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      03-07-2012, 09:10 PM   #1
cvc 22349a
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RE toe links review

First of all, I have to apologize for the picture size. I can't figure out how to reduce it for the life of me...
Ever since I got rid of the runflats due to poor grip and ride quality, I've been sinking a boatload of money into my suspension because my car felt sloppy (vertically, horizontally, laterally) and underdamped with 235/265 PS2's and the added torque of the GIAC tune. To make it brief and to the point, my last susp mod was to install the Rogue Engineering toe links that I got from HPA. The M3 rear subframe bushings go a long way in reducing the rear end slop, but since uprading them, what's bothered me most is the excessive lateral movement or torque steer of the rear end, specifically when passing another car hard on a two lane mountain road (which I do alot) and to a lesser extent in hard cornering. When passing, the rear end torque steered which is an uncontrolled/unnerving feeling. Well, the RE toe links have eliminated that The rear end is very planted in corners and when passing the rear follows the front as it should! These links have increased rear end noise and harshness on city streets, but I don't notice it as much on the hwy (at least not the noise). If this gets worse, I may look for another solution. There is a small tradeoff for the improved lateral stability. I'm hoping Meyle or Lemforder will make HD bushings for the oe toe links; we'll see.
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      03-08-2012, 12:57 AM   #2
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Nice, thanks for that review! When you mention increased noise, what sort of noise is it? You're not hearing the spherical joints creak or rub are you?
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      03-08-2012, 03:09 AM   #3
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Looks like you have the M3 arms on there too right? Did you put them on before this? I'd imaging the M3 arms would make more of a difference than the RE ones, but sounds like from your review the toe links helped a lot too.
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      03-08-2012, 01:30 PM   #4
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Nice, thanks for that review! When you mention increased noise, what sort of noise is it? You're not hearing the spherical joints creak or rub are you?
Not sure. Will report back to you. It's just louder in the rear. Maybe metal on metal sound?
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      03-08-2012, 01:41 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chowbow View Post
Looks like you have the M3 arms on there too right? Did you put them on before this? I'd imaging the M3 arms would make more of a difference than the RE ones, but sounds like from your review the toe links helped a lot too.
I already had the M3 guide rods but added the M3 upper links at the same time as the RE toe links. I just read something that Harold at HPA wrote about the OE links allowing too much change in rear toe during hard cornering. That's probably what I referred to as lateral movement and why I had the RE links installed. Yes, these links definately 'help' rear stability in cornering and passing. I didn't get 'em because I couldn't get rear toe to spec. due to lowering. Rear toe is set as before the RE links install at .08d.
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      03-08-2012, 01:48 PM   #6
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Nice review, thanks for that! I had them installed in my car as well a few weeks back, but haven't been able to test it properly due to the weather and other things. I'm looking forward to give it a go on the Nürburgring in a few weeks which should allow me to say more about all this.

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      03-08-2012, 01:48 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cvc 22349a View Post
I already had the M3 guide rods but added the M3 upper links at the same time as the RE toe links. I just read something that Harold at HPA wrote about the OE links allowing too much change in rear toe during hard cornering. That's probably what I referred to as lateral movement and why I had the RE links installed. Yes, these links definately 'help' rear stability in cornering and passing. I didn't get 'em because I couldn't get rear toe to spec. due to lowering. Rear toe is set as before the RE links install at .08d.
Good to know. I am able to get my rear toe within spec (just barely) with the stock arms and lowered 1". I'm not surprised that the stock rear links have a lot of flex, the stamped steel pieces just aren't that beefy.

I'm just considering between doing the M3 arms and the rear toe arms, or the Hotchkis arms and rear toe arms. Price is negligible, but the Hotchkis is adjustable and have spherical joints. A bit worried about the noise and racket those 3 arms are going to make if they all have spherical joints... While the M3 ones will be quiet since they're still bushings.
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      03-08-2012, 01:54 PM   #8
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Nice review, thanks for that! I had them installed in my car as well a few weeks back, but haven't been able to test it properly due to the weather and other things. I'm looking forward to give it a go on the Nürburgring in a few weeks which should allow me to say more about all this.

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I'm sure you'll find added rear stability in cornering. Any added rear end noise or harshness for you? I just wanted to mention that for those considering these links.
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      03-08-2012, 01:58 PM   #9
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Is it kind of a clicking or light clunking sound? Not really squeaking or groaning, but the best I can explain spherical joint noise is clicking and maybe light chatter. I've ridden in friends' cars that have full spherical links and they're pretty noisy, especially when ALL the control arms have been changed out.
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      03-08-2012, 02:00 PM   #10
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Good to know. I am able to get my rear toe within spec (just barely) with the stock arms and lowered 1". I'm not surprised that the stock rear links have a lot of flex, the stamped steel pieces just aren't that beefy.

I'm just considering between doing the M3 arms and the rear toe arms, or the Hotchkis arms and rear toe arms. Price is negligible, but the Hotchkis is adjustable and have spherical joints. A bit worried about the noise and racket those 3 arms are going to make if they all have spherical joints... While the M3 ones will be quiet since they're still bushings.
I can't comment on the Hotchkis arms; I'm guessing you're talking about the guide rods and upper links? M3 imo. Don't you live in SF? I think you'll find a major increase in NVH on those crappy streets w/all 3 links having spherical joints.
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      03-08-2012, 02:01 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chowbow View Post
Is it kind of a clicking or light clunking sound? Not really squeaking or groaning, but the best I can explain spherical joint noise is clicking and maybe light chatter. I've ridden in friends' cars that have full spherical links and they're pretty noisy, especially when ALL the control arms have been changed out.
light clunking may be the best description..
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      03-08-2012, 02:59 PM   #12
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I can't comment on the Hotchkis arms; I'm guessing you're talking about the guide rods and upper links? M3 imo. Don't you live in SF? I think you'll find a major increase in NVH on those crappy streets w/all 3 links having spherical joints.
Yep. Although I pretty much drive my car to the track / autoX, and then park it back in the garage. I'll take it out on some weekends and long trips but I have an E36 daily driver so I'm not hugely worried about day to day noise. Regardless, I'm leaning towards the M3 arms because I don't want to make the E90 an actual track car by any means.
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      03-08-2012, 08:11 PM   #13
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Meyle HD toe links

Just got off of the phone with Meyle about HD toe links or just bushings. They're going to see if it's feasible to make a HD part. Probably should have looked into it prior to buying the RE toe links If Meyle does this, I'll definately try them. For a DD that's only lowered a half inch, the spherical joints of the RE links are a bit much. But again, the rear end doesn't give out in corners as before and they seem to have eliminated that nasty torque steer when passing hard.
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      03-09-2012, 01:25 AM   #14
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light clunking may be the best description..
If you are hear a metal type noise this is lose link for sure so recheck the mounting points and jam nut on the toe link. I don't have single rubber bushing in my car including the sub frame bushing and I do not get any noise or any vibrations.

Anyway, you may want to check Megan toe arms. Megan is ODM Company which means they make nothing in general and rebrand form other established companies. The company who makes these links is a very well established mid volume vendor. The ball joint is made with a nylon race ball joint and are sealed so they will last a long time and are quiet. The ball joint is the same design as you will see in a M3 ball joint or any OEM car. Nylon is one of the best plastics for dampening noise and vibration. Attach is picture of the ball joint design in the Megan toe arm. Also the arm is made of hollow steel and it going to be 3 times stronger/stiffer than any aluminum adjustable toe link. They also make stiff rubber toe link as well but it be will 150% stiffer than stock.

Last edited by Orb; 11-17-2013 at 01:44 PM.
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      03-09-2012, 01:44 PM   #15
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^ I've seen you mention those toe arms before; probably should have looked at them instead of RE; oh well. Will recheck bolt tightness at the links, but it's not really a clunking sound I hear; just louder in the rear like more metal.
Sell me those toe links you designed a few years ago I see that's what HPA puts on their shop cars..
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      03-09-2012, 02:07 PM   #16
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Not to take it off topic, but FYI only, Megan Racing also makes the rear upper camber arm too. I'd assume it was the same type of bushings, and they are adjustable. Having installed and raced my friend's car with some of the Megan stuff, I will say it didn't last as long as he had hoped for - although we were autocrossing that car religiously and with slicks. On a not-so-beat-on car, hopefully they last quite a bit longer.
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      03-09-2012, 02:38 PM   #17
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^ Not OT at all. Thx for the info. It's just my experience so far with the RE toe links; they do what I wanted; just transmit more noise into the cabin; definately open to other/better solutions.
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      03-10-2012, 01:31 AM   #18
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^ I've seen you mention those toe arms before; probably should have looked at them instead of RE; oh well. Will recheck bolt tightness at the links, but it's not really a clunking sound I hear; just louder in the rear like more metal.
Sell me those toe links you designed a few years ago I see that's what HPA puts on their shop cars..
You may also check to see if the spring hits the toe arm by looking or rub marks. There is not much room as you can see that oem link has a cut out.

I did find a low cost high quality OEM type bearing that would work with a M3 replica arm. Price would go for about 350.00 retail for a set now but i am not getting into making parts for little pay back. If you want the drawing and CAD files for the oem arm i did a few years ago then PM me but it not goign to be cheap to make one set.
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      03-10-2012, 01:49 PM   #19
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You may also check to see if the spring hits the toe arm by looking or rub marks. There is not much room as you can see that oem link has a cut out.

I did find a low cost high quality OEM type bearing that would work with a M3 replica arm. Price would go for about 350.00 retail for a set now but i am not getting into making parts for little pay back. If you want the drawing and CAD files for the oem arm i did a few years ago then PM me but it not goign to be cheap to make one set.

No evidence of rubbing on the spring or toe arm. Looks like there's enough clearance by this pic. Rod end bolts are torqued to spec. I think it's just that the spherical joints transmit more of metal sound and road noise to the cabin. Thx for the offer but that's over my head/budget. My oe links are going to another member who's looking into replacing the oe bushings w/HD bearings..
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      03-11-2012, 03:41 PM   #20
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No evidence of rubbing on the spring or toe arm. Looks like there's enough clearance by this pic. Rod end bolts are torqued to spec. I think it's just that the spherical joints transmit more of metal sound and road noise to the cabin. Thx for the offer but that's over my head/budget. My oe links are going to another member who's looking into replacing the oe bushings w/HD bearings..
No problem, if any want the to make thier own links I wouldn't have to much problem giving anway the drawing, CAD files and BOM to do so if it not used to profit.

I sugested looking at the link as when the suspension moves up it swings back as well so the clearnaces you see now from the spring to the toe arm decreses a fair amount. You may have some not so great end links as well but in general they should be quiet for a while. The HD busing is a good option and they are the same as the rear supseison lower trailing link.
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      03-11-2012, 04:04 PM   #21
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First of all, I have to apologize for the picture size. I can't figure out how to reduce it for the life of me...
Ever since I got rid of the runflats due to poor grip and ride quality, I've been sinking a boatload of money into my suspension because my car felt sloppy (vertically, horizontally, laterally) and underdamped with 235/265 PS2's and the added torque of the GIAC tune.
Nothing beats an LSD in high horsepowered 335I's. Nothing else will help you plant the rear. If you don't already have one or can't afford one, then you should put in the M3 rear toe arms. They are stiffer, and should be far more superior to those RE's.
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      03-11-2012, 05:02 PM   #22
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Nothing beats an LSD in high horsepowered 335I's. Nothing else will help you plant the rear. If you don't already have one or can't afford one, then you should put in the M3 rear toe arms. They are stiffer, and should be far more superior to those RE's.
Quaife LSD was my very first mod 4 yrs ago. Best mod to the 335i no doubt.
M3 rear toe links don't fit non-M cars.
I don't know that M3 toe links are stiffer than RE or other aftermarket links anyway. A few M3 track drivers have switched out their toe links for aftermarket.
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