E90Post
 


TNT Racewerks
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Wastegates stuck open for first 15min of driving (update: solved)



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      08-01-2016, 12:11 AM   #1
Antetokounmpo
Colonel
Antetokounmpo's Avatar
United_States
611
Rep
2,687
Posts

Drives: E90 6MT
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: WI

iTrader: (3)

Wastegates stuck open for first 15min of driving (update: solved)

Update on page 2, problem solved (hopefully fixed)


Let me preface by saying I've never had any wastegate issues, no rattling, no boost issues or anything like that. When I used to run an aggressive tune, they could hit 20psi without a problem.

All of a sudden while I was driving my car got louder, I could tell the wastegates were stuck open by the sound and the no boost. No codes, but if I floored it for 4 sec I obviously got 30FF. I troubleshot it for a few min and even flashed a different file just in case something strange was going on with the tune. Didn't help. I had to go somewhere so I left and about 15 min of driving it got quiet again and voila, I was hitting target boost just like normal.

Now, every time I drive it from a cold state, they'll be stuck open for about 15 min then they shut and operate like normal. After they shut, I hit target boost every time and everything in the log looks perfect.

They also rattle like crazy when they're stuck open but don't rattle at all (as usual) when they start operating normal.

I really cannot think what the problem could be. Mechanically, everything is fine, they can hit target without a problem. This also rules out a vacuum leak or something. The only other thing I can think of would be a bad wastegate solenoid. If you look at the log below (when they're stuck open and don't make boost) it still does make a little boost, but nowhere near target.

What do you guys think? Very strange problem IMO.

http://datazap.me/u/heel-toe/log-146...=0&data=4-6-21
__________________

Bilstein | Eibach | Hawk HPS | Stoptech 600
Apex Arc-8 | Bridgestone RE-71R 255 Square | LM-32 225 Sq.

Last edited by Antetokounmpo; 08-15-2016 at 10:21 PM.
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2016, 12:52 AM   #2
vtl
Colonel
vtl's Avatar
Australia
447
Rep
2,412
Posts

Drives: 2008 BMW 135i MT
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Melbourne, Australia

iTrader: (0)

My wastegate seized after a several laps on the track. Litle boost, exhaust loud as hell. Vacuum lines checked good with a gauge, 25inHg from the cannisters, holding 15inHg of vacuum after the solenoids.

Went underneath the car and the rear turbo wastegate was stuck. Managed to get it unstuck by hand but could definitely feel it 'catching' when i moved it back and forth.

After startup, it would be loud (wastegate stuck open) for the first 10 meters of driving but would pop themselves into the correct position. After driving it for a day its gone back to normal.

Went back under the car again and seems like its still slightly sticky if i put some lateral pressure on the arm. I think its the wastegate diaphagm that seized up, maybe some junk inside of the mechanism heated up and bounded up the piston.

Bought a new wastegate actuator off ebay here:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/191488361...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Looks like its possible to swap it out from underneath the car, cant reach the 2 mounting bolts on the bracket but can remove the diaphragm with the 3 bolts. Fingers crossed this will fix the issue otherwise its new turbos. If its the wastegate flapper on the turbo that binding up, that will require complete turbo removal at which point i'd probably just upgrade them.

My turbos have no wastegate rattle or smoke or anything.

If its the front turbo you're out of luck, the actuator is in between the turbo and engine block, will require turbo removal in that case.
__________________
Build Thread | MHD Stage 2+ | Agency Power DPs | PE Mod Exhaust | 550i Clutch | Wagner FMIC | M3 LSD | Turbosmart Kompact DVs | M3 Control arms | Bilstein B12 ProKit | Dinan Camber Plates | M3 Front Sway | UUC Trans mounts | Nolathane rear subframe bushings | Ferodo DS2500 pads | Yokohama AD08R | 18" BMW 313 Rims | Schroth Harness | M3 Steering Wheel | LEDs | CIC + Combox retrofit

Last edited by vtl; 08-01-2016 at 06:18 PM.
Appreciate 1
      08-01-2016, 08:19 AM   #3
Antetokounmpo
Colonel
Antetokounmpo's Avatar
United_States
611
Rep
2,687
Posts

Drives: E90 6MT
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: WI

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by vtl View Post
My wastegate seized after a several laps on the track. Litle boost, exhaust loud as hell. Vacuum lines checked good with a gauge, 25inHg from the cannisters holding 15inHg of vacuum after the solenoids.

Went underneath the car and the rear turbo wastegate was stuck. Managed to get it unstuck by hand but could definitely feel it 'catching' when i moved it back and forth.

After startup, it would be loud (wastegate stuck open) for the first 10 meters of driving but would pop themselves into the correct position. After driving it for a day its gone back to normal.

Went back under the car again and seems like its still slightly sticky if i put some lateral pressure on the arm. I think its the wastegate diaphagm that seized up, maybe some junk inside of the mechanism heated up and bounded up the piston.

Bought a new wastegate actuator off ebay here:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/191488361...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Looks like its possible to swap it out from underneath the car, cant reach the 2 mounting bolts on the bracket but can remove the diaphragm with the 3 bolts. Fingers crossed this will fix the issue otherwise its new turbos. If its the wastegate flapper on the turbo that binding up, that will require complete turbo removal at which point i'd probably just upgrade them.

My turbos have no wastegate rattle or smoke or anything.

If its the front turbo you're out of luck, the actuator is in between the turbo and engine block, will require turbo removal in that case.
That's what I initially thought, the wastegate(s) are getting stuck somehow, maybe binding or something. But, it's very consistent, about 15min of driving they start functioning normally. If they were stuck or binding, I would think it would not be so consistent for when they start working normally. Which is why I find it hard to believe it would be something mechanically wrong with the wastegates.

Secondly, I'm pretty sure both wastegates are stuck open not just one. It wouldn't make sense that both would just get stuck at the exact same time which again leads me to believe it's not a problem with the actual wastegate.
__________________

Bilstein | Eibach | Hawk HPS | Stoptech 600
Apex Arc-8 | Bridgestone RE-71R 255 Square | LM-32 225 Sq.
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2016, 01:22 PM   #4
Antetokounmpo
Colonel
Antetokounmpo's Avatar
United_States
611
Rep
2,687
Posts

Drives: E90 6MT
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: WI

iTrader: (3)

Did some vacuum testing during lunch.

With a mityvac, the canisters are reading about 15inHG at idle which sounds normal. When I unhook one of the vaccum canisters and hook up the mityvac to read the pressure, it builds to about 15inHG as well. Same goes with the other one.

With the car off, the solenoids loose about 1inHG/second when I pull vacuum on them using the mityvac. BUT, both of them do the same. I have a hard time believing both solenoids would be bad so I really don't know what to do from here.

Should the solenoids hold vacuum with the car off? I don't understand why the shouldn't. But I also don't understand why both of them wound be acting the exact same way.
__________________

Bilstein | Eibach | Hawk HPS | Stoptech 600
Apex Arc-8 | Bridgestone RE-71R 255 Square | LM-32 225 Sq.
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2016, 01:42 PM   #5
Antetokounmpo
Colonel
Antetokounmpo's Avatar
United_States
611
Rep
2,687
Posts

Drives: E90 6MT
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: WI

iTrader: (3)

This also tells me a vacuum leak is possible but since sometimes the wastegates start to function properly I don't think a vacuum leak is possible. It would never be able to hit target.
__________________

Bilstein | Eibach | Hawk HPS | Stoptech 600
Apex Arc-8 | Bridgestone RE-71R 255 Square | LM-32 225 Sq.
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2016, 02:13 PM   #6
Rat_House
Second Lieutenant
6
Rep
264
Posts

Drives: pre-lci e92 xi
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Stamford, CT

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heel Toe View Post
This also tells me a vacuum leak is possible but since sometimes the wastegates start to function properly I don't think a vacuum leak is possible. It would never be able to hit target.
something might be leaking vacuum when cold, but as it heats up it expands and doesnt leak as bad?
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2016, 02:28 PM   #7
ferocity02
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
226
Rep
1,761
Posts

Drives: 2007 E90 335i
Join Date: May 2014
Location: USA

iTrader: (8)

Look at your logs. Is the DME commanding 0% WGDC when they are stuck open?

Mine fully open at random while cruising but the DME is commanding it. I have no clue why...
__________________
2007 E90 335i Pre-LCI
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2016, 02:52 PM   #8
Antetokounmpo
Colonel
Antetokounmpo's Avatar
United_States
611
Rep
2,687
Posts

Drives: E90 6MT
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: WI

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ferocity02
Look at your logs. Is the DME commanding 0% WGDC when they are stuck open?

Mine fully open at random while cruising but the DME is commanding it. I have no clue why...
I have to pull a log with wgdc on both banks
__________________

Bilstein | Eibach | Hawk HPS | Stoptech 600
Apex Arc-8 | Bridgestone RE-71R 255 Square | LM-32 225 Sq.
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2016, 02:53 PM   #9
Antetokounmpo
Colonel
Antetokounmpo's Avatar
United_States
611
Rep
2,687
Posts

Drives: E90 6MT
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: WI

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat_House
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heel Toe View Post
This also tells me a vacuum leak is possible but since sometimes the wastegates start to function properly I don't think a vacuum leak is possible. It would never be able to hit target.
something might be leaking vacuum when cold, but as it heats up it expands and doesnt leak as bad?
I definitely see what you're saying. I'm going to be doing more vacuum testing tonight. I think I'll do a whole vacuum line refresh.
__________________

Bilstein | Eibach | Hawk HPS | Stoptech 600
Apex Arc-8 | Bridgestone RE-71R 255 Square | LM-32 225 Sq.
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2016, 03:34 PM   #10
cstmx_ryder
Colonel
cstmx_ryder's Avatar
United_States
63
Rep
2,885
Posts

Drives: A metal box with a roundel
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Portland, OR

iTrader: (2)

Send a message via AIM to cstmx_ryder Send a message via MSN to cstmx_ryder
Guys,

I'm experiencing pretty much the exact same thing for my waste-gates. Except mine does it on 'cold-start' AND while the car is warmed up. The 'cold-start' portion is pretty consistent, but once the car warms up to temp, the issue is random, BUT ONLY when I'm cruising. When I'm getting on it, MOST of the time, it boosts normal with the WG closed (I can tell by the way my exhaust sounds, much like the OP).

I'm still trying to pinpoint the issue, but pretty much came to similar conclusions as you guys.

Question:
Are are you guys running Wedge tunes?

Have you guys tried replicating this on 'stock' map?

TIA
__________________

'08 AW E90 335i
PROcede V5 | BMS DCI | RR DPs | ETS FMIC | FORGE DVs | Stett CP | Vanguard | PSS10
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2016, 03:37 PM   #11
Antetokounmpo
Colonel
Antetokounmpo's Avatar
United_States
611
Rep
2,687
Posts

Drives: E90 6MT
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: WI

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cstmx_ryder View Post
Guys,

I'm experiencing pretty much the exact same thing for my waste-gates. Except mine does it on 'cold-start' AND while the car is warmed up. The 'cold-start' portion is pretty consistent, but once the car warms up to temp, the issue is random, BUT ONLY when I'm cruising. When I'm getting on it, MOST of the time, it boosts normal with the WG closed (I can tell by the way my exhaust sounds, much like the OP).

I'm still trying to pinpoint the issue, but pretty much came to similar conclusions as you guys.

Question:
Are are you guys running Wedge tunes?

Have you guys tried replicating this on 'stock' map?

TIA
Wow, you still haven't figured it out? I came across a few threads of yours when I was searching.

Do yours rattle like crazy when driving normally?
__________________

Bilstein | Eibach | Hawk HPS | Stoptech 600
Apex Arc-8 | Bridgestone RE-71R 255 Square | LM-32 225 Sq.
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2016, 03:43 PM   #12
cstmx_ryder
Colonel
cstmx_ryder's Avatar
United_States
63
Rep
2,885
Posts

Drives: A metal box with a roundel
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Portland, OR

iTrader: (2)

Send a message via AIM to cstmx_ryder Send a message via MSN to cstmx_ryder
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heel Toe View Post
Wow, you still haven't figured it out? I came across a few threads of yours when I was searching.

Do yours rattle like crazy when driving normally?
LOL, no I haven't yet. Um.....I don't think mine rattles, I have catless Vanguard exhaust, it's loud so I could be lying when I say I don't have any rattles, could be because I can't hear anything else over the sound of the exhaust hahaha......What I do hear when slowing down to a stop is a 'flapping'/'raspy' sound right as the rpm winds down before reaching 600 rpm (idle rpm), every time, not sure if that's the same as what you guys are talking about.

TIA
__________________

'08 AW E90 335i
PROcede V5 | BMS DCI | RR DPs | ETS FMIC | FORGE DVs | Stett CP | Vanguard | PSS10
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2016, 05:49 PM   #13
Antetokounmpo
Colonel
Antetokounmpo's Avatar
United_States
611
Rep
2,687
Posts

Drives: E90 6MT
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: WI

iTrader: (3)

Another thing that causes me to believe I don't have a vacuum leak is the fact that I had the car turned off for about 30 min then I pulled the lines of the vacuum canisters and I could hear they were still holding vacuum.

I think I may take the solenoids off the car to bench test them tonight.
__________________

Bilstein | Eibach | Hawk HPS | Stoptech 600
Apex Arc-8 | Bridgestone RE-71R 255 Square | LM-32 225 Sq.
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2016, 06:29 PM   #14
bpdef29
Private First Class
44
Rep
147
Posts

Drives: '09 E92 335i
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: OC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heel Toe View Post
I think I may take the solenoids off the car to bench test them tonight.
Yeah, never count those out. My car was boosting every which way (overboost, underboost, surging) and it ended up being those little buggers.
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2016, 08:38 PM   #15
Antetokounmpo
Colonel
Antetokounmpo's Avatar
United_States
611
Rep
2,687
Posts

Drives: E90 6MT
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: WI

iTrader: (3)

http://www.datazap.me/u/heel-toe/log...=4-24-29-30-31

Better log with both wgdc banks.

Both are identical.
__________________

Bilstein | Eibach | Hawk HPS | Stoptech 600
Apex Arc-8 | Bridgestone RE-71R 255 Square | LM-32 225 Sq.
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2016, 09:30 PM   #16
vtl
Colonel
vtl's Avatar
Australia
447
Rep
2,412
Posts

Drives: 2008 BMW 135i MT
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Melbourne, Australia

iTrader: (0)

Vacuum from the cannisters should be around 25inHG or higher. If they're at 15inHg you have a vac issue. You tee'd into the the canisters and didn't leave the port open? Cos 15inHg is what i'd get if i accidentally left the exhaust flap vacuum line disconnected.

Logging wgdc on both banks wont help since the output of the pair of boost solenoids are in parallel. If one fails, the other will have to work both wastegates.
__________________
Build Thread | MHD Stage 2+ | Agency Power DPs | PE Mod Exhaust | 550i Clutch | Wagner FMIC | M3 LSD | Turbosmart Kompact DVs | M3 Control arms | Bilstein B12 ProKit | Dinan Camber Plates | M3 Front Sway | UUC Trans mounts | Nolathane rear subframe bushings | Ferodo DS2500 pads | Yokohama AD08R | 18" BMW 313 Rims | Schroth Harness | M3 Steering Wheel | LEDs | CIC + Combox retrofit
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2016, 09:39 PM   #17
Antetokounmpo
Colonel
Antetokounmpo's Avatar
United_States
611
Rep
2,687
Posts

Drives: E90 6MT
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: WI

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by vtl View Post
Vacuum from the cannisters should be around 25inHG or higher. If they're at 15inHg you have a vac issue. You tee'd into the the canisters and didn't leave the port open? Cos 15inHg is what i'd get if i accidentally left the exhaust flap vacuum line disconnected.

Logging wgdc on both banks wont help since the output of the pair of boost solenoids are in parallel. If one fails, the other will have to work both wastegates.
I actually think my exhaust flap line is disconnected.. I have a muffler delete and I'm pretty sure the shop never plugged it.

I also had a boost issue about 3 months ago, I was like 4 psi under target. Thought it may have been a boost solenoid issue since I couldn't find a boost leak. I also had a bad exhaust vanos solenoid which mostly fixed the issue. I've been like 1-2psi under target ever since. Never enough to throw a 30ff though. I suppose it is possible one of the solenoids failed about 3 months ago and since then both were running off 1 solenoid and maybe now that one failed, does that make any sense?

I couldn't bench test the solenoids since the mityvac I borrowed from work was leaking too...
__________________

Bilstein | Eibach | Hawk HPS | Stoptech 600
Apex Arc-8 | Bridgestone RE-71R 255 Square | LM-32 225 Sq.
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2016, 09:52 PM   #18
vtl
Colonel
vtl's Avatar
Australia
447
Rep
2,412
Posts

Drives: 2008 BMW 135i MT
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Melbourne, Australia

iTrader: (0)

What happens when you start the car up, the exhaust is loud and you hit the boost solenoid with a mallet? If your solenoids are sticky they might respond to some percussive maintenance and if hitting it works then its definitely a solenoid issue.

Also if you shut off the car after its warm and working right and start it up again, does the issue come back again for another 15 minutes of driving?
__________________
Build Thread | MHD Stage 2+ | Agency Power DPs | PE Mod Exhaust | 550i Clutch | Wagner FMIC | M3 LSD | Turbosmart Kompact DVs | M3 Control arms | Bilstein B12 ProKit | Dinan Camber Plates | M3 Front Sway | UUC Trans mounts | Nolathane rear subframe bushings | Ferodo DS2500 pads | Yokohama AD08R | 18" BMW 313 Rims | Schroth Harness | M3 Steering Wheel | LEDs | CIC + Combox retrofit
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2016, 11:17 PM   #19
ferocity02
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
226
Rep
1,761
Posts

Drives: 2007 E90 335i
Join Date: May 2014
Location: USA

iTrader: (8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heel Toe View Post
http://www.datazap.me/u/heel-toe/log...=4-24-29-30-31

Better log with both wgdc banks.

Both are identical.
You need a log of when the wastegates are open during the first 15 mins to see if the DME is commanding 0% WGDC or not.
__________________
2007 E90 335i Pre-LCI
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2016, 11:25 PM   #20
Antetokounmpo
Colonel
Antetokounmpo's Avatar
United_States
611
Rep
2,687
Posts

Drives: E90 6MT
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: WI

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ferocity02 View Post
You need a log of when the wastegates are open during the first 15 mins to see if the DME is commanding 0% WGDC or not.
Wastegates are definitely open in that log, trust me, the car is loud as hell with them open.
__________________

Bilstein | Eibach | Hawk HPS | Stoptech 600
Apex Arc-8 | Bridgestone RE-71R 255 Square | LM-32 225 Sq.
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2016, 11:27 PM   #21
Antetokounmpo
Colonel
Antetokounmpo's Avatar
United_States
611
Rep
2,687
Posts

Drives: E90 6MT
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: WI

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by vtl View Post
What happens when you start the car up, the exhaust is loud and you hit the boost solenoid with a mallet? If your solenoids are sticky they might respond to some percussive maintenance and if hitting it works then its definitely a solenoid issue.

Also if you shut off the car after its warm and working right and start it up again, does the issue come back again for another 15 minutes of driving?

Haven't tried the mallet trick yet. The other day when it was hitting target fine I did turn it off for a few min then back on and I could tell they were functioning properly by the noise.
__________________

Bilstein | Eibach | Hawk HPS | Stoptech 600
Apex Arc-8 | Bridgestone RE-71R 255 Square | LM-32 225 Sq.
Appreciate 0
      08-02-2016, 07:03 AM   #22
Sgop335
Major
Sgop335's Avatar
United_States
193
Rep
1,237
Posts

Drives: 2007 335i Coupe sport pkg
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: MD

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heel Toe View Post
Wastegates are definitely open in that log, trust me, the car is loud as hell with them open.
As some have pointed, could be the wg solenoids. Agreed dme could be commanding them to close but they can still be open when faulty.


They need to be checked correctly,


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgop335 View Post
Relatively easy. Need A good vacuum gage and a helper.

1. Each solenoid is tested separately. The bridge hose is removed and gage connected to the tee with other tee plugged.
2. First car stationary, check idle vacuum for each solenoid. Software rattle setting plays a role here. Let the car idle for few mins and readings stabilize, it may start high and then drop. Should read 14-17in for low lag setting and close to 0 for high lag. I havent checked intermediate mhd rattle settings to know the number.
3. Car moving! Need a helper. Hose should be long enough to route thru passenger window. Checked 3rd and 4th gears. Typical stuff, rpm around 2k, at full throttle gage should quickly spike to abour 20in or more hold there a bit and then drop may be 8 or less. This replicates your wgdc seen in logs. Idle and decel values could be hi or lo depending on sw setting similar to 2.
__________________
Space grau metallic / Dakota red leather
Own tune w MHD, e20, 75f
http://www.datazap.me/u/sgop335/3-no...-9-10-11-12-23
380hp, 390lbft virtual dynojet

Last edited by Sgop335; 08-02-2016 at 07:13 AM.
Appreciate 0
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:04 PM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST