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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Vishnu/FFTEC Single Turbo: New Overall N54 World Record



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      05-10-2012, 04:41 PM   #45
shiv@vishnu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave W. View Post
Nice pass!
In the datalogs it looks like you're crossing the line at 6500rpm which is nearly optimal. I think a 26" tire would let you get off the line quicker and hit a better ET, but you might be bouncing off the rev limit as you cross the line. Keeping the 28" tire leaves room for advancement in the future. From what I've seen of your progress with the single kit I think you'll need it. Just add another 20 HP, practice the launch, tweak the tune to match and the times should continue to fall.

BTW thanks for posting the logs, it's great to see you sharing detailed info at this level.
Thanks Dave. The logs were very useful to me since, during the actual pass, I'm usually just trying to keep the car straight. Not really thinking about how well I'm driving it. The 28" tires to leave some good overhead and I'm hope to be using it soon. I do want to go out and revisit the 60-130 test on regular drag radials (not slicks) since that is probably a more appropriate representation of what the car can do in the real world.
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      05-10-2012, 05:03 PM   #46
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Another video from a better perspective. The issues with the launch are more visible here

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      05-10-2012, 05:18 PM   #47
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Shiv, congrats! Some great driving there. You can distinctly see the bog in the video.
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      05-10-2012, 05:41 PM   #48
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The bog was very apparent there. Shiv's getting a lot of crap for the results, and I'm one of them. But launching mainly and even shifting down the track is not so easy... those revs are coming fast. This run there's multiple things that detracted from the final result, and looks like a little practice will yield better times and traps.

I love it that his car taking a beating though! My future car at 550hp small turbo on street tires will be very happy.
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      05-10-2012, 06:35 PM   #49
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      05-10-2012, 06:47 PM   #50
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Congrats, love how hard you are pushing your car and this platform.
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      05-10-2012, 06:59 PM   #51
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What are the front rebound settings on those fancy new JRZ's? They look pretty tight. If you dial them down you might get better weight transfer to the rear.
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      05-10-2012, 07:12 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themyst View Post
The compressor/turbine has more in them. I've seen some unpublished work with an N20 sensor and you'd be surprised.

There's an unpublished 10 second n54 in Canada as well and the kicker is the owner can barely make a sentence in english and doesn't use a computer

But I don't speak of it because I will get flamed to death... so let's just call this a lie for now, until I can work some magic to get the car to a track.

LM's car easily had a 10 second pass in it if he still had it and could keep the tranny working... I can bet my car on it.



Either way, great work pushing the limits Shiv! The launch looked uneventful in the first vid and i was kinda like ahhh I dnoo... but in the second video I can see what's going on. I'd like to see a 10.7 and the 6.5 mark broken in the 60-130mph mark I think that's where this car truly will shine.
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      05-10-2012, 07:52 PM   #53
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Your car looks lowered now. Has that affected your launching?
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      05-10-2012, 09:49 PM   #54
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I'd call that a bad bog...there's a ton of time available if you can fix that. You can look for more slippage or deeper gearing, but I'd focus on more boost off the line. Are you doing anything to retard timing while on the 2-step yet? On the 4g63 at high elevation the sweet spot seemed to be around 0 degrees of advance...if you retarded too far it would start banging very concussively(?) and I eventually broke a turbo that way. But if you kept it just a little more advanced than that to where it still sounded normal it worked out quite nicely for pretty much exactly what you're trying to do.
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      05-10-2012, 10:25 PM   #55
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Quote:
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I'd call that a bad bog...there's a ton of time available if you can fix that. You can look for more slippage or deeper gearing, but I'd focus on more boost off the line. Are you doing anything to retard timing while on the 2-step yet? On the 4g63 at high elevation the sweet spot seemed to be around 0 degrees of advance...if you retarded too far it would start banging very concussively(?) and I eventually broke a turbo that way. But if you kept it just a little more advanced than that to where it still sounded normal it worked out quite nicely for pretty much exactly what you're trying to do.
I was talking with your old DMSer friend, Dave W, and he said something similar. Looking at the catalogs, timing dropped to 7-8deg just before the launch. Until now, we really never had a reason to do anything with ignition advance or throttle blade control while 2 stepping. Simply because we were always dealing with a traction limitation/wheelspin issue off the line. Now that we are actually bogging due to too much traction and not enough wheel torque, I'll have to go back and adjust 2-step accordingly. One suggestion was to move the clutch switch position lower in the pedal drive (currently, it switches to towards the top of the pedal). This should allow me to slip the clutch as I launch. Whereas right now, my ignition is cutting until just after the clutch starts to grab. So all I am doing is basally a controlled RPM clutch sidestep which clearly isn't working

It would be nice to solve this issue without introduce variables that could possibly damage the turbo. I'd rather the car see some clutch abuse instead since that is more acceptable during standing start, full boost launches with slicks. What do you think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajsalida View Post
What are the front rebound settings on those fancy new JRZ's? They look pretty tight. If you dial them down you might get better weight transfer to the rear.
The rear end compression/rebound (they are single adjustable shocks) were set to max stiffness. The front was full soft to allow for it to lift up. I was going to experiment with slowly softening up the back as the day went on. But, from the start, we were already dealing with a too-much-grip issue. Which is an issue I'm not too familiar with.
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      05-10-2012, 11:14 PM   #56
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Congrats on all the records and progress!!!

I know what you mean when switching tires. I would go back and forth sometimes on the same day. I ran 26" radials NA and 28" slicks on N2O. I found it best to just keep climbing the RPMs till it does not bog. Hang em and bang em! But on boost it is a little bit different since you can adjust boost on launch. But I think you are going to need at least 6krpm either way. I would start there and ease in the boost till it goes.

FYI, I was making about the same power as you at about the same weight. Just had a solid axle not IRS. So that plays a factor as well.

With those numbers and what you learned, I def see a mid 10 in the near future. Good luck!
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      05-10-2012, 11:19 PM   #57
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Disclaimer: I have a lot of launch experience with relatively laggy turbos, but I don't have experience at your power/weight level, where I think Dave might.

1. If moving the clutch switch is feasible, that should help a bit.
2. Slipping the clutch a bit will work, but it's very difficult to be consistent. Unless you go to a carbon/carbon clutch you'll go through clutches pretty fast, too. Not such a big deal for a shop owner but kind of sucks for the rest of us.
3. I don't think you need to be too concerned about the turbo. If you retard the timing and it doesn't sound like gunshots you should be fine. The turbos that don't stand up to heavy 2-step work are usually just the small shaft/oversized wheels ones anyway. If anybody can afford to push the limits in that area it's you and I don't think you'll have any problems.

I hear your concerns but I would still encourage you to create some kind of code where you can set the timing when the clutch switch is activated and will allow you to choose the amount, and just pull one degree each pass until you're happy (while listening for the sound of too much, you'll know it the instant you hear it). The results are so good in my experience that any other solution seems really weak in comparison. Once you settle on a setting you're happy with it will be very consistent and will allow you to focus on other things.

If you decide to focus first on reducing grip instead I'd start with less or no burnout and high pressure. Even cold, slicks on VHT are pretty amazing compared to street tires.
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      05-11-2012, 12:11 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Morris View Post
Disclaimer: I have a lot of launch experience with relatively laggy turbos, but I don't have experience at your power/weight level, where I think Dave might.

1. If moving the clutch switch is feasible, that should help a bit.
2. Slipping the clutch a bit will work, but it's very difficult to be consistent. Unless you go to a carbon/carbon clutch you'll go through clutches pretty fast, too. Not such a big deal for a shop owner but kind of sucks for the rest of us.
3. I don't think you need to be too concerned about the turbo. If you retard the timing and it doesn't sound like gunshots you should be fine. The turbos that don't stand up to heavy 2-step work are usually just the small shaft/oversized wheels ones anyway. If anybody can afford to push the limits in that area it's you and I don't think you'll have any problems.

I hear your concerns but I would still encourage you to create some kind of code where you can set the timing when the clutch switch is activated and will allow you to choose the amount, and just pull one degree each pass until you're happy (while listening for the sound of too much, you'll know it the instant you hear it). The results are so good in my experience that any other solution seems really weak in comparison. Once you settle on a setting you're happy with it will be very consistent and will allow you to focus on other things.

If you decide to focus first on reducing grip instead I'd start with less or no burnout and high pressure. Even cold, slicks on VHT are pretty amazing compared to street tires.
Great info Carl. I appreciate it. Coming from a road racing background, I'm not to experienced with nuances of drag racing. So this is all pretty new to me. But if I can drive this car to a mid to high 10s pass, so should customers making similar power. Probably makes sense to try the least mechanically abusive launching techniques first (higher tire pressure, no burn out) and get a decent, no-bog in the books. If the next step involves lower pressure and launching with clutch slip/more boost, we'll do that next and aim for quicker results. But if we can make things as stress-free as possible and get good results, it will benefit customers more since they, like me, tend to have more mechanical empathy when it comes to this kind of stuff.

Already started working on the revised 2-step logic/clutch switch mod and hopefully it will all be in place soon

Thanks again..
shiv
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      05-11-2012, 02:46 AM   #59
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Shiv - just a suggestion you should creep the fbody/stang forums and get some tips from the v8 boys.
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      05-11-2012, 03:25 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BADS335 View Post
Congrats on all the records and progress!!!

I know what you mean when switching tires. I would go back and forth sometimes on the same day. I ran 26" radials NA and 28" slicks on N2O. I found it best to just keep climbing the RPMs till it does not bog. Hang em and bang em! But on boost it is a little bit different since you can adjust boost on launch. But I think you are going to need at least 6krpm either way. I would start there and ease in the boost till it goes.

FYI, I was making about the same power as you at about the same weight. Just had a solid axle not IRS. So that plays a factor as well.

With those numbers and what you learned, I def see a mid 10 in the near future. Good luck!
Thanks man!
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      05-11-2012, 03:49 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
I was talking with your old DMSer friend, Dave W, and he said something similar. Looking at the catalogs, timing dropped to 7-8deg just before the launch. Until now, we really never had a reason to do anything with ignition advance or throttle blade control while 2 stepping. Simply because we were always dealing with a traction limitation/wheelspin issue off the line. Now that we are actually bogging due to too much traction and not enough wheel torque, I'll have to go back and adjust 2-step accordingly. One suggestion was to move the clutch switch position lower in the pedal drive (currently, it switches to towards the top of the pedal). This should allow me to slip the clutch as I launch. Whereas right now, my ignition is cutting until just after the clutch starts to grab. So all I am doing is basally a controlled RPM clutch sidestep which clearly isn't working

It would be nice to solve this issue without introduce variables that could possibly damage the turbo. I'd rather the car see some clutch abuse instead since that is more acceptable during standing start, full boost launches with slicks. What do you think?
That should help a bit and I definitely agree on focusing on the clutch abuse instead of the turbo abuse.

My question would be why not lower the boost a bit in first gear and raise it some in 2nd and up? I haven't been following your progress on raising power but, why not limit it some early to make launches more consistent and raise it where traction is better?
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      05-11-2012, 06:49 AM   #62
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Congrats shiv
I'm a bit disappointed tho, was expecting a quicker time....
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      05-11-2012, 10:06 AM   #63
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Nice job - get rid of the at slip and bog, you'll be getting the times everyone was hoping for.
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      05-11-2012, 10:39 AM   #64
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Shiv i experienced the same thing when moving to 265/40 MT dr's......I had traction that i've never had before! bog city my 1st day out, best 60 ft I cut was a 2.1 lol. Too afriad to really give it some revs and clutch slip.

You'll find the formula to low 60 fts and then fall into a groove on your shift points.

that being said, are you REALLY sure that a good set of drag radials heated properly on a VHT track won't bite? I mean there are guys running WAY WAY WAY more power cutting crazy 60 fts with them. Boris cut a 1.3 or 1.4 in his e30 running a 80mm with them.

look up djborya on youtube (thats his bimmerforums name, not sure if thats his youtube name) if you find videos where he is not running a wide body then he is on drag radials. Watch them regardless, they are entertaining as hell!

Here is one I could access on my work comp but its with bias ply's and a proper front skinny setup, i'm locked out of YouTube:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...jKnalRp1kYyn8A

ps- mixing bias play and front radials is often a recipe for disaster on the big end, be careful!
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      05-11-2012, 10:44 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
But if I can drive this car to a mid to high 10s pass, so should customers making similar power.
My prediction is that you're only a launch timing setting away...all the other elements are in place.
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      05-11-2012, 10:55 AM   #66
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You can make enough torque off the line. I've seen 3.0L inline 6 wheelie off the line in a front engine car. I've seen little 2.0L I4s pull a wheel or two up as well.

Just need some more boost while standing still and good clutch engagement. Can't wait to see the revised 2-step!
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