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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > Wheels and Tires Forum Sponsored by The Tire Rack > Ditching RFTs - Tire Dealer caught lying??!



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      04-10-2012, 10:24 PM   #1
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**update**
I got new Michelin pilot sports a/s plus. They do feel squishier but thats because I'm used to driving with the RFTs. Based of the research of another thread somewhere I collected part numbers and ordered the e60 spare wheel, the Riefenstahl continental tire, the valve stem, and for looks the spare tire cover. Got all the parts from tischer. Should get here next week..thanks to everyone for their responses!

So I'm in the market to get new rear tires and want to get rid of the RFTs. I did some forum / tirerack research and decided to go with the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S. I went to a local tire co. for a quote and that's where it all started. We got into a semi-healthy debate about why I SHOULD stick with the RFTs. Here are his arguments:

- BMW designed the suspension and ride with RFTs in mind so putting non-RFTs will WORSEN ride quality (This goes against almost every testimonial ever written about ditching RFTs!)

- Putting non-RFTs on my car will VOID the Michelin tire warranty because they are not being used in the right application. I quote, "It's like putting Chevy S10 wheels on a F-350" (What!?)

- The Michelin's thread life would worsen because the BMW ride / suspension design is not meant for non-RFTs so they produce extra wear (Really?!)

- Appeal to emotions by telling me that I will have peace of mind getting the OEM replacement (wow)

- Usual rhetoric about the safety of RFTs (Given that I haven't purchased the spare wheel kit, I give him that one)

I don't get why this guy was trying to push these Potenza Re050s so badly. Bigger sale commission perhaps? The Potenzas were on clearance (I wonder why?) and on their website they had a 2.5/5 review rating while the Michelin's had a 4.5/5. Maybe they just wanted a sucker who would take them off their hands?

I called Michelin and they told me that no warranties would be voided if I use these on my car but they do recommend the RFTs since I don't have a spare,safety, manufacturer's recommendation, etc. etc....

I had no idea I would get such resistance when making the switch.

Any one have any thoughts or supporting evidence to backup his claims? Has any one experienced something similar when buying non-RFTs?

Also, is that TPMS "rebuild" necessary?

Thanks!
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      04-11-2012, 01:11 AM   #2
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First, find another tire dealer. Search for recommended installers in your area through the tirerack website and order from tirerack.
On newer BMWs, like my 2011 E90, BMW has softened the suspension (different shocks maybe?) to take away some of the harshness of the RFT. In this case, putting non-RFT tires on could possibly soften the ride even more, which is already as soft as I would want even with the sport suspension on the M-sport package.
If you feel that the ride on your E92 is harsh, you will probably enjoy the ride of the non-RFT.
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      04-11-2012, 05:23 AM   #3
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Take your business elsewhere.... My opinion on getting non run flats when it came to having no spare, run flats can still have major damage and not work anyways. And if I know I'm cut down I am getting it towed anyways. BMW pays for it if in warranty and my car insurance covers road side assistance/ towing for a whopping $2.50 for 6 months. Used it for when my water pump went out. Run flats only help with minor tire problems... Roadside assistance covers any need and towing for it. I enjoy my nice tires and just tow if needed... My 2 cents..... But ya, go to a more helpful tire dealer.
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      04-11-2012, 06:32 AM   #4
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I had a similar thing happen to me. It wasn't about using runflats. Rather I wanted to put 19" on my car. Went to a place to get price on wheels and tires. Guy insisted that I get 18" and it wasn't because of ride or fit.
It was because tire companies are going to stop making odd size diameters!! And it will cost 4 to 5 thousand down the road to get new tires.
He wouldnt even give me a price for 19"
Needless to say I quickly went elsewhere and I wont go there ever.
I'm in sales and I would never pull crap like that.

So as the others say, go somewhere else. Kmart probably would be better than that place.
However for $hits and giggles go back and tell him you want to put runflats on your non runflat car for safety for wifey and see if the opposite is true as runflats are not made for her car either according to his theory.
Bet you he will put them on it ok.
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      04-11-2012, 06:40 AM   #5
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Haha e90. That's a going point. Should do that..... Oo ya, you can grab a BMW spare tire kit that has a donut for other cars that will fit if you really want it
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      04-11-2012, 07:46 AM   #6
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- "BMW designed the suspension and ride with RFTs in mind so putting non-RFTs will WORSEN ride quality (This goes against almost every testimonial ever written about ditching RFTs!)"

You're right. The Sport A/S Plus will have a softer ride than the RE050A Runflat tires hands down. I have also yet to see any actual evidence that "BMW designed the suspension" around run flat tires, yet I continue to see dealerships try to make this argument.

- Putting non-RFTs on my car will VOID the Michelin tire warranty because they are not being used in the right application. I quote, "It's like putting Chevy S10 wheels on a F-350" (What!?)

Not only is this false, it has to be one of the worst analogies I've ever heard. One can't even bolt S10 wheels onto an F350 as the do not share the same bolt pattern. Many install non run flat tires on your car and the vast majority are thrilled with the results.

- The Michelin's thread life would worsen because the BMW ride / suspension design is not meant for non-RFTs so they produce extra wear (Really?!)

Again, back to the notion that BMW supposedly designed the suspension around run flat tires and that "Something" (insert a random bad thing here) will happen if you don't use them.
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      04-11-2012, 08:22 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spanner1751 View Post
First, find another tire dealer. Search for recommended installers in your area through the tirerack website and order from tirerack.
On newer BMWs, like my 2011 E90, BMW has softened the suspension (different shocks maybe?) to take away some of the harshness of the RFT. In this case, putting non-RFT tires on could possibly soften the ride even more, which is already as soft as I would want even with the sport suspension on the M-sport package.
If you feel that the ride on your E92 is harsh, you will probably enjoy the ride of the non-RFT.
+1
Go to tirerack, order the tires YOU want and have them delivered to one of their preferred installers.
Make sure you put Gary in the notes section at the end of your order so they will continue to support us!

I've used non-RFT tires for over 30K miles with NO issues at all. My Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetrics lasted 27K miles including 9 track days!
The difference is night and day when it comes to noise, ride, tramlining and handling.
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      04-11-2012, 08:56 AM   #8
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I have my TPMS rebuilt or at least looked at whenever I swap wheels for peace of mind
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      04-11-2012, 09:13 AM   #9
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Objectively speaking, BMW's with OE spec runflat tires were developed and tuned to use runflat tires with specific criteria for dry, wet, handling, noise, comfort, etc...non-runflat tires were not tested on the vehicles - it's BMW's strategy to use runflats.

Now this doesn't mean that non-runflats will be worse on the cars designed for runflats. Many people thru experience have benefited in using non-runflats for increased comfort and improvements in other performance criteria. These tires were simply not tested and approved by BMW (BMW can't test every tire spec out there). However, users do need to be aware of BMW's intentions behind runflats - to prevent drivers to do any roadside actions when a tire puncture occurs (majority of issues on road).

The only thing to keep in mind is for people to switch out their runflats, to know the potential consequences behind running non-runflats. There are no emergency aid kits in the vehicles. If they don't carry an alternative emergency option, the only thing they can do is wait for the tow truck.
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      04-11-2012, 10:02 AM   #10
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Wow...I'm in shock; you found a salesperson at a tire store that doesn't know what he's talking about? lol That's almost to be expected these days...how do you think I felt the other day when working with Merchants Tire to warranty a bad tire I have. I literally had to sit there for 15 minutes and explain to the guy helping me what Road Force was and how his Hunter GSP9700 works and operates in general because "In all his years of being a 'tire specialist' he's never heard of 'road force.'"

I lost count of the number of times we went back and forth:
Me: The tire is bad; it has over 22lbs of Road Force even after Force Matching the rim and tire multiple times.

Him: You mean 22 ounces of weight? What's a 'match force'?

Me:

It get's better. I go to leave and he hands me his business card; what does it say right at the top next to his name? .... Manager
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      04-11-2012, 10:09 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary@TireRack View Post
- "BMW designed the suspension and ride with RFTs in mind so putting non-RFTs will WORSEN ride quality (This goes against almost every testimonial ever written about ditching RFTs!)"

You're right. The Sport A/S Plus will have a softer ride than the RE050A Runflat tires hands down. I have also yet to see any actual evidence that "BMW designed the suspension" around run flat tires, yet I continue to see dealerships try to make this argument.
Look at a set of e90 rear subframe bushings and you will see that they are extremely soft, like 4-5 times softer than the M3 bushings or even the regular e46 bushings. The e90 suspension does have some RFT design cues. However I have never felt my car handling worse than with RFTs since I switched.
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      04-11-2012, 04:39 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90-328i View Post
I had a similar thing happen to me. It wasn't about using runflats. Rather I wanted to put 19" on my car. Went to a place to get price on wheels and tires. Guy insisted that I get 18" and it wasn't because of ride or fit.
It was because tire companies are going to stop making odd size diameters!! And it will cost 4 to 5 thousand down the road to get new tires.
He wouldnt even give me a price for 19"
Needless to say I quickly went elsewhere and I wont go there ever.
I'm in sales and I would never pull crap like that.

So as the others say, go somewhere else. Kmart probably would be better than that place.
However for $hits and giggles go back and tell him you want to put runflats on your non runflat car for safety for wifey and see if the opposite is true as runflats are not made for her car either according to his theory.
Bet you he will put them on it ok.
That's hilarious e90! I should go in there with my girlfriend's car.
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      04-11-2012, 04:54 PM   #13
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Thanks for all the replies guys!

It's completely retarded.

The funny thing was that he also told me a 5 minute story about how a guy with a Corvette came in there with "forum knowledge" and a head full of research and got the non-RFTs. Supposedly a week later he came back and bought all RFTs because his car felt "squishy" and "wobbling as he was losing control". I guess afterwards the customer kissed his rear end by saying "I'm sorry I ever doubted your expertise, you guys do this all the time, I should have listened to you..". I was like, what kind of tires did he put on? The sales guys said, "Continentals".

Probably should open another thread but since some one mentioned it...
I'm looking into getting the spare kit. I found ...

http://www.ddmtuning.com/Products/36...WITH-TYR369024

Which seems to be the correct OEM BMW part number but I'm not sure if that's just the black rim with the tire or the whole kit. I got that number from

http://www.trademotion.com/partlocat...catalogid=4462

DDM also carries

http://www.ddmtuning.com/Products/bm...rt-36101508367

but it has no description...

I emailed them with these questions and they haven't responded. Anyone vouch for DDM?
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      04-11-2012, 05:35 PM   #14
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There is some truth to the TPMS rebuild. Especially when swapping to multiple sets. These are quite a bit less than new sensors.

I agree with Anerbe - BMW did all their testing and design based on RFT's. If it will be detrimental to run non-RFT's is the question that time will tell. I would think not - there can be so many different brand of RFT so the compounds might vary and its unlikely that BMW tested every single one.
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      04-11-2012, 05:53 PM   #15
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" its unlikely that BMW tested every single one."

Well that could be said for anything non OE. Why do people get aftermarket, anything really? Let's say...coil-overs on original RFTs; Would the RFTs suffer because one ditched the Sachs?

I'm a software tester and we pull that card ALL the time when our customers try to experiment with our product in different environments. When things go wrong, our support department says, "we don't support that". Given that however, sometime customers come up with good ideas that we in turn make standard on our products. Just because they designed it that way it doesn't mean it's THE absolute best solution. It seems to me that the decision to go RFT is not based on performance at all but more on convenience. No pun intended, but this "bottom up" design with the RFTs seems like a bad idea to me.
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      04-11-2012, 06:24 PM   #16
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go regular tires, there is no reason to stay RFT, they literally suck.
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      04-11-2012, 06:46 PM   #17
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I have been running RE-11's on stock 189's for a couple of years on and off the track and trust me, they BLOW AWAY the RFT's and there is no looking back. Better ride, better handling, better noise... not one bad thing to say except FU RFT's.

How is that for a review?

Zeph
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      04-11-2012, 06:59 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeph
I have been running RE-11's on stock 189's for a couple of years on and off the track and trust me, they BLOW AWAY the RFT's and there is no looking back. Better ride, better handling, better noise... not one bad thing to say except FU RFT's.

How is that for a review?

Zeph
Thanks Zeth! I'll be joining the non-RFT ranks soon.
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      04-11-2012, 10:26 PM   #19
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I'm running Michelin Pilot SS on 189's....after running on run-flat tires for almost 6 years (probably more experience than most people have with this car) I can tell you without question the ride is softer, and imperfections in the road are way less jarring compared to the Bridgestones...things just feel less "harsh" overall

Car seems to be slightly quicker responding to throttle input and in acceleration, maybe because the tires are slightly lighter...
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      04-12-2012, 06:57 AM   #20
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TiAg

Harsh is the word for the feeling I get when I drive even on relatively good road. Any bump and it feels like something in my car is going to snap or break. The worse is the rear deck, I car hear it click and clack all the time. I just turn the radio up. Getting new tires today, I'm sure it'll be better. Thanks for you input.
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      04-13-2012, 02:19 PM   #21
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Get the Pilot Sport A/S+ you won't regret it. Aside from better ride, just as good handling, they also last at least twice as long as the OEM Bridgestones and cost less. If you are worried about flats, get a spare kit or one of the compressor/slime setups.

You will need to up the tire pressures, the OEM pressures are designed to offset the horrible slam of the runflats. I run 38 all around and the handling and ride are great.

Plus, the car no longer hops like a demented bunny on meth going around bumpy turns, which all by itself is worth the change IMHO. Flying sideways with no rubber on the road is NOT my idea of safe handling. And that's exactly what the OEM tires do.
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      04-13-2012, 04:08 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chromisdesigns View Post
Get the Pilot Sport A/S+ you won't regret it. Aside from better ride, just as good handling, they also last at least twice as long as the OEM Bridgestones and cost less. If you are worried about flats, get a spare kit or one of the compressor/slime setups.

You will need to up the tire pressures, the OEM pressures are designed to offset the horrible slam of the runflats. I run 38 all around and the handling and ride are great.

Plus, the car no longer hops like a demented bunny on meth going around bumpy turns, which all by itself is worth the change IMHO. Flying sideways with no rubber on the road is NOT my idea of safe handling. And that's exactly what the OEM tires do.
I have the same tires but kept the recommended tire pressure. Anyone else play around with different pressures after ditching RFTs? I don't know what kind of feel/handling differences to look for.
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