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      07-24-2012, 09:41 AM   #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90SLAM View Post
Thanks for the clarification. But I do not think race ban is justified.
Given the words of the regulation, Red Bull did not violate any of it; and FIA cannot pose penalties just because of the "spirit of the rule".
The issue here is that they are using the mapping as form of Traction Control and that is absolutely unacceptable. The rules clearly states no traction control.

As to the point of changing the rules mid season well yes. It becomes an issue of managing cost. If they let it be legal the others have to invest a shit load of money to catch up only for the rules to make it illegal next year.
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      07-24-2012, 11:03 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by MrClean335i View Post
The issue here is that they are using the mapping as form of Traction Control and that is absolutely unacceptable. The rules clearly states no traction control.

As to the point of changing the rules mid season well yes. It becomes an issue of managing cost. If they let it be legal the others have to invest a shit load of money to catch up only for the rules to make it illegal next year.
I'm not 100% familiar with that particular regulation, but they banned all conventional traction control system. But what Red Bull Racing did was an alternate way to control rear traction. Which apparently the regulation overlooked or never thought of when they wrote the rules.
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      07-24-2012, 11:11 AM   #333
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FIA set to force Red Bull to change engine mapping

Not saying RBR is complete illegal. But FIA is acting to close the loophole of the regulation before this weekend's race in Hungary.

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Red Bull Racing is set to be forced to make changes to the engine mapping of its cars for this weekend's Hungarian Grand Prix, AUTOSPORT has learned, with the FIA poised to issue a clarification in the next 48 hours on the matter.

Following the controversy at Hockenheim on Sunday, when Red Bull Racing was referred to the stewards to explain why its cars were operating with engine maps that had reduced torque in the mid rpm range, motor racing's governing body is now close to acting.

AUTOSPORT understands that the FIA is planning to issue an official clarification on the matter before action gets underway in Budapest on Friday.

This document is almost certain to make it clear that what Red Bull Racing was doing in Germany will no longer be deemed acceptable.

Sources suggest that the FIA will lay down specific limits on the variations of torque that can be used throughout the rev range - with Red Bull Racing believed to have been using much less than the maximum available torque in the middle rev range.

It is understood that the new limit could allow as little tolerance in torque as two per cent, which is believed to be well inside the variation shown on the engine map used by Red Bull Racing at the German GP.

By having a greater variation in its engine mapping, Red Bull Racing was able to both minimise wheelspin and also pump more gases through its engines, therefore helping the aerodynamic benefits that the outfit still gets through the use of exhaust flow at the rear of the car.

Although Formula 1 technical delegate Jo Bauer believed that Red Bull Racing's engine maps were in breach of the regulations in Germany, the race stewards did not agree - even though they also did not accept the team's explanations of what was happening.

Red Bull Racing team principal Christian Horner was keen to play down the matter at Hockenheim, suggesting that he never had any doubt his team was in compliance with the regulations.

"Unfortunately, when you have a quick car, it's inevitable that questions are asked," he said. "F1 is a competitive business.

"The rules are pretty black and white and having looked at the evidence, the data, they [the stewards] were fully satisfied. That's the nature of Formula 1 at the end of the day. Of course, you are always going to get other teams that are going to speculate."

Even if the FIA rule clarification does mean Red Bull Racing has to make changes to its engine maps, it should be a fairly simply matter for the team to revert to settings that it used without problem earlier in the campaign.
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      07-24-2012, 04:19 PM   #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90SLAM View Post
But one thing to point out, does anyone agree the FIA should amend the rule "mid-season"? Or they should rephrase the regulation after the 2012 season is over.

As long as the FIA doesn't make it like a confusing drama like last year's British Grand Prix. Changing regulation after P3 or Qualifying session on Saturday. Then revert the decision back on Sunday morning.
I think imposing a rule change mid-season would look like favortism to the team who 'violated' the rule. In the current 'violation', RBR is being accused (and found guilty of?) of throttle mapping in such a way that could act as traction control. Pedal-to-power ratio as i'm going to call it (PPR).

Now say FIA changes the rule to give a +/-10% PPR, then RBR currently being ~ -20% would just change the mapping to be within that +/-10%, still having an advantage. HOWEVER...if the rule did get changed, then OTHER teams have the same leeway I suppose.

IMO, see EBD last year. They were talking about changing the rule midseason but decided to let it go through until the offseason, at which time it was changed.
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      07-24-2012, 04:21 PM   #335
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Wtf, was Kimi drunk at the track again?!
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      07-25-2012, 12:33 AM   #336
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a breakdown of what all is in the sauber cutaway

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      07-25-2012, 10:48 AM   #337
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Marko accuses FIA of overtaking rule double standard

The official 2012 Formula 1 Big Mouth winner is Melmut Marko!
Can he just STFU!!!

Quote:
Jul.24 (GMM) Red Bull’s motor racing consultant Helmut Marko has accused the FIA of sometimes using a “double standard” when it comes to dishing out penalties.

Sebastian Vettel on Sunday was demoted from second at the flag to fifth in the classification after passing Jenson Button whilst off the circuit at Hockenheim.

Marko insists his driver did nothing wrong.

“The whole situation was triggered by Button, who left Sebastian no room and pushed him out,” the Austrian told Servus TV.

“Sebastian had to move out to avoid a collision.”

Many pundits likened Vettel’s move to Nico Rosberg’s overtaking antics in Bahrain, for which the German escaped penalty.

Marko pointed out that “the defendant” is often given “the benefit of the doubt”.

“That wasn’t the case now [for Vettel],” he said. “There is a bad aftertaste. There is a double standard.”

Unfortunately for Marko, most paddock residents do not agree with him, including Force India driver Nico Hulkenberg who said Vettel’s move was “not right”.

“The rules are very specific,” ORF commentator Alex Wurz agreed. “You can leave the track with all four wheels as long as you [gain] no advantage.”

Former Toro Rosso driver Jaime Alguersuari added: “I think Vettel’s overtaking was totally illegal.

“He was clearly outside the boundaries of the track.”

Subbed by AJN.
http://www.yallaf1.com/2012/07/24/ma...uble-standard/
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      07-25-2012, 11:00 AM   #338
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Formula 1 bosses have introduced a rule change to outlaw controversial engine settings on the Red Bull.
Quote:
The ruling specifies the limits within which maps can be changed from race to race, as well as other settings.
The FIA's concern in Germany was that Red Bull were using reduced torque settings for a given engine speed. It felt these could act as a form of traction control, limiting wheelspin out of corners.

Rival teams believe Red Bull's actions also allowed them to make more effective use of the exhaust gases for aerodynamic effect.

Governing body the FIA found that Red Bull's engine was delivering less torque at full throttle in the mid-range of the engine's rev band in Germany than it had at the preceding British Grand Prix.

They said this was a breach of article 5.5.3 of the technical regulations, which states that the "maximum accelerator travel position must correspond to an engine torque demand equal to or greater than the maximum engine torque at the measured engine speed".
The verdict on Sunday said: "While the stewards do not accept all the arguments of the team, they however conclude that as the regulation is written the map presented does not breach article 5.5.3 of the technical regulations."

The idea of the rule is to prevent the engine delivering less power to the wheels than it can do.
But while the FIA intended it to mean that the engine could not deliver less torque than it was ultimately capable of, Red Bull interpreted it to mean it could not deliver less than it was programmed to deliver on that day.




As teams are allowed to change their engine maps from race to race, Red Bull were cleared because there was no definition of how big these changes could be before they were not allowed.
The FIA has attempted to close the loophole with a new rule that asks teams to nominate any one engine map used in the first four races of the season as a "reference" map.

The clarification says: "Above 6,000rpm, the maximum engine torque may vary by no more than +/- 2% (from the reference map).
"And the ignition angle may vary by no more than 2.5%."

Retarding the ignition is a common method of employing engine braking, but was also used last year by teams to blow exhaust gases on to rear bodywork when the driver was not pressing the accelerator pedal.
Retarding the ignition in this way ensures the throttles can be left open when the driver is not pressing the accelerator.

This means air continues to blow out of the exhaust and on to aerodynamically sensitive rear bodywork without the rear wheels pushing the car forwards.
This was last year's must-have technology and was known as exhaust-blown diffusers. The FIA introduced rule changes with the intention of banning it this year.
But although off-throttle blowing has been banned, and the exhausts must now exit in an area that is much less aerodynamically sensitive, most leading teams are still trying to harness exhaust gases and use them for aerodynamics as much as possible.

However, the spotlight has fallen only on Red Bull when it comes to controversial engine settings.
It will be a simple matter for Red Bull to switch back to an earlier map but it is unknown whether it will affect their relative competitiveness, or whether the rule change will affect other leading teams.

BBC
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      07-25-2012, 02:00 PM   #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90SLAM View Post
Not saying RBR is complete illegal. But FIA is acting to close the loophole of the regulation before this weekend's race in Hungary.
Red Bull knows what the intent of the regulation is. No traction control. Just because they found a loophole dosen't make it right. They cheated.
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      07-25-2012, 02:19 PM   #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrClean335i View Post
Red Bull knows what the intent of the regulation is. No traction control. Just because they found a loophole dosen't make it right. They cheated.
You can say they cheated. But how Sky described what red Bull did was like a tax accountant. Adrian Newey is like a good accountant to find loopholes to "maximize" the performance of the car. As the account will maximize the tax reduction.

Like the DDD and Blown diffuser and off throttle blown exhaust, the "rules" didn't clarify enough. The technically they did not break the text of the rules.

Yes, this engine mapping and DDD violated the "spirit" of the rule. But just by that cannot place any penalty of the rules.

Anyways, rules being clarified now.
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      07-25-2012, 11:33 PM   #341
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I'm just afraid that people are getting TOO clever and there's going to come a point that the rules get too restrictive and hinders the sport as a whole.

Example: HRT starts winning
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      07-26-2012, 12:22 AM   #342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90SLAM View Post
You can say they cheated. But how Sky described what red Bull did was like a tax accountant. Adrian Newey is like a good accountant to find loopholes to "maximize" the performance of the car. As the account will maximize the tax reduction.

Like the DDD and Blown diffuser and off throttle blown exhaust, the "rules" didn't clarify enough. The technically they did not break the text of the rules.

Yes, this engine mapping and DDD violated the "spirit" of the rule. But just by that cannot place any penalty of the rules.

Anyways, rules being clarified now.
Spot on.

The time-honored tradition of exploiting loopholes...intelligent maneuvering to one person, cheating to another. Might as well be derivatives. If you're not one step ahead of the regulations, you're two steps behind.

I wish I could comprehend what goes on in Adrian Newey's brain. It would be amazing to see what could be done if safety was the only regulated concern.
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      07-26-2012, 05:39 AM   #343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koop View Post
Spot on.

The time-honored tradition of exploiting loopholes...intelligent maneuvering to one person, cheating to another. Might as well be derivatives. If you're not one step ahead of the regulations, you're two steps behind.

I wish I could comprehend what goes on in Adrian Newey's brain. It would be amazing to see what could be done if safety was the only regulated concern.
It was clearly deemed as cheating by the FIA and that's why they laid the ban hammer on them. If it was intelligent maneuver they wouldn't have been so quick to put a stop to it. Only Red Bull fans praise the trickery of Newey. He is brilliant but he is taking it too far. An unfair advantage is an unfair advantage.
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      07-26-2012, 09:24 AM   #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrClean335i
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koop View Post
Spot on.

The time-honored tradition of exploiting loopholes...intelligent maneuvering to one person, cheating to another. Might as well be derivatives. If you're not one step ahead of the regulations, you're two steps behind.

I wish I could comprehend what goes on in Adrian Newey's brain. It would be amazing to see what could be done if safety was the only regulated concern.
It was clearly deemed as cheating by the FIA and that's why they laid the ban hammer on them. If it was intelligent maneuver they wouldn't have been so quick to put a stop to it. Only Red Bull fans praise the trickery of Newey. He is brilliant but he is taking it too far. An unfair advantage is an unfair advantage.
Newey's taking it too far??? It's the name of the game. Quit whining and accept the fact that this is what F1 is about. He's a genius aerodynamicist and will continue to push the rules. All teams do it. He's just better at it.
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      07-26-2012, 10:37 AM   #345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johanness View Post
Newey's taking it too far??? It's the name of the game. Quit whining and accept the fact that this is what F1 is about. He's a genius aerodynamicist and will continue to push the rules. All teams do it. He's just better at it.
Too far? I don't think so.
You cannot just place a black and white ban on unclear written rules. Or where the rules oversights. Since the regulation did not say you cannot remap the throttle and torque delivery relationship under 100%. Which mean it is ok.

This is more of the FIA saying "oh cock, how did we forget that". Then ok, here's the amendment. That's what technical working group is for.

These things happens every single year to nearly all the top teams. Mass Damper, DDD, F-Duct, Mercedes DRS-F-Duct, Exhaust blown diffusor, etc etc.

With the given rule and varies interpretation, teams constantly ask the Stewards for clarification. Of course not giving away all the intellectual pieces.
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      07-26-2012, 11:21 AM   #346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90SLAM View Post
Too far? I don't think so.
You cannot just place a black and white ban on unclear written rules. Or where the rules oversights. Since the regulation did not say you cannot remap the throttle and torque delivery relationship under 100%. Which mean it is ok.

This is more of the FIA saying "oh cock, how did we forget that". Then ok, here's the amendment. That's what technical working group is for.

These things happens every single year to nearly all the top teams. Mass Damper, DDD, F-Duct, Mercedes DRS-F-Duct, Exhaust blown diffusor, etc etc.

With the given rule and varies interpretation, teams constantly ask the Stewards for clarification. Of course not giving away all the intellectual pieces.
It much more complicated than that. They where still using the maps for blowing the diffuser besides the traction control. The FIA is there to keep things fair, its not that they forgot an aspect of the rule. The issue is that Red Bull is distorting the meaning to get an unfair advantage.
There is no use in discussing the matter anymore since it has already been deemed that they where doing something illegal. Of course there will always be Red Bull fans that will be blind...
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      07-26-2012, 11:46 AM   #347
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As far as I know, the RB8 was never illegal.Otherwise they will not be allowed to race in Germany and points should be stripped away.

It is a rule that did not cover all the basis. Thus teams (RBR being the first one) are to exploit the loopholes in order to maximize the performance. Team have been doing this since like forever.

Besides motorsport and technology, F1 is also a legal playing field. Technical directors also plays the role of interpreting the rules to their favor. Like how lawyers and tax accountant interpreting the laws to their favor.

Quote:
No action was taken at Hockenheim because the stewards said that while they "do not accept all the arguments of the team, they however conclude that as the regulation is written, the map presented does not breach the text of Art. 5.5.3 of the Formula One Technical Regulations".
Now the rules have been clarified and further restrictions applied. RBR will just have to change to their previous engine map setting or a map setting satisfying the technical directive issued by the FIA.

Quote:
It has now been confirmed to ESPNF1 that the teams have been issued with a clarification surrounding the engine maps, and although the contents of the clarification have not been made public, the BBC reports that a reference map from the opening four races must be supplied to the FIA and that the directive states: "Above 6,000rpm, the maximum engine torque may vary by no more than +/- 2% (from the reference map). And the ignition angle may vary by no more than 2.5%."
If you know the rule book inside and out, I'm sure you will definitely find a few loopholes teams has been exploiting here and there. Regardless of direct or indirect performance gain.
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      07-26-2012, 11:52 AM   #348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrClean335i View Post
It much more complicated than that. They where still using the maps for blowing the diffuser besides the traction control. The FIA is there to keep things fair, its not that they forgot an aspect of the rule. The issue is that Red Bull is distorting the meaning to get an unfair advantage.
There is no use in discussing the matter anymore since it has already been deemed that they where doing something illegal. Of course there will always be Red Bull fans that will be blind...
I don't know that I'd say it's distortion as much as it is interpretation. They were exploiting a loophole that has now been closed, simple as that. Happens ALL of the time. It's not like Red Bull are the big bad guys, other teams look for loopholes to exploit as well!

In my mind, cheating would be explicitly doing something completely against the rules and attempting to hide it. Which does happen from time to time unfortunately. You mentioned that this was clearly deemed cheating, but that's not actually the case according to the stewards. The FIA had to CHANGE the rule to forbid what Red Bull were doing--which means they weren't doing something completely against the rules as they stood previously.

I know it's semantics, but again...exploiting loopholes will always be cheating to some people and not to others.

I don't take a side either way. I just think it's an important discussion to have.

And FYI I'm not a Red Bull fan any more than I am a Ferrari, McLaren, Lotus or Mercedes fan. So I don't bring any prejudice into this conversation either way and I'm not one of those "blind" Red Bull fans of which you speak.

Last edited by Koop; 07-26-2012 at 12:01 PM.
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      07-26-2012, 11:56 AM   #349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koop View Post
I don't know that I'd say it's distortion as much as it is interpretation. They were exploiting a loophole that has now been closed, simple as that. Happens ALL of the time. It's not like Red Bull are the big bad guys, other teams look for loopholes to exploit as well!

In my mind, cheating would be explicitly doing something completely against the rules and attempting to hide it. Which does happen from time to time unfortunately. You mentioned that this was clearly deemed cheating, but that's not actually the case according to the stewards. The FIA had to CHANGE the rule to forbid what Red Bull were doing--which means they weren't doing something completely against the rules as they stood previously.

I know it's semantics, but again...exploiting loopholes will always be cheating to some people and not to others.

I don't take a side either way. I just think it's an important discussion to have.

And FYI I'm not a Red Bull fan any more than I am a Ferrari, McLaren, Lotus or Mercedes fan. So I don't bring any prejudice into this conversation either way.
To me, cheating will be something more like race fixing, stealing intellectual properties, etc.

However, what RBR had done was just being one step smarter and ahead of rival of exploiting a loophole where everyone could have done it too!

For me, McLaren fan.
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      07-26-2012, 12:37 PM   #350
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Marussia F1 Team test driver Maria Di Villota has been released from the hospital. Let's hope she has a good road to recovery.

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/2...-paz-hospital/
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      07-26-2012, 05:28 PM   #351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90SLAM View Post
To me, cheating will be something more like race fixing, stealing intellectual properties, etc.

However, what RBR had done was just being one step smarter and ahead of rival of exploiting a loophole where everyone could have done it too!

For me, McLaren fan.
And to me, what I know about F1 so far, that's the spirit of F1! Find the loophole, use it until you get "caught" and told not to do that any longer, then find the next one. But even with the mapping, it's not like they had SUCH an advantage that both RB8's were running 1-2 up to Germany, either. I think that has a lot of weight to it as well.
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      07-26-2012, 05:40 PM   #352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90SLAM View Post
To me, cheating will be something more like race fixing, stealing intellectual properties, etc.

However, what RBR had done was just being one step smarter and ahead of rival of exploiting a loophole where everyone could have done it too!

For me, McLaren fan.
Well, I suppose that would be cheating too.

Speaking of McLaren, I'd love to see LH start doing a little better. Guy's got an incredible amount of talent.

Glad to hear the news about Maria Di Villota. Best of luck to her and her family.
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