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      04-10-2012, 06:05 PM   #23
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Thanks for the comparo Peter.

I have to admit I'm very impressed with the Cobb making so much power on an otherwise stock car. 248kw at the wheels is really impressive.

My pick would be the Cobb. Horsepower wins races and it has a bit extra in the top end where our cars need it the most.

It would be nice if you can throw a JB4 in the mix for testing. Although I'm not sure if you can run Map 2 safely?
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      04-10-2012, 06:21 PM   #24
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Firstly let me say I have no basis for understanding the AFR in the first set of graphs but am I right in reading that the proceed runs much leaner than the cobb
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      04-10-2012, 06:21 PM   #25
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+1 I prefer the COBB's graph with better top end.

Down low still have plenty of power anyway in my experience.
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      04-10-2012, 07:24 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW86 View Post
Thanks for the comparo Peter.

I have to admit I'm very impressed with the Cobb making so much power on an otherwise stock car. 248kw at the wheels is really impressive.

My pick would be the Cobb. Horsepower wins races and it has a bit extra in the top end where our cars need it the most.

It would be nice if you can throw a JB4 in the mix for testing. Although I'm not sure if you can run Map 2 safely?
Agree. The COBB is impressive. I also like the power up top.
So long as the Juice Box gets a run on a nice cool day like yesterday cause it was a bloody cold day in Sydney.
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      04-10-2012, 07:47 PM   #27
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Agree. The COBB is impressive. I also like the power up top.
So long as the Juice Box gets a run on a nice cool day like yesterday cause it was a bloody cold day in Sydney.
I think the most accurate way to do it is test all 3 on the same car, on the same day, one after another. Maybe with 20-30 minute breaks between each tune. I have a feeling Cobb will make the most power though, it's very impressive. Bring back the JB3!!
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      04-10-2012, 08:31 PM   #28
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Nice test Peter,

As expected, it mainly comes down to the level of boost run. The stock maps for the Procede run less boost up top and more boost down low as compared to the Cobb. Therefore the Procede has less power up top, and more power down low.

With the Procede we are a little more conservative. We are happy to run the higher boost down low as the turbos are within there flow range. Up top the turbos are starting to run out of flow, so we run lower boost to reduce EGT and EGBP (back pressure) which kills power. The JB tunes are more similar to Procede in this regard. You can also see this in the results. The 1.5psi extra boost the Cobb uses gains 8.5kw. That is around 5.5kW per psi. The Procede uses 11psi boost up top. Up from a stock boost level of 7psi which makes 190kW ATW. So 4psi extra boost gains 50kW which is 12.5kW per psi. So as you can see, the 11psi level is efficient with boost gaining alot of power per psi extra boost. But the Cobb adding an extra 1.5psi gains less than half the power benefit per psi as the turbos are running out of puff. So there is a point of diminishing returns here, and the stock Procede map just treads it more conservatively.

It should be noted that if you connect a laptop to the Procede, you can adjust the boost curve to whatever you want it to be in about 30 seconds. For instance, you could specify the exact same boost map as the Cobb runs and I am pretty sure you will then make the same power curve. This is not a difficult task and takes very little time. Of course you nolonger have the out of the box tune... but it is close to it with just a minor boost change. I am not sure if the Cobb can be altered to match the Procede boost map. So if you want to push the Procede to the less conservative approach the Cobb uses, you can do so easily and get a similar result to the Cobb. Of course you can also step it up further to higher boost levels and higher power levels with the same level of ease.
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      04-10-2012, 08:35 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pavo335 View Post
Firstly let me say I have no basis for understanding the AFR in the first set of graphs but am I right in reading that the proceed runs much leaner than the cobb
The Procede is slightly richer at high RPM (near peak power), slightly leaner in the mid range, and a fair bit richer in the bottom end.

The Procede is definately NOT much leaner as you report.
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      04-10-2012, 08:43 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu View Post
Nice test Peter,

As expected, it mainly comes down to the level of boost run. The stock maps for the Procede run less boost up top and more boost down low as compared to the Cobb. Therefore the Procede has less power up top, and more power down low.

With the Procede we are a little more conservative. We are happy to run the higher boost down low as the turbos are within there flow range. Up top the turbos are starting to run out of flow, so we run lower boost to reduce EGT and EGBP (back pressure) which kills power. The JB tunes are more similar to Procede in this regard. You can also see this in the results. The 1.5psi extra boost the Cobb uses gains 8.5kw. That is around 5.5kW per psi. The Procede uses 11psi boost up top. Up from a stock boost level of 7psi which makes 190kW ATW. So 4psi extra boost gains 50kW which is 12.5kW per psi. So as you can see, the 11psi level is efficient with boost gaining alot of power per psi extra boost. But the Cobb adding an extra 1.5psi gains less than half the power benefit per psi as the turbos are running out of puff. So there is a point of diminishing returns here, and the stock Procede map just treads it more conservatively.

It should be noted that if you connect a laptop to the Procede, you can adjust the boost curve to whatever you want it to be in about 30 seconds. For instance, you could specify the exact same boost map as the Cobb runs and I am pretty sure you will then make the same power curve. This is not a difficult task and takes very little time. Of course you nolonger have the out of the box tune... but it is close to it with just a minor boost change. I am not sure if the Cobb can be altered to match the Procede boost map. So if you want to push the Procede to the less conservative approach the Cobb uses, you can do so easily and get a similar result to the Cobb. Of course you can also step it up further to higher boost levels and higher power levels with the same level of ease.
Thanks for your input Adrain you are 100% correct
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      04-10-2012, 10:14 PM   #31
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I'd prefer the bottom end power than up top personally as your already away and moving, that's useable power.

However, hardly splitting hairs its like 8 kw up top and 15kw in the mid range. Obviously Peter or anyone can tune around this with both units.

Good comparision! How does it drive day to day more importantly?
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      04-10-2012, 10:23 PM   #32
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Quote:
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I'd prefer the bottom end power than up top personally as your already away and moving, that's useable power.

However, hardly splitting hairs its like 8 kw up top and 15kw in the mid range. Obviously Peter or anyone can tune around this with both units.

Good comparision! How does it drive day to day more importantly?
+1 we already have a heap of torque down low but get a little breathless up top
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      04-10-2012, 10:25 PM   #33
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Soon
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      04-10-2012, 10:34 PM   #34
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Either tune could be adjusted to driver preference for top end power or bottom end torque. With the Procede you just use the same software you use for loading of maps. With the Cobb, you need to get a tuner to use the PRO version at the moment, but they will eventually release ATP to general users to do the same thing.

So realise that comparing the tunes on the basis of the dynos is not really about comparing the tune capabilities... it is more about comparing individual preferences, and the ways you can go about achieving a car that drives to your preference. I could make a map in about 1 minute with the Procede that would have more power than the Cobb everywhere... or one that has less bottom end torque and more top end power than the Cobb.... but would that mean the Procede was better? No it would not. It would just mean that an individual may like it better because is makes more power at the expense of engine/turbo longetivity.

The key here is that there is mroe than one way to skin a cat when talking about tuning, and different people have different preferences, but each tune can be adapted to any preference.

The actual difference between tune capabilities comes at a more advanced level. The Cobb has some nice advanced logging capability and ease of installation and removal. The Procede has nice exteral hardware (meth, NLS, 2 step) integration and advanced dash controlled features.
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      04-10-2012, 10:49 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu View Post
Either tune could be adjusted to driver preference for top end power or bottom end torque. With the Procede you just use the same software you use for loading of maps. With the Cobb, you need to get a tuner to use the PRO version at the moment, but they will eventually release ATP to general users to do the same thing.

So realise that comparing the tunes on the basis of the dynos is not really about comparing the tune capabilities... it is more about comparing individual preferences, and the ways you can go about achieving a car that drives to your preference. I could make a map in about 1 minute with the Procede that would have more power than the Cobb everywhere... or one that has less bottom end torque and more top end power than the Cobb.... but would that mean the Procede was better? No it would not. It would just mean that an individual may like it better because is makes more power at the expense of engine/turbo longetivity.

The key here is that there is mroe than one way to skin a cat when talking about tuning, and different people have different preferences, but each tune can be adapted to any preference.

The actual difference between tune capabilities comes at a more advanced level. The Cobb has some nice advanced logging capability and ease of installation and removal. The Procede has nice exteral hardware (meth, NLS, 2 step) integration and advanced dash controlled features.
I love it when a vendor speaks 100% unbiased truth. Top work, Adrian.
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      04-10-2012, 11:03 PM   #36
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Adrian brings up some excellent unbiased points. Procede has a lot more features and it sounds like it has similar features to JB in that you can use a custom map and target higher boost using a set algorithm. I think I said that right.. Might not be as smooth as the out of box maps but the option is there. Usually need higher octane to support it. I always thought JB3 made more power than JB4 as it's tuned more conservatively, and I think for a good reason. At this stage, if you want meth seems like Procede/JB4 is the way to go. I'd like to know what the quickest Cobb does down the quarter, we all know what Procede/JB4 are capable of.
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      04-10-2012, 11:15 PM   #37
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I'd like to know what the quickest Cobb does down the quarter, we all know what Procede/JB4 are capable of.
Me too. In the meantime, this should satisfy us:

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=644020

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      04-10-2012, 11:22 PM   #38
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Quote:
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Adrian brings up some excellent unbiased points. Procede has a lot more features and it sounds like it has similar features to JB in that you can use a custom map and target higher boost using a set algorithm. I think I said that right.. Might not be as smooth as the out of box maps but the option is there. Usually need higher octane to support it. I always thought JB3 made more power than JB4 as it's tuned more conservatively, and I think for a good reason. At this stage, if you want meth seems like Procede/JB4 is the way to go. I'd like to know what the quickest Cobb does down the quarter, we all know what Procede/JB4 are capable of.
I have attached a screenshot of the Procede boost control settings for stage 0 map which is what Peter had in his car when dynoed (note that he had it in map 2... but not stage 2). To make changes you simply type in the boost you want at whatever RPM at the bottom and it displays the boost curve in the graph above. The settings are immediately loaded into the Procede on the fly as you make them... so any boost curve can be made in about 30 seconds or as long as it takes you to think of it.

Another point... Peter's car has the Procede stage 0 map. Stage 0 is for stock car. We also have stages 1,2,3 and aftermarket turbo maps (for both big twins and now big single). Peter used Cobb stage 2 maps. I suspect the result would have been different if the Procede had run stage 2 maps, as the main difference between maps is that higher stages run higher boost in the upper RPM range. But as I said earlier, running more boost up high puts more load stress on engines, and we recommend stage 0 for stock cars. Not sure what Cobb recommends.
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      04-10-2012, 11:55 PM   #39
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on stock cars you should be running stage 1 on COBB.

ps. I am glad we can have a civil discussion about tunes!
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      04-11-2012, 12:03 AM   #40
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on stock cars you should be running stage 1 on COBB.

ps. I am glad we can have a civil discussion about tunes!
I suspect if stage 1 was run on both tunes, the peak power result would have been similar, and probably low end torque would have been more with the Procede (since we run similar boost down low in stage 1 and 0 with just a little more boost up top in stage 1). In the interest of not being biased, note that I am sure that the Cobb could be PRO tuned to match the Procede Procede bottom end torque. I am just stating what I suspect the results would be if both tunes were run at stage 1 with untouched maps.
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      04-11-2012, 02:08 AM   #41
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Hi all
If anyone has any map combos they would like me to run, now is the time as the car will be off the dyno around mid morning.
What would you like ?

Last edited by Peter@Advan; 04-11-2012 at 04:03 AM.
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      04-11-2012, 02:31 AM   #42
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Hi Peter

You can see the boost curve in latest Procede maps here where someone has graphed them all:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=673763

Can you run stage 1 3-17 maps available here:

http://procedetuning.com/BMW/n54/dow...downloads.html

If you could run map 2, and set the start boost for map 2 to 30% in the User adjustable parameters. This is basically an aggressive stock car setup as opposed to the conservative run previously. Will run about 14psi up top. Around 16psi down low. 14 psi at high RPM on stock DPs will be borderline as to whether it makes any more power?? May go backwards. If it does, lower start boost to 20%.

Cheers,

Adrian


Cheers,

Adrian
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      04-11-2012, 03:10 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu View Post
Hi Peter

You can see the boost curve in latest Procede maps here where someone has graphed them all:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=673763

Can you run stage 1 3-17 maps available here:

http://procedetuning.com/BMW/n54/dow...downloads.html

If you could run map 2, and set the start boost for map 2 to 30% in the User adjustable parameters. This is basically an aggressive stock car setup as opposed to the conservative run previously. Will run about 14psi up top. Around 16psi down low. 14 psi at high RPM on stock DPs will be borderline as to whether it makes any more power?? May go backwards. If it does, lower start boost to 20%.

Cheers,

Adrian


Cheers,

Adrian
Yes can do will do it first thing in the morning
regards Peter
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      04-11-2012, 03:59 AM   #44
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Thanks for the explanation Adrian. Everything you've said makes sense. The Procede is definitely the more complete tune and as you pointed out, there is always the option to up the boost to make comparable power.

Peter, can you get your hands on a JB4? I'm sure the BMS guys would love to see what it can do on Map 1 and Map 2, same dyno and same car.
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