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      05-24-2012, 10:48 PM   #1
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FMIC for N55

How much HP will a FMIC give me if I have AR Catless DP, BMS Intake, Procede Rev 3, Remus Race Exhaust.

What FMIC should I get?
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      05-24-2012, 11:53 PM   #2
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hey man -
the mods dont' stack up like the n54

so far ur look'n at 320-340whp

fill up with high octane run map 2, turn autotune off , map 1 leave as default.
don't up the boost past 16.5 if u start to experiment.
all ur power is gonna be in the mid-range.
shift before 6200-6500rpm
better fuel'n better results - 360-380whp.
ur an xdrive
so someone chime in and help this guy out.

fmic - is up to you.
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      05-25-2012, 12:54 AM   #3
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what would 340whp be at the crank?
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      05-25-2012, 01:38 AM   #4
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add 15-20%
408hp
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      05-25-2012, 08:07 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JcLusso View Post
How much HP will a FMIC give me if I have AR Catless DP, BMS Intake, Procede Rev 3, Remus Race Exhaust.

What FMIC should I get?
An FMIC won't really give you much power, maybe 5-10hp or so, but it will prevent loss of power due to heat soak, make your turbo work less de to lower pressure loss across it.

The best FMIC for the N55 is the ER FMIC by far.

Mike
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      05-25-2012, 08:47 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JcLusso View Post
How much HP will a FMIC give me if I have AR Catless DP, BMS Intake, Procede Rev 3, Remus Race Exhaust.

What FMIC should I get?
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      05-25-2012, 09:09 AM   #7
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Mine made quite a difference in the highr rpm (>4k). By quite a differance I mean ca 15hp if I remember corectly. And as I remember it had quite an effect on the infamous dip on the torque curve.
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      05-31-2012, 07:20 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
An FMIC won't really give you much power, maybe 5-10hp or so, but it will prevent loss of power due to heat soak, make your turbo work less de to lower pressure loss across it.

The best FMIC for the N55 is the ER FMIC by far.

Mike
Helix FMIC gives 10-15hp on a stock tune car and 20+hp through much of the rev range on a tuned car. If you'd like to qualify your "best FMIC by far" statement by subjecting the ER against the Helix in a head to head test we are all for it, because the independant end user datalogs I have seen dont support your statement! we are and have been trying for over a year and a half to get an independent FMIC shootout, are you IN?
FYI
-no intercooler "never heatsoaks"- an intercoolers job is to absorb the heat from the charge air and then release this heat into ambient air charge- there is always a temp change in the mass of the core that can be seen in the ait temps once the core mass is saturated, heavier cores(with the mass in extra charge rows and high fin densities) take longer to heat soak

-no intercooler"fully recovers back to start temps in the time it takes to shift gears"- it takes time for the saturated core to transfer this heat back to the ambient side, thinner thickness intercoolers with larger ambient faces with alot of charge rows(and also have ambient rows on both sides of every charge row) have an advantage in the RECOVERY time, regardless this effect takes time and this time component is longer than the milliseconds-second it takes to shift gears!

if this magic intercooler exists please post the data because i have never seen logs in the 25 years i have been tuning and testing turbo cars and designing heat exchangers that support these statements.

Last edited by TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management; 06-01-2012 at 04:01 PM.
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      05-31-2012, 09:03 AM   #9
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Sorta leaning towards helix now lol
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      05-31-2012, 09:22 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JcLusso View Post
Sorta leaning towards helix now lol
Was in the same position as you about a month ago. After reading an unhealthy amount of FMIC studies, it came down to ETS, ER + Helix. In the end Helix won, they provided an overwhelming amount of data, charts, positive reviews from users and support from the major tuners (Shiv & Terry both run Helix FMICs from what I understand, so that alone speaks volumes).

My Helix FMIC came in the mail yesterday for my N54, but don't worry they also make a N55 kit. Assuming that the N55 kit is of the same quality the N54's is, the shit looks BULLET PROOF. When it came to my house, it was double boxed & loaded with packing peanuts to make sure nothing got bent/dented during shipping. The inlet/outlet tubes were sealed so nothing contaminated the core, tubing + clamps look top notch. I peaked into the core & its a beautiful, tight honeycomb that's just waiting to suck in hot air this summer & pump out charged, cold air to squeeze out a few more ponies from that engine.


I know Mike's running a business & like any other vendor on this site is going to try & push a product, but you're running a group buy right now for ER FMIC's so take his statements w/ a grain of salt (especially since he's just a 3rd party retailer & not even making the core, Helix at least is in here repping their product).
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      05-31-2012, 09:37 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benzy89 View Post
Was in the same position as you about a month ago. After reading an unhealthy amount of FMIC studies, it came down to ETS, ER + Helix. In the end Helix won, they provided an overwhelming amount of data, charts, positive reviews from users and support from the major tuners (Shiv & Terry both run Helix FMICs from what I understand, so that alone speaks volumes).

My Helix FMIC came in the mail yesterday for my N54, but don't worry they also make a N55 kit. Assuming that the N55 kit is of the same quality the N54's is, the shit looks BULLET PROOF. When it came to my house, it was double boxed & loaded with packing peanuts to make sure nothing got bent/dented during shipping. The inlet/outlet tubes were sealed so nothing contaminated the core, tubing + clamps look top notch. I peaked into the core & its a beautiful, tight honeycomb that's just waiting to suck in hot air this summer & pump out charged, cold air to squeeze out a few more ponies from that engine.


I know Mike's running a business & like any other vendor on this site is going to try & push a product, but you're running a group buy right now for ER FMIC's so take his statements w/ a grain of salt (especially since he's just a 3rd party retailer & not even making the core, Helix at least is in here repping their product).
I've sold Helix in the past and sell several brands now (ER, AMS, ETS) and have seen them all. There really isn't a bad FMIC on the market in terms of comparison to stock. My opinion, and its just an opinion is that the ER is the best in terms of seeing them side by side, hearing customer feedback, the fact the ER FMIC comes with all new cold side plumbing (ETS does as well) and the fact ER developed their FMIC on their time attack race car which underwent very harsh racing condition in the California heat.

As for the hp gain claim AFE claims their intake makes 30+hp and they have a dyno showing it so dyno hp gains need to be taken with a grain of salt. Regardless of potential gains I really believe an FMIC should not be considered a power making mod, but one that improves the efficiency of your motor, prevents power loss and makes your turbos work a little less due to the lower pressure gradient.

With a 20+ hp gain we are approaching the gains from catless downpipes and I would never argue that an FMIC nets you anywhere close to the gains catless downpipes do.

Mike
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      05-31-2012, 09:46 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
There really isn't a bad FMIC on the market in terms of comparison to stock.

As for the hp gain claim AFE claims their intake makes 30+hp and they have a dyno showing it so dyno hp gains need to be taken with a grain of salt. Regardless of potential gains I really believe an FMIC should not be considered a power making mod, but one that improves the efficiency of your motor, prevents power loss and makes your turbos work a little less due to the lower pressure gradient.

With a 20+ hp gain we are approaching the gains from catless downpipes and I would never argue that an FMIC nets you anywhere close to the gains catless downpipes do.

Mike
Mike, I 100% agree that there really is no BAD choice with aftermarket FMICs. IMO, Helix has illustrated the results + has the support from users that would make it the BEST option. An FMIC def isn't a performance mod (like a Tune, DPs, or Meth), and like you said it's completely about getting your IATs down + getting the engine back in its comfort zone so it can operate with the increased performance without being overstressed.

I'm not really sure what sparked the AFE comments, but I'm assuming it's cause it was in my sig. I just got it because it was a simple install, increased air flow, looked good in the engine bay & was cheap (bought it used). To think that ANY intake is magically going to make 30 ponies appear would be foolish (almost foolish enough to make me buy AFE's throttle spacer ).
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      05-31-2012, 02:54 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
I've sold Helix in the past and sell several brands now (ER, AMS, ETS) and have seen them all. There really isn't a bad FMIC on the market in terms of comparison to stock. My opinion, and its just an opinion is that the ER is the best in terms of seeing them side by side, hearing customer feedback, the fact the ER FMIC comes with all new cold side plumbing (ETS does as well) and the fact ER developed their FMIC on their time attack race car which underwent very harsh racing condition in the California heat.

As for the hp gain claim AFE claims their intake makes 30+hp and they have a dyno showing it so dyno hp gains need to be taken with a grain of salt. Regardless of potential gains I really believe an FMIC should not be considered a power making mod, but one that improves the efficiency of your motor, prevents power loss and makes your turbos work a little less due to the lower pressure gradient.

With a 20+ hp gain we are approaching the gains from catless downpipes and I would never argue that an FMIC nets you anywhere close to the gains catless downpipes do.

Mike
Mike,

Have you seen the latest version of the Helix (with the rounded face and charge tube bars) side by side the ER? We have an extremely tedious QC process before we ship and with several hundred fmics in circulation you would be hard pressed to find ANY negative posts on our product, this can't be said about many of our competitors products and a quick search on this forum and 1 addicts will show this... what actually passes QC other places would be sold as blemished cooler(for a discount) OR be thrown in a trash heap at Helix

As far as our claim of 20+ HP on a tuned car, unlike other manufacturers we don't quote or post our in house testing rather we use INDEPENDENT data ie ait data, dyno data that our customers post on the forums. So it's not a claim it's fact, the Helix FMIC makes that much power because it keeps AIT so low that the tuning maximizes the cold AIT mapping ie it maximizes timing and boost. I will try and find one of our customers(rnmevo)dyno data that shows these gains. We do things differently than other companies as we rely on our customer data, dont make outlandish claims, don't do sales pitches and don't back down if someone wants to do a head to head test as we know our product works exactly as we state! this may be the reason we are still here supporting the community after all these years when others have disappeared and/or no longer sell their product.

Since you have access to many aftermarket FMIC's would you be willing to put them up in an INDEPENDENT shootout? As has been said previously we will provide the shop, the test equipment and the dyno and will instruct the tester how to use them but will not run the tests so no one can cry foul. We want this information out there to end discussions like this once and for all.

Some Helix FMIC facts:
-Best AIT control of any bolt on FMIC
-has been pushed to 640whp, so no power ceiling or need to change if going BIG turbo.
-86% efficiency in a 2-3-4 gear run
-20+HP increase through much of the rpm range on a tuned car
-Highest thermal mass of any bolt on FMIC
-an exposed ambient face 70% larger than stock height but thicker intercoolers
-13 charge rows vs 7-10 on stock height intercoolers
-used and tested on cars that Autocross, race in road course and cannonball run style endurance events
-the only manufacturer willing to submit to an INDEPENDENT FMIC SHOOTOUT

Lastly while there may be no bad choice in aftermarket FMICs when compared to stock there is a BEST choice...

Last edited by TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management; 06-01-2012 at 04:07 PM.
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      05-31-2012, 03:07 PM   #14
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Good thread.

Helix definitely has moved up my list. Top two are definitely ER and Helix at this point.
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      05-31-2012, 05:35 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TTurboBullett View Post
Mike,

Have you seen the latest version of the Helix (with the rounded face and charge tube bars) side by side the ER? We have an extremely tedious QC process before we ship and with several hundred fmics in circulation you would be hard pressed to find ANY negative posts on our product, this can't be said about many of our competitors products and a quick search on this forum and 1 addicts will show this... what actually passes QC other places would be sold as blemished cooler(for a discount) OR be thrown in a trash heap at Helix

As far as our claim of 20+ HP on a tuned car, unlike other manufacturers we don't quote or post our in house testing rather we use INDEPENDANT data ie ait data, dyno data that our customers post on the forums. So it's not a claim it's fact, the Helix FMIC makes that much power because it keeps AIT so low that the tuning maximizes the cold AIT mapping ie it maximizes timing and boost. I will try and find one of our customers(rnmevo)dyno data that shows these gains. We do things differently than other companies as we rely on our customer data, dont make outlandish claims, don't do sales pitches and don't back down if someone wants to do a head to head test as we know our product works exactly as we state! this may be the reason we are still here supporting the community after all these years when others have disappeared and/or no longer sell their product.

Since you have access to many aftermarket FMIC's would you be willing to put them up in an INDEPENDANT shootout? As has been said previously we will provide the shop, the test equipment and the dyno and will instruct the tester how to use them but will not run the tests so no one can cry foul. We want this information out there to end discussions like this once and for all.

Some Helix FMIC facts:
-Best AIT control of any bolt on FMIC
-has been pushed to 640whp, so no power ceiling or need to change if going BIG turbo.
-86% efficiency in a 2-3-4 gear run
-20+HP increase through much of the rpm range on a tuned car
-Highest thermal mass of any bolt on FMIC
-an exposed ambient face 70% larger than stock height but thicker intercoolers
-13 charge rows vs 7-10 on stock height intercoolers
-used and tested on cars that Autocross, race in road course and cannonball run style endurance events
-the only manufacturer willing to submit to an INDEPENDANT FMIC SHOOTOUT

Lastly while there may be no bad choice in aftermarket FMICs when compared to stock there is a BEST choice...
You're marketing very aggressively

Showing dyno gains for an FMIC isn't really where the benefit is, IMO. Perhaps a better test would be to do 3-5 laps on a road circuit and look at IATs. (Saying that there is probably too much variables to account for any differences)

Contact some other manufacturer's and see if they want to do something, but a dyno glory run test doesn't prove much in terms of FMIC performance... (My opinion)

Mike
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      06-01-2012, 12:35 PM   #16
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Despite some of the understandable bias I think this is a good little intercooler discussion you guys are having. Mike and TurboBullett have both made some fair and valid points. I personally would love to see a well designed head to head test of the top brands for FMIC. But pulling off such a test while reducing variables and maintaining the integrity of the data would be difficult. And if you could come up with a way to do an accurate bench check and real world installed test that would be a bonus. If there were such a test here are some data points I would like to see (perhaps these are wishful thinking):
-ambiant temp of the cooling air across the IC face
-Temps just prior and just after IC. (taken as close to the IC as possible)
-pressure just prior and just after IC. (taken as close to the IC as possible)
-"heatsoke" the IC to a predetermined value and log how long it takes to come back to close to ambient temps: sitting static, with simulated 60mph driving, sitting still but with radiator fan running (like at a traffic light or in the staging lanes)
-head to head comparison of IAT after a 1/4 mile run, 3 laps of autocross, and a five mile extended high speed autobahn blast. (3 runs for each to set an average)

I have been considering both the Helix and the ER. They both seem to be good choices but I still have some concerns for both:

the ER:
-How is easy is the install? How much do I have to cut? I can't recall ever seeing a DIY, picture, or video of one installed with the bumper on. This makes me think there may be issues with everything fitting together perfect after the install or the install is a nightmare. Why is there no DIY video on their site?
-I love the idea of the CF shroud but again, how well does it fit on a non race car application.

the Helix:
-I understand the concept of having more frontal area on the IC but how much does that taller face of the IC affect cooling during extended hard driving? I need to get back under the car and look but I think it will also cover another heat exchanger...is this for the AC? Again how should I be concerned about this?
-There are no clips for the bottom of the fan shroud (I think this is also true for the ER). My concern here is that at higher speeds the fan will be pushed away by air pressure and reduce radiator and IC efficiency.
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      06-01-2012, 02:03 PM   #17
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I'm kinda leaning towards the Dinan FMIC....
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      06-01-2012, 02:06 PM   #18
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From the Dinan website:

Greater power gains are achieved with a larger high performance intercooler. The Dinan intercooler provides a 93% increase in total volume, substantially reducing the pressure drop by 0.7 psi, as well as providing more efficient heat exchange. "Cool down" time is also reduced, enabling the cars to produce full power under varying driving conditions such as stop and go traffic. The system has been engineered as a direct replacement for the stock unit, requiring only minor modifications for a clean, factory-like installation. The intercooler also features larger connector tubing and custom shrouding for maximum efficiency. The improved thermal efficiency will also enhance turbocharger reliability. The intercooler may also be used in conjunction with the Dinan oil cooler and Stage 3 Engine Software with increased boost pressure to take advantage of the improved intercooler efficiency. *Dyno results for Stage 3 engine software; Dinan Intercooler; Dinan Oil Cooler, Free Flow Exhaust.
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      06-01-2012, 06:07 PM   #19
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Very interesting stuff posted here

I would really like to know what the difference is between Helix and ER concerning install!
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      06-01-2012, 06:28 PM   #20
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I would be interested in having my car as a test for this head to head battle if it happens. I currently don't have an aftermarket intercooler but would like one in the future. Let me know Helix/Mike. Haha
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      06-01-2012, 07:22 PM   #21
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I have the same setup as badblk but with helix fmic. Could be interesting
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      06-01-2012, 08:21 PM   #22
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I was looking at the $600 Active Autowerks FMIC.

I mean if you're not gonna track the car, is it going to make that much of a difference to pony up an extra $400 - $500?

Pretty sure the AA would be a considerable improvement over stock for daily driving and the occasional track day, especially for those not wanting to go crazy with huge turbos / meth / etc... later on. I don't need an FMIC that can take 600+ hp, I'm never going to build the car that much anyways.
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