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      07-23-2012, 04:31 PM   #89
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What difference(s) do you feel, hear with the delrin diff bushings?
The delrin diff bushings are a must in my opinion for cars that are having issues with hop/tracking. The Turner delrin diff bushings along with the M3 guide rods eliminated wheel hop on my car. My car pushed the rear out hard under tire spin prior to the bushings and that 95% gone now. I did a lot of upgrades at once, so I hate to single out one thing as the only contributor.

NVH is negligable with full interior. I can hear slight gear whine on deceleration at about 3k+ rpms, but nothing that bothers me and it is inaudible with the stereo on. There is no extra vibration or harmonics whatsover on my car.

I did change over to TOYO R888 tires and now the car is hooking like mad! It is a wild ride now.
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      08-04-2012, 03:28 AM   #90
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Have Velocity Toe links from HP ruined in no time. Changed ends and they are bad again. Whats the consensus on the best toe link?
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      08-04-2012, 04:27 AM   #91
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Have Velocity Toe links from HP ruined in no time. Changed ends and they are bad again. Whats the consensus on the best toe link?
Refer back to Orb's post (#14) on page 1. The Megan arms use a sealed ball joint that is the same as the M3 toe arms. The Megan arms will be stiffer than any aluminum arm as well. Mine are getting installed in 2 weeks time. I can report back after some usage. Tres has been running them over a year with no issues as well.

Megan Toe Arms:


M3 Toe Arms:


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      08-06-2012, 06:31 AM   #92
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I need to see this review.. Thank you~
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      08-28-2012, 10:44 PM   #93
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Had my RE toe arms inspected last week at VAC - they're not in good shape. Working for now. Installed six months ago, put on 3,xxx since inc. 8 track days ... yep ...
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      08-28-2012, 11:04 PM   #94
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Had my RE toe arms inspected last week at VAC - they're not in good shape. Working for now. Installed six months ago, put on 3,xxx since inc. 8 track days ... yep ...
I was thinking I was the only guy to have a problem with them. New spherical bearings are $30/ea. if you want to keep replacing them.
There are better options
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      08-29-2012, 02:50 AM   #95
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I had contacted the USA Meyle rep a couple months ago about HD bushings for the rear links [...] Anyway, just had them installed today and the rear is nice and quiet now. We'll see how the rear tracks when I'm up in the mtns. next week. The RE toe arms and M3 subframe bushings didn't totally eliminate the rear end dog legging/tracking problem I've had during hard accel and passing. My tuning shop says an M3 rear sway bar would help, but I'm not going that route. [...]
Hi CVC! Discouraging to see these problems continuing on like this! Depending on what's happening in the suspension I wonder if much stiffer shocks could help, although I guess you're not exactly anxious to buy another set of shocks. I'm just trying to find some facts to fit my theory...

Anyway, my thought on reading this was, maybe at some point it would be worth finding some modded 335i that doesn't have these issues, and figure out why. Sort of work the problem the other way.

Hope the HDs are working out well!
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      08-29-2012, 08:57 AM   #96
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I was thinking I was the only guy to have a problem with them. New spherical bearings are $30/ea. if you want to keep replacing them.
There are better options
I am about to go see Ivo my mechanic who put these on for an oil change, plugs and a new reverse flow sensor for my meth kit.... I'll have him check the toe arms to see if I am still good or not. Maybe this is what my prob is, the worn out toe arms are causing my tracking issue.

CVC, I didn't change the rear camber arms - the main arms that hold the spindle. Those can be replaced, and have quite a few bushings. Has anybody done those ones?
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      08-29-2012, 09:28 AM   #97
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Hi CVC! Discouraging to see these problems continuing on like this! Depending on what's happening in the suspension I wonder if much stiffer shocks could help, although I guess you're not exactly anxious to buy another set of shocks. I'm just trying to find some facts to fit my theory...

Anyway, my thought on reading this was, maybe at some point it would be worth finding some modded 335i that doesn't have these issues, and figure out why. Sort of work the problem the other way.

Hope the HDs are working out well!
Hey Luckyu,
Haven't seen you in a while.
The rear end tracking issue under hard accel. isn't related to my rear shocks. Koni Sports are plenty stiff for the street. It's the damn rear suspension bushings designed for rft's. Increase grip and torque and the rear suspension becomes anything but precise. 'Orb' says the subframe bushings, rear toe links and diff bushings are the primary culprits. My tech says an M3 rear roll bar would help alot with rear end tracking; I agree but I'm not going that route.
I've resigned myself to live with it. I just modulate the throttle instead of nailing it when I pass on a 2 lane road and it's all good I do notice a bit more rear stability with the Meyle rear toe links v. oe, so it was worth my effort. My RE toe links are going to another member who primarily tracks his car and doesn't mind a little (or lot) clunking noises.
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      08-29-2012, 09:38 AM   #98
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[quote=DaFish;12590063]I am about to go see Ivo my mechanic who put these on for an oil change, plugs and a new reverse flow sensor for my meth kit.... I'll have him check the toe arms to see if I am still good or not. Maybe this is what my prob is, the worn out toe arms are causing my tracking issue.

CVC, I didn't change the rear camber arms - the main arms that hold the spindle. Those can be replaced, and have quite a few bushings. Has anybody done those ones?[/QUOTE]

A ton of people have, but you'd need new shocks and springs. That's probably the most beneficial rear susp linkage to replace but would have a lesser effect on rear tracking than other components.
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      08-31-2012, 12:30 PM   #99
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I am about to go see Ivo my mechanic who put these on for an oil change, plugs and a new reverse flow sensor for my meth kit.... I'll have him check the toe arms to see if I am still good or not. Maybe this is what my prob is, the worn out toe arms are causing my tracking issue.

CVC, I didn't change the rear camber arms - the main arms that hold the spindle. Those can be replaced, and have quite a few bushings. Has anybody done those ones?
DaFish,

Might as well have him inspect your diff bushings and check for irregular tire wear while he's at it.

Ivo did some rear end work on my car last week; Wavetrac LSD, m3 bushings/sway and Megan Racing Toe arms. Still on stock spring/shocks, upper links, guide rods and diff bushings. New tires all around.

Our driving habits may be different but your tracking issue appears to be an isolated case. If I'm on the highway and downshift from 6th-3rd going WOT, the car moves straiiiiight. No dancing, no need to correct steering, no drama. Same case for a 4-2 downshift. On occasion, I can move the rear on a WOT 1-2 shift, but nothing that really annoys me.

I'd guess it's a worn out bushing that you have yet to replace or it's related to your tires. Post your alignment results in your other thread to get more feedback.
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      08-31-2012, 04:39 PM   #100
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Had my RE toe arms inspected last week at VAC - they're not in good shape. Working for now. Installed six months ago, put on 3,xxx since inc. 8 track days ... yep ...
crap you should have got them inspected 3 weeks ago!!!

just got the REs put on, they feel great. they clean a lot of slop out of the rear. have no clunking. no noticeable gain in NVH. i do not track too often so i wonder how long they will last??

car goes straight any time i step on it, but i also am at the stock power level!
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      08-31-2012, 05:46 PM   #101
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crap you should have got them inspected 3 weeks ago!!!

just got the REs put on, they feel great. they clean a lot of slop out of the rear. have no clunking. no noticeable gain in NVH. i do not track too often so i wonder how long they will last??

car goes straight any time i step on it, but i also am at the stock power level!
It sounds like they will last longer for you than me based on wear - we'll see! I will ask VAC next time I'm there more about what is wrong with them, maybe get a few pics.
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      08-31-2012, 11:49 PM   #102
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DaFish,

Might as well have him inspect your diff bushings and check for irregular tire wear while he's at it.

Ivo did some rear end work on my car last week; Wavetrac LSD, m3 bushings/sway and Megan Racing Toe arms. Still on stock spring/shocks, upper links, guide rods and diff bushings. New tires all around.

Our driving habits may be different but your tracking issue appears to be an isolated case. If I'm on the highway and downshift from 6th-3rd going WOT, the car moves straiiiiight. No dancing, no need to correct steering, no drama. Same case for a 4-2 downshift. On occasion, I can move the rear on a WOT 1-2 shift, but nothing that really annoys me.

I'd guess it's a worn out bushing that you have yet to replace or it's related to your tires. Post your alignment results in your other thread to get more feedback.
His rear tracking issue under wot is definately not an isolated case.
Could be alignment, could be soft oe or worn bushings.
You're fortunate you don't have that problem.
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      09-01-2012, 03:41 PM   #103
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its disappointing to hear they will wear out. do the Megan ones last longer?
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      09-01-2012, 05:59 PM   #104
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Hey Luckyu,
Haven't seen you in a while.
The rear end tracking issue under hard accel. isn't related to my rear shocks. Koni Sports are plenty stiff for the street. It's the damn rear suspension bushings designed for rft's. Increase grip and torque and the rear suspension becomes anything but precise. 'Orb' says the subframe bushings, rear toe links and diff bushings are the primary culprits.
Hey! Yeah I've been away for a while and haven't been reading the forum. I did go back and read this thread though. I thought you posted recently that the RE toe arms & subframe bushings did not entirely solve the toe changes on hard acceleration. That's kind of what prompted me to reply. Do you feel that the OE toe arm bushings are more or less the cause of these problems?

For others... When I was shopping for toe arms a few months ago, I compared the Megans with the Rogue/HPA parts. They are very similar designs. Both are adjustable length. I believe both designs use spherical bearings. Actually we know RE uses spherical bearings, such as those made by Aurora Bearing Company, and they are almost certainly an off-the-shelf part. The difference between the products lies in how the bearings are sealed, and the arm itself. RE makes an attempt to seal the bearings using little rubber-metal thingies on each end, made by Seals It. The Megans are sealed too, and I don't know the details. The Ground Control arms use Seals It boots, going by the photo.

The Megan arm is made of steel and Orb says it is significantly stronger than the aluminum arm used by RE.

P.S. there could also be differences in the bearing, like the nylon or teflon coating used on the bearing. Aurora offers all these options on their products, and those of you who want to understand the details can take a look at ABC's web site. Also they can refer to Orb's earlier post where he describes the Megan product. Orb seems to have an inside track to all kinds of info...
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      09-01-2012, 10:09 PM   #105
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Hey! Yeah I've been away for a while and haven't been reading the forum. I did go back and read this thread though. I thought you posted recently that the RE toe arms & subframe bushings did not entirely solve the toe changes on hard acceleration. That's kind of what prompted me to reply. Do you feel that the OE toe arm bushings are more or less the cause of these problems?

For others... When I was shopping for toe arms a few months ago, I compared the Megans with the Rogue/HPA parts. They are very similar designs. Both are adjustable length. I believe both designs use spherical bearings. Actually we know RE uses spherical bearings, such as those made by Aurora Bearing Company, and they are almost certainly an off-the-shelf part. The difference between the products lies in how the bearings are sealed, and the arm itself. RE makes an attempt to seal the bearings using little rubber-metal thingies on each end, made by Seals It. The Megans are sealed too, and I don't know the details. The Ground Control arms use Seals It boots, going by the photo.

The Megan arm is made of steel and Orb says it is significantly stronger than the aluminum arm used by RE.

P.S. there could also be differences in the bearing, like the nylon or teflon coating used on the bearing. Aurora offers all these options on their products, and those of you who want to understand the details can take a look at ABC's web site. Also they can refer to Orb's earlier post where he describes the Megan product. Orb seems to have an inside track to all kinds of info...
As previously mentioned, I think the soft oe toe arm bushings along with soft oe differential bushings and the rather soft M3 subframe bushings all contribute to a lack of rear straight tracking under wot.
I doubt you experience this in your 328i with 225 rear tires.
The RE toe arms have spherical joints; the Megan toe arms have ball joints.
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      09-02-2012, 04:40 PM   #106
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As previously mentioned, I think the soft oe toe arm bushings along with soft oe differential bushings and the rather soft M3 subframe bushings all contribute to a lack of rear straight tracking under wot.
I doubt you experience this in your 328i with 225 rear tires.
The RE toe arms have spherical joints; the Megan toe arms have ball joints.
Right, I believe I haven't experienced the problem. I'm trying to find out, was your dogtracking in fact cured, when the RE toe arms were on? I'm mostly just curious at this point, I probably won't upgrade but I can't stop thinking about what's needed back there...!
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      09-18-2012, 01:12 AM   #107
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I got GC rear toe links, rear sway bar end links and front sway bar end links installed around June. I'm have a lot of noise front my rear passenger side!

I have ohlins with swift springs, wavetrac LSD, m3 subframe bushings, m3 lower control arms as well. I'm getting clunking sounds now. Still trying to track down. Never had these issues with the velocity toe arms and stock rear sway end links so has to be the newer links. Pain in the ass!
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      09-18-2012, 12:53 PM   #108
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What type of joints do those GC toe links have? If they're spherical bearings like RE and VM, they'll get noisy.

If I were to replace my oe toe arms again, I'd get BMW Motorsport group N bushings from Turner and press them in to my oe toe arms and never deal with them again.
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      09-18-2012, 02:44 PM   #109
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Those looking at toe links or any other suspension linkage should consider any product offered suspect regardless of the vendor. Only a small number of vendors offer well engineered products but most are just horrific in their execution (or lack of). If one looks beyond in the hype and looks closely at the mechanic aspect you will select a better product.

Toe Link:

The toe link structure is limited to maximum diameter (thickness) of about 21 mm since it will hit the spring if it larger than this. Given the design approach this leaves you with no geometry options so we can just look at the materials. Steel Alloy is 3 times strong and stiffer than aluminum. The only stiffer material is carbon fiber. The OEM link is magnitudes stiffer and stronger than the steel round bar adjustable link due to its geometry. I have run several FEA simulation of toe link designs and can without a doubt say that aluminum round bar at 21 mm is not safe in a crash or in a high load situation. The design goal of BMW was to have the lower front link buckle from a crash so your suspension doesn’t puncture the fuel tank. If you think that you aluminum link was engineered then I would ask the vendor for proof they did some due diligence… I expect none.

Spherical Bearing:

The majority of spherical bearing on the market are lined with Teflon based materials and the ball and race are made from steel. The bearing vendors provide data sheets for load and surface speed capacity of each bearing size and the respective materials. A vast majority of these bearing would not be suitable for automotive application due to the bearing high surface speed requirement. If you have a suspension link with low end bearing it would be likely that it is not suitable for this application. Unsealed bearing of this type wear exponentially with small amounts of contamination (life measured in hours or even minutes). A bearing is considered to be worn out at when the friction level hits 0.25 and not when it starts making noise. Generally, Teflon lined bearing are a poor choice for an automotive application since even the best quality bearing have a reality short life when compared to alternative designs and materials. If the bearing life doesn’t matter and ultimate stiffness / feel is desired then this would be and good choice.

The best possible spherical bearing design for automotive application is a steel ball with a plastic race that is lubed and sealed. This type of design works well with high bearing surface speeds and can be preloaded as desired. You will find this type of design in high end OEM cars like the M3. The life of this bearing is going to about 20 times longer than the best Teflon lined bearing. The bearing also reduces NVH a great deal. There is little or no difference in joint stiffness when compared to Teflon lined bearing. Hardrace (aka Megan) links are designed with this methodology. You can also get roll bar end links for Turner Motorsports that use this design as well.

Last edited by Orb; 09-18-2012 at 09:53 PM.
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      09-21-2012, 09:41 AM   #110
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The best possible spherical bearing design for automotive application is a steel ball with a plastic race that is lubed and sealed. This type of design works well with high bearing surface speeds and can be preloaded as desired. You will find this type of design in high end OEM cars like the M3. The life of this bearing is going to about 20 times longer than the best Teflon lined bearing. The bearing also reduces NVH a great deal. There is little or no difference in joint stiffness when compared to Teflon lined bearing. Hardrace (aka Megan) links are designed with this methodology. You can also get roll bar end links for Turner Motorsports that use this design as well.
Orb, thanks for the input. I see that Megan Racing also offers the rear "Camber" (Upper Link) and the "Trailing Arm" (actually Guide Rods). Are these also made by Hardrace, with the same joint design as the Toe Arms? Do they make any impact in reducing wheel hop?
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