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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Cams?



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      06-14-2007, 09:50 PM   #1
Cadillac Johnson
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Cams?

So, has anyone heard anything about cams for the N54?

Cams and turbo cars are usually good for really nice gains, I havent heard anything mentioned from anyone regarding cams.

*edit*

I also wanted to find out about intercooler piping and the intercooler itself, I wont start a new thread about it, but if anyone has any info, besides the Spearco core, please share.
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      06-14-2007, 10:25 PM   #2
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I'm affraid the engine is too new (and too expensive to play with, too) for the pro tuner community to have cams. I think first someone has to reach the max potential of the stock N54, where to proceed further it will be no other way like opening the engine and start to play with its guts. It will be right after the DPs and ICs will be broadly available together with upgraded turbo kits, which full performance will be limited by cams. otherwise it wouldn't make sense...
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      06-15-2007, 12:47 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadillac Johnson View Post
So, has anyone heard anything about cams for the N54?

Cams and turbo cars are usually good for really nice gains, I havent heard anything mentioned from anyone regarding cams.

*edit*

I also wanted to find out about intercooler piping and the intercooler itself, I wont start a new thread about it, but if anyone has any info, besides the Spearco core, please share.
BMW's have either Valvetronic (N52)- 325,328,330 or VANOS (N54)- 335i. No need for cams, as cam timing and lift is variably controlled by moving the cams position by a mechanical actuator electronically controlled as needed by the engines input management system. The system is self learning and applies the necessary timing adjustments as more HP is created. Ingenious really !!!
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      06-15-2007, 01:26 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Sparky66 View Post
BMW's have either Valvetronic (N52)- 325,328,330 or VANOS (N54)- 335i. No need for cams, as cam timing and lift is variably controlled by moving the cams position by a mechanical actuator electronically controlled as needed by the engines input management system. The system is self learning and applies the necessary timing adjustments as more HP is created. Ingenious really !!!
Hmmm I thought vanos didn't change lift or duration but just timing/cam angle in an infinitely variable way.

Valvetronic gives you the full boat of control.

Am I wrong?
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      06-15-2007, 01:39 AM   #5
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Hmmm I thought vanos didn't change lift or duration but just timing/cam angle in an infinitely variable way.

Valvetronic gives you the full boat of control.

Am I wrong?
No you're right.. VANOS only controls cam timing.. not lift.

Valvetronic controls valve lift

Last edited by jon@themshop; 06-15-2007 at 03:05 AM.
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      06-15-2007, 02:41 AM   #6
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Valvetronic will not be coupled to BMW's N53, "High Precision Injection" (gasoline direct injection) technology due to lack of room in the cylinder head, or the N54B30 bi-turbo engine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VANOS
http://www.bmwworld.com/technology/vanos.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valvetronic
http://www.bmwworld.com/technology/valvetronic.htm

anyway, very usefull infos here:
http://www.bmwworld.com/technology/index.htm
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      06-15-2007, 03:04 AM   #7
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Vanos controls cam timing, as far as WHEN valves open during the rotation of the engine. Vanos can adjust the cam to open sooner or later as needed. I don't believe that Vanos will adjust cam duration, only timing.

Valvetronic controls valve lift of only the intake valves, acting as the throttle valve, and minmizing pumping losses, since air under less vacuum is more readily available right at the valve instead of at the throttle valve.

Neither of these two things control cam duration.

The wave of the future is solenoid actuated valves, no cam at all. There will be solenoids on every valve, and they will open when, as much, and for as long as is necessary to acheive max performance and efficiency for the current throttle demand.
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      06-15-2007, 05:58 AM   #8
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And just to add, the N52 has VANOS and Valvetronic.

But yes, neither will alter cam duration.
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      06-15-2007, 06:14 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadillac Johnson View Post
So, has anyone heard anything about cams for the N54?

Cams and turbo cars are usually good for really nice gains, I havent heard anything mentioned from anyone regarding cams.
It really depends on the car. For Evos, cams are a good power upgrade and something that people do quite often. On the other hand, there are not very many people (relatively speaking) doing cams on STIs, which have AVCS. The tuning in this community is too new to be able to determine how much impact different cams will be. My gut instinct is to say that with technology like VANOS and Valvetronic and (hopefully) the ability to control these through the ECU, cam upgrades will not be worth it.
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      06-15-2007, 11:03 AM   #10
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The N54 engine does not use Valvetronic technology.
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      06-16-2007, 02:54 PM   #11
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Alright, so does the N54 have Valvetronic and Vanos or not? Can someone give the correct answer with some proof to back it up? It seems there's some confusion about it.

Also, even with those things, a cam change still has benefits. Honda has Vtec, Mitsu has Mivec, Toyota has VVLTi (i believe, if not it's something like that)

All the motors with that technology will see gains with a cam change. I'm not sure if the M5's V10 has Valvetronic and Vanos, but they do have cams available for it.

Either way, I'd still be interested in seeing some cams developed and what, if any, gains would be realized. I'm sure there would be some, more than likely at the top end of the curve, but I'm still interested.
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      06-16-2007, 03:03 PM   #12
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Alright, so does the N54 have Valvetronic and Vanos or not? Can someone give the correct answer with some proof to back it up? It seems there's some confusion about it. The N54 only has Double VANOS. NO Valvetronic. As stated it doesn't have valvetronic because there isn't enough room due to the direct injection system.


All the motors with that technology will see gains with a cam change. I'm not sure if the M5's V10 has Valvetronic and Vanos, but they do have cams available for it. The S85 only has double Vanos. No Valvetronic.
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      06-16-2007, 03:12 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jon@themshop View Post
Alright, so does the N54 have Valvetronic and Vanos or not? Can someone give the correct answer with some proof to back it up? It seems there's some confusion about it. The N54 only has Double VANOS. NO Valvetronic. As stated it doesn't have valvetronic because there isn't enough room due to the direct injection system.


All the motors with that technology will see gains with a cam change. I'm not sure if the M5's V10 has Valvetronic and Vanos, but they do have cams available for it. The S85 only has double Vanos. No Valvetronic.
Cool thanks.

So if Vanos just controls timing, there would certainly be gains with a high lift high duration cam.

No need for cam gears obviously, but a "big" cam sounds like a good upgrade.

*edit*
Do you happen to know what the lift, duration, and effective duration, of the stock cams are?

Last edited by Cadillac Johnson; 06-16-2007 at 04:14 PM.
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      06-16-2007, 04:21 PM   #14
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The N54 doesn't have valvetronic because it doesn't need it (it may or may not handle boost pressure on the intake valves well either), its not related to direct injection.
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      06-16-2007, 04:31 PM   #15
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The N54 doesn't have valvetronic because it doesn't need it (it may or may not handle boost pressure on the intake valves well either), its not related to direct injection.
Yes you're right. My mistake. Valvetronic is designed to reduce pumping losses. It's suppose to improve volumetric efficiency by optimizing the air charge. Something that forced induction engines don't need. since VE is over 100%.
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      06-16-2007, 05:29 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadillac Johnson View Post
Alright, so does the N54 have Valvetronic and Vanos or not? Can someone give the correct answer with some proof to back it up? It seems there's some confusion about it.
sorry, but this is absolute ignorancy. I pasted 4 links to 2 sources about valvetronic and vanos, now U, Cadilac, ask the same stupid questions again.
RTFM!!! Dont be so f*cking lame and ignorant! Geez! Read the god damn docs I linked to U and U'll know everything U could. And on the next step UTFG (Use The F*cking GOOGLE) to find out more.... shame...

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichP View Post
The N54 doesn't have valvetronic because it doesn't need it (it may or may not handle boost pressure on the intake valves well either), its not related to direct injection.
not really, or not only. because of its design and function it isn't suitable for high reving engines, this is the reason the M5 has d.vanos, too.
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      06-16-2007, 05:45 PM   #17
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sorry, but this is absolute ignorancy. I pasted 4 links to 2 sources about valvetronic and vanos, now U, Cadilac, ask the same stupid questions again.
RTFM!!! Dont be so f*cking lame and ignorant! Geez! Read the god damn docs I linked to U and U'll know everything U could. And on the next step UTFG (Use The F*cking GOOGLE) to find out more.... shame...
How bout you chill the fuck out?

Even after you posted, there still was confusion from numerous people. I wanted to clear it up for everyone. Which it was before you posted this. Wikipedia is hardly the gospel, and your BMW links only say what Vanos and Valvetronic are, and not which motors have it.

No need to be an asshole, dick.

Perhaps you could use your amazing Google skillz to answer post #13?
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      06-16-2007, 06:06 PM   #18
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Who needs google for this, dick? Maybe U, so use it first and be so generous to public to post answers instead of questions.

Unlike VTEC, which controls both lift and duration (not fluently, has 2 modes, short for low rpm and long for higher rpm above 5300), DVan controls only timing (and Valvetronic lift and timing, if combined with vanos). Let's focus on VTEC VS DV. VTEC (and ValveTronic) were intended for use with N/A engines primarily, where adjusting lift and duration are important and effective. But In high reving FI engines if U need to put more air in the cylinder, increase pressure + after certain point change cams, but to sharp ones (with much stronger strings certainly, forged valves), so lift it more to let the air in, then close it asap and press it. This usually goes hand2hand with some decent head porting to open and optimise air flow, but some ppl say it's not THAT important in FI setups. But everything relates...

Allowing the valves be opened longer would maybe bring benefits on higher rpms, but would definitely cause loss of low end performance, what is unacceptable.
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      06-16-2007, 06:32 PM   #19
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Did you read post #13?

The question I asked was; "Do you happen to know what the lift, duration, and effective duration, of the stock cams are?"

I'm not sure why you posted all that.

Anyway, I would say that head work shows more gains on FI motors than NA versions. There's much more air flowing through the intake valves with FI. The shape of the ports are much more important on an NA motor, usually with FI the bigger the better.

Cams would allow more lift and more duration which as I'm sure you know would allow more air and fuel which would make more power. The stock valves are fine unless your going to oversize them by 1mm. Springs and retainers would certainly be a good idea however.

In the case of the N54, Double Vanos would only help to optimize a larger set of cams. They seem like a great upgrade to me. There's a shop I know of that can design custom cams. They are ground by Kelford, so you know they're quality, I would just need all the detailed cam specs that manufacturers dont like to release. Which brings me back to post #13.. I would still need ramp rates, profiles etc. but lift, duration, effective duration is a good start.
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      06-16-2007, 07:11 PM   #20
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If anyone's interested I contacted Kelleners and Turner Motorsports to ask about cam development.

I will post the responses when I receive them.

Kelleners cams on the M5's V10 had a peak increase of 72hp..
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      06-16-2007, 07:20 PM   #21
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If anyone's interested I contacted Kelleners and Turner Motorsports to ask about cam development.

I will post the responses when I receive them.

Kelleners cams on the M5's V10 had a peak increase of 72hp..

WTF cams giving 72 bhp? thats nuts. almost impossible in my mind...
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      06-16-2007, 07:36 PM   #22
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WTF cams giving 72 bhp? thats nuts. almost impossible in my mind...
Here's the thread http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=84797

That's the beauty of big cams with variable cam timing. By advancing the timing you are still able to gain power down low, while retarding the timing at higher rpm's to help make peak power.

Generally big cams will make more power up top, at the expense of power down low. Double Vanos helps to allieviate that.
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