E90Post
 


TireRack
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > A STOCK 335i beats the RS4 around VIR!!!



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      06-29-2007, 11:57 AM   #45
musc
Major
 
musc's Avatar
 
Drives: 335is DCT
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: SE USA

Posts: 1,256
iTrader: (5)

Garage List
2004 E46 M3  [0.00]
Why even worry if some Car and Driver staffers think the 335i is the best car all around car in the world? I am sure they have their opinions, just as we all do.

And lap times are going to be variable at different tracks, different drivers.

Seems like some of you live and die by whats printed in these magazines. These magazines are just for entertainment.
__________________
E46 M3 | SMGII | OEM CSL 19s | D/A Race Software | OEM CSL Header | Dixis TI | Streamline Drop in filter | (sold)
E92 335is | DCT | JB4 | E60 Flash | BMS DCI | DPs | BMS CP | BMS OCC | ETS 5" | Stg 2 LPFP | 451/500 DJ at 104
musc is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      06-29-2007, 12:10 PM   #46
zenmaster
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: '13 AH3
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Atlanta

Posts: 1,612
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3000ways View Post
Not just that article, but countless numbers of other articles by Car and Driver. I suspected their corruptness for a while now.

I believe that certain magazines do recieve payments for positive reviews and positive numbers for certain cars.
Just damn! Wow. I've read another reaction where it was stated that the Z4M coulda woulda beat 'em with better than stock tires and a strut tower brace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3000ways View Post
do you really honestly think a 335i is a performance vehicle than a M Z4 Coupe, come on really???
It obviously depends on conditions and how the performance is measured. On that track the Z4M was a big L. That's all the article was saying.
zenmaster is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      06-29-2007, 12:50 PM   #47
sflgator
Major General
 
sflgator's Avatar
 
Drives: '09 MB C63 AMG & '08 MB GL450
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: U.S.

Posts: 5,389
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bnj View Post
Errr, I think you just did And while at it, we are far from 11s when some Evos run 10s. No matter how many "would" or "could" words we use.
If you mod a car, any car for that matter, to the nth degree, that car could potentially be faster than just about any car around. Some of these heavily modded EVOs, Mazda RX7s, RX8s, Honda ricers, etc. can get into the 10.xx-11.xx sec. 1/4 mi. range b/c they've spent many, many thousands of dollars (much more than the car is actually worth in stock form) to get them so fast...massive turbos running at 20+psi, ECU chip reflashes or piggyback computers, downpipes, cams, exhaust, pulleys, etc.

Even Shiv has tuned many EVOs (with the XEDE and then some ) that produce 600+HP and run the 1/4 mi. in the 10sec. or 11sec. range. However, we shouldn't being comparing apples to oranges.

What most of us are talking about here is a simple stock 335i + a $1,300 PROcede piggyback computer...that's it. Let's not try to compare a heavily modded car with a stock car + 1 somewhat inexpensive performance mod (which runs the turbos at a modest 14psi max level).
__________________

|2009 RENNtech MB C63 AMG | Black/Black Leather/Black Maple | Premium II | MultiMedia | iPod |
| TeleAid | Charcoal Filter Delete | BMC High-Flow Air Filters | High-Flow Secondary Cats | Clear Side Markers |
sflgator is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      06-29-2007, 03:12 PM   #48
stressdoc
Moderator
 
stressdoc's Avatar
 
Drives: F80 YMB, 335 E90 ZSP+
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: MO

Posts: 10,039
iTrader: (0)

For all the complaints from the RS4 and Z4 M fan clubs, imagine what must be going on in the P-car forums! The turbo was a slug in the C&D review. Makes little sense to me. Most comparisons of 996/7s against 'vettes and mustangs on tracks like the VIR have the P-cars running away and hiding from the slip-sliding hard to control V8 muscle cars.

For those of you that keep stating that the Z4 M has more power, don't forget that the torque curve is a relevant datum. And the 335 has a big advantage there.
stressdoc is online now   Dominica
0
Reply With Quote
      06-29-2007, 03:43 PM   #49
droptop335
Captain
 
Drives: '06 330i (E90), '07 335i (E93)
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Back in SF Bay Area (Tri-Valley), WooHoo!

Posts: 707
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by stressdoc View Post
For those of you that keep stating that the Z4 M has more power, don't forget that the torque curve is a relevant datum. And the 335 has a big advantage there.
Well stated!
__________________
Alpine White/Coral Red/Gray Poplar Convertible Sport/Prem/Step/Comfort/Nav/Sirius

By the way people: USE YOUR F&*#ING TURN SIGNALS! Pass the word.
droptop335 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      06-29-2007, 04:15 PM   #50
DIRKD
First Lieutenant
 
DIRKD's Avatar
 
Drives: 335 sedan
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: desert

Posts: 304
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
SoCalRS4
I'm not tring to be a dick but I've always wondered why you are on this forum.
DIRKD is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      06-29-2007, 04:18 PM   #51
Carnage
Lieutenant General
 
Carnage's Avatar
 
Drives: people insane
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: classified

Posts: 16,404
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DIRKD View Post
I'm not tring to be a dick but I've always wondered why you are on this forum.
1) He used to own a E90. Remember this place has been here a couple of years.
2) It's called membership open to the public, anyone is welcome as long as they behave themselves.
Carnage is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      06-30-2007, 04:04 AM   #52
serge
Captain
 
serge's Avatar
 
Drives: '11 M3 ZCP (Sold) / '06 C6 Z06
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ramstein, Germany / Grovetown, GA

Posts: 764
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sflgator View Post
I've run against other modded EVO's before, and unless their tuned with turbos running @ 20psi and some other crazy sh!t, a PROcede 335i will walk the EVOs all day long; I guess mostly b/c of the 335i's much higher TQ. If you don't believe me, ask all these others guys on here like Walked U, CEA 3, Max Boost, JonMartin, etc.

btw -- although there's no doubt that the EVO is a great track car and a fast stock car out of the box (and even faster when modded), it's still just an econobox Mitsu, and really shouldn't be compared with a BMW 335i; these 2 cars are just not in the same class...sorry, but true.
1. FYI, Evos run 19.7psi STOCK.

2. Yes, a Procede 335 will walk a stock Evo (good luck finding an unmolested Evo)

3. Any mildly modified Evo would destroy any Procede 335 at the drag. Period. Plenty of VIIIs and IXs with bolt-ons (less than $1.5k) are in the 11's at 115+mph. Most of Proceeded 335s are in the low 13's at 107-108 mph. Have you ever seen the difference at the track between a 11sec car and a 13 one? Devastating.

4. Funny how the Evo is considered a "econobox" car in the States. In Europe and the rest of the world is considered a rallye bred car and it gets much respect, and it is almost as expensive as a 335 in most of European countries. (45k Euros > $60k )
serge is offline   Germany
0
Reply With Quote
      06-30-2007, 04:25 AM   #53
serge
Captain
 
serge's Avatar
 
Drives: '11 M3 ZCP (Sold) / '06 C6 Z06
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ramstein, Germany / Grovetown, GA

Posts: 764
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sflgator View Post
If you mod a car, any car for that matter, to the nth degree, that car could potentially be faster than just about any car around. Some of these heavily modded EVOs, Mazda RX7s, RX8s, Honda ricers, etc. can get into the 10.xx-11.xx sec. 1/4 mi. range b/c they've spent many, many thousands of dollars (much more than the car is actually worth in stock form) to get them so fast...massive turbos running at 20+psi, ECU chip reflashes or piggyback computers, downpipes, cams, exhaust, pulleys, etc.

Even Shiv has tuned many EVOs (with the XEDE and then some ) that produce 600+HP and run the 1/4 mi. in the 10sec. or 11sec. range. However, we shouldn't being comparing apples to oranges.

What most of us are talking about here is a simple stock 335i + a $1,300 PROcede piggyback computer...that's it. Let's not try to compare a heavily modded car with a stock car + 1 somewhat inexpensive performance mod (which runs the turbos at a modest 14psi max level).
Once again, you're wrong. You don't have to spend many thousands of dollars to get into 10's or 11's. For less than $1,500 you have a 11-sec Evo. All you need is a flash, a MBC and a catback. Want to get into 10's? Add $5k and you're there. You don't have to spend more money than the car's value.

I agree with you about not comparing apples to oranges. The 335 is a terrific and seriously quick sedan and I wish I had one instead of my Evo. But hey, we're talking about rough track/drag numbers and this perhaps the only area were the Evo outshines the 335. Don't you agree?
serge is offline   Germany
0
Reply With Quote
      07-02-2007, 12:12 AM   #54
e36jakeo
Captain
 
Drives: 2008 M3 6 Speed MT!
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Northern CA

Posts: 624
iTrader: (0)

Just to add a bit of credibility to this post, I have been instructing for the past 5 years and racing for the past 3.

Some of the reasons a 335i, which seemed outmatched by the M Z4, may have been able to beat it has to do with the confidence the driver needs to push the car to the car's outer limits. This is beyond lateral Gs and slalom speeds: this has to do with predictable behavior. From the article they complained the Z4 understeered on corner entry (slow) and oversteered on corner exit (can be slow, depending on how the driver deals with it). This sounds like a handful, and could lead the driver to back off just a hair in certain tricky sections (especially high speed sections). The stability of the 335i and predictability sounds like it allowed drivers to push it harder than some of the other cars.

Anyone who does a lot of track driving knows that times can vary a HUGE amount (2-3 seconds on a course as big as VIR) based just upon track conditions (hot vs. cold, humid, etc), surface conditions, etc.. Then toss in the fact that each car was driven by different drivers for only a few laps each. Basically this winds up being as much a test of which car is EASY to drive fast in only a few laps as it is which is actually fastest around the track.

I have no doubt that it two professional drivers spent the day testing the Z4 M coupe and 335i at the end of the day the best time would have gone to the M by at least a second (once they learned how to drive around its limitations and get confident pushing it further).

One last note: The M6, which was tested at the 1st VIR "Lightning Lap" was only a HALF SECOND faster than the 335i (3:10.0). That thing should be a LOT faster than that. But again, different day . . .
__________________
Driving sideways: It's not faster, but damn it's more fun!
e36jakeo is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-02-2007, 10:46 AM   #55
foxman
Driver
 
foxman's Avatar
 
Drives: 335i Coupe
Join Date: May 2007
Location: STL

Posts: 265
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by stressdoc View Post

For those of you that keep stating that the Z4 M has more power, don't forget that the torque curve is a relevant datum. And the 335 has a big advantage there.
This is likely responsibe for the difference. Argue about the handling and brakes all day but torque curve matters.
foxman is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-02-2007, 12:31 PM   #56
sdiver68
Expert Road Racer
 
Drives: 07 335i e90, 09 335i e93
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 1,330
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by e36jakeo View Post

Some of the reasons a 335i, which seemed outmatched by the M Z4, may have been able to beat it has to do with the confidence the driver needs to push the car to the car's outer limits. This is beyond lateral Gs and slalom speeds: this has to do with predictable behavior. From the article they complained the Z4 understeered on corner entry (slow) and oversteered on corner exit (can be slow, depending on how the driver deals with it). This sounds like a handful, and could lead the driver to back off just a hair in certain tricky sections (especially high speed sections). The stability of the 335i and predictability sounds like it allowed drivers to push it harder than some of the other cars.

Anyone who does a lot of track driving knows that times can vary a HUGE amount (2-3 seconds on a course as big as VIR) based just upon track conditions (hot vs. cold, humid, etc), surface conditions, etc.. Then toss in the fact that each car was driven by different drivers for only a few laps each. Basically this winds up being as much a test of which car is EASY to drive fast in only a few laps as it is which is actually fastest around the track.

I have no doubt that it two professional drivers spent the day testing the Z4 M coupe and 335i at the end of the day the best time would have gone to the M by at least a second (once they learned how to drive around its limitations and get confident pushing it further).

One last note: The M6, which was tested at the 1st VIR "Lightning Lap" was only a HALF SECOND faster than the 335i (3:10.0). That thing should be a LOT faster than that. But again, different day . . .
All mostly true, but what set of scenarios most represents the usage of these cars, track days and back roads with all levels of drivers and conditions

...or...

Professional drivers with several sessions to dial in both cars?

BTW, imho, conditions can account for way more than 3 seconds on a big track like VIR! At Road America which is a similar size but higher average speed course, I could run 2:28's in the hot and dry and be lucky to be under 2:40 in the cold and damp (on my GSXR600 race bike)
sdiver68 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-02-2007, 01:06 PM   #57
S4to335
Brigadier General
 
Drives: 95 Audi S6
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: San Jose, CA

Posts: 4,377
iTrader: (5)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
All mostly true, but what set of scenarios most represents the usage of these cars, track days and back roads with all levels of drivers and conditions

...or...

Professional drivers with several sessions to dial in both cars?

BTW, imho, conditions can account for way more than 3 seconds on a big track like VIR! At Road America which is a similar size but higher average speed course, I could run 2:28's in the hot and dry and be lucky to be under 2:40 in the cold and damp (on my GSXR600 race bike)
I think the magazine really should have thought that result through..and maybe made it more objective...but with information about what drivers were used...tires used...experience on track...etc.
__________________

Car is now gone .... :-(
S4to335 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-02-2007, 02:43 PM   #58
sdiver68
Expert Road Racer
 
Drives: 07 335i e90, 09 335i e93
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 1,330
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by S4to335 View Post
I think the magazine really should have thought that result through..and maybe made it more objective...but with information about what drivers were used...tires used...experience on track...etc.
I agree.

I also would not want to be the person who sorts through the 'reaction' mail there!
sdiver68 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-02-2007, 03:28 PM   #59
Hegemony
Fast Like Tiger
 
Hegemony's Avatar
 
Drives: 07 M Coupe
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Atlanta

Posts: 372
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by S4to335 View Post
I think the magazine really should have thought that result through..and maybe made it more objective...but with information about what drivers were used...tires used...experience on track...etc.

I've found over the years that the writers for the major US car mag's are as big of fanboi's as the average car forum contributor, and just as objective...
Hegemony is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-02-2007, 04:10 PM   #60
sflgator
Major General
 
sflgator's Avatar
 
Drives: '09 MB C63 AMG & '08 MB GL450
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: U.S.

Posts: 5,389
iTrader: (1)

[quote=boriquaguerrero;1134202]
Quote:
Originally Posted by serge View Post
1. FYI, Evos run 19.7psi STOCK.


3. Any mildly modified Evo would destroy any Procede 335 at the drag. Period. Plenty of VIIIs and IXs with bolt-ons (less than $1.5k) are in the 11's at 115+mph. Most of Proceeded 335s are in the low 13's at 107-108 mph. Have you ever seen the difference at the track between a 11sec car and a 13 one? Devastating.

hey SERGE that shit you smokin is good ....


yeah right with less $1.5k EVOS are in the 11`s
Yeah, that's not what I saw when I went to the track with my PROcede 335i. I ran 13.097sec., while the modded EVO ran 13.7xx sec. Not saying it can't be done, but it obviously depends on the mods, the track, and weather conditions.
__________________

|2009 RENNtech MB C63 AMG | Black/Black Leather/Black Maple | Premium II | MultiMedia | iPod |
| TeleAid | Charcoal Filter Delete | BMC High-Flow Air Filters | High-Flow Secondary Cats | Clear Side Markers |
sflgator is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-02-2007, 05:14 PM   #61
addicted 2 turbo
3rd Brigade Combat Team
 
addicted 2 turbo's Avatar
 
Drives: BMW 335 & 530
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: FORT CARSON, CO

Posts: 422
iTrader: (3)

[quote=sflgator;1134263]
Quote:
Originally Posted by boriquaguerrero View Post

Yeah, that's not what I saw when I went to the track with my PROcede 335i. I ran 13.097sec., while the modded EVO ran 13.7xx sec. Not saying it can't be done, but it obviously depends on the mods, the track, and weather conditions.


I know...... im writing about SERGE saying that with less than 1.5k he could make his EVO run 11`s . .

i seen an evo doing low 10`s but he spend 70k plus in the engine.
__________________
2007 black 335
2001 black 530
2011 honda pilot 1979 mazda RX7 1984 mazda RX7

Last edited by addicted 2 turbo; 07-02-2007 at 05:34 PM.
addicted 2 turbo is offline   Puerto Rico
0
Reply With Quote
      07-02-2007, 05:15 PM   #62
addicted 2 turbo
3rd Brigade Combat Team
 
addicted 2 turbo's Avatar
 
Drives: BMW 335 & 530
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: FORT CARSON, CO

Posts: 422
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by serge View Post
Once again, you're wrong. You don't have to spend many thousands of dollars to get into 10's or 11's. For less than $1,500 you have a 11-sec Evo. All you need is a flash, a MBC and a catback. Want to get into 10's? Add $5k and you're there. You don't have to spend more money than the car's value.

I agree with you about not comparing apples to oranges. The 335 is a terrific and seriously quick sedan and I wish I had one instead of my Evo. But hey, we're talking about rough track/drag numbers and this perhaps the only area were the Evo outshines the 335. Don't you agree?

hey SERGE that shit you smokin is good ....


yeah right with less $1.5k EVOS are in the 11`s probably in the 1/8 of the mile track
__________________
2007 black 335
2001 black 530
2011 honda pilot 1979 mazda RX7 1984 mazda RX7
addicted 2 turbo is offline   Puerto Rico
0
Reply With Quote
      07-03-2007, 03:07 PM   #63
wileecoyote
New Member
 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: May 2007
Location: NJ

Posts: 25
iTrader: (0)

I would imagine Mark Gillies did the track times and if you don't know, he's f'ing fast. He gets paid to race historic and other race cars and I remember reading an article years back when he was with Automobile magazine he tested the then new 360 Modena at Fiorano, One of the Ferrari engineers came over to shake his hand after looking at the telemetry saying he was a hair off of Schumacher's time in the car, one of very few outsiders to do so. So if he drove then you're not going to find a lot more competent drivers to drive and assess track cars.

Plus it's not that much of a reach to think the 335i might beat a M coupe, they're closer than you'd imagine. I checked data for Nurburgring laptimes and several sources show E46 M3 at 8:22 and the same with the Z4 M Coupe, with the 335i at 8:26. That's only 4 seconds over a monstrous track.

And I've read from EVO magazine that the Z4M understeers badly, especially on track. So when that happens you're only option is to just back off a little to tuck in the nose through corners.

In summary, they're pretty close, closer than I thought and I was surprised by the results too.
wileecoyote is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-03-2007, 03:17 PM   #64
davig
Private First Class
 
davig's Avatar
 
Drives: 335i coupe
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Az

Posts: 119
iTrader: (0)

[. BTW, who needs LSD?[/quote]
No kidding if it makes up its time between brake zone and apex.
davig is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-04-2007, 01:40 AM   #65
e36jakeo
Captain
 
Drives: 2008 M3 6 Speed MT!
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Northern CA

Posts: 624
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
All mostly true, but what set of scenarios most represents the usage of these cars, track days and back roads with all levels of drivers and conditions

...or...

Professional drivers with several sessions to dial in both cars?

BTW, imho, conditions can account for way more than 3 seconds on a big track like VIR! At Road America which is a similar size but higher average speed course, I could run 2:28's in the hot and dry and be lucky to be under 2:40 in the cold and damp (on my GSXR600 race bike)
My point is that the cars that were more confidence-inspiring and easier to get in and immediately drive fast at VIR did well in this test. This would also translate to making excellent back roads and track day car for the "average Joe" driver who would not be as skilled at managing oversteer.

As far as conditions affecting times, I should have been clearer. I mean comparing dry track to dry track, since a wet track will increase times by 30 seconds+. But a hot summer day compared to a 60 degree day will decreases both HP and traction and thus makes a big difference in lap times.

Most don't realize just how big of a difference is made by all these factors, plus tire compound, tire pressure, alignment, and even how well the seats hold you in place. The more laps you drive a car the more time you can "find" out there. It is obvious by its lap times it was pretty easy to find time in the 335i.
__________________
Driving sideways: It's not faster, but damn it's more fun!
e36jakeo is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-04-2007, 02:44 AM   #66
bnj
Banned
 
Drives: e92 335i
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Helsinki

Posts: 1,137
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by e36jakeo View Post
My point is that the cars that were more confidence-inspiring and easier to get in and immediately drive fast at VIR did well in this test. This would also translate to making excellent back roads and track day car for the "average Joe" driver who would not be as skilled at managing oversteer.
Nice, 335i is for us
I would consider forum members to be Average Joe 95%. Then there are the 2.5% at the both ends...
Very few of us beats a pro who "has not had enough practice with the car in the track".
bnj is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:16 AM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST