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      01-10-2015, 12:14 AM   #1
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Open Flash Tablet bad rep vs COBB AP

I have a question for those that can help me understand something. It seems that the open flash tablet gets a bad rap but not sure why. From what I can tell, it is a competing product to the COBB AP. It offers a reliable stand alone flash map loading device with logging and gauge display functionality in a user friendly user interface. If people dont like the OFT, why is the COBB AP given such high praises? What does the COBB AP do that OFT cant do? Also its almost half the price of the COBB AP. I get that the source of the OFT is the open source flash tuning effort that went on in the community but basically what was opened there also opened up what COBB was doing, right? And really the product being sold is the stand alone computer and user interface like the COBB AP, not so much the open source flash tuning. Also using the open source flash on a home computer has proven to be risky and unreliable in many cases and not as user friendly as COBB AP and OFT. This is why Wedge Performance wont support doing e Tunes on BB flash AP but does on COBB AP and also OFT. I also get that some did not like Shiv's marketing tactics although I will say that some key vendors currently in the N54 community are far worse than what he ever was, not saying its an excuse but seems to be more tolerance for bad supplier actions now? I guess alot of that "bad marketing" stuff was really driven by alot of back and forth between the JB and PROcede camps going at each other. But lets leave Shiv out of it for now...what does the COBB AP do that OFT doesn't? I'm asking honestly to find out, no other agenda than that. Lets also leave the forum support out of it for now. I am just curious functionality and feature wise, what the difference is?
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      01-10-2015, 01:17 AM   #2
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The Open flash is a very good product in terms of the power you get.
Pros: it is cheaper than Cobb
Cons: lacks some features, slower.
That being said the reason why it is not popular at all is because it lacks after purchase support since Vishnu tuning is not involved anymore with BMWs
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      01-10-2015, 01:19 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
The Open flash is a very good product in terms of the power you get.
Pros: it is cheaper than Cobb
Cons: lacks some features, slower.
That being said the reason why it is not popular at all is because it lacks after purchase support since Vishnu tuning is not involved anymore with BMWs
can you expand on the two cons you listed please?
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      01-10-2015, 02:26 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by SlickSilver View Post
I have a question for those that can help me understand something. It seems that the open flash tablet gets a bad rap but not sure why. From what I can tell, it is a competing product to the COBB AP. It offers a reliable stand alone flash map loading device with logging and gauge display functionality in a user friendly user interface. If people dont like the OFT, why is the COBB AP given such high praises? What does the COBB AP do that OFT cant do? Also its almost half the price of the COBB AP. I get that the source of the OFT is the open source flash tuning effort that went on in the community but basically what was opened there also opened up what COBB was doing, right? And really the product being sold is the stand alone computer and user interface like the COBB AP, not so much the open source flash tuning. Also using the open source flash on a home computer has proven to be risky and unreliable in many cases and not as user friendly as COBB AP and OFT. This is why Wedge Performance wont support doing e Tunes on BB flash AP but does on COBB AP and also OFT. I also get that some did not like Shiv's marketing tactics although I will say that some key vendors currently in the N54 community are far worse than what he ever was, not saying its an excuse but seems to be more tolerance for bad supplier actions now? I guess alot of that "bad marketing" stuff was really driven by alot of back and forth between the JB and PROcede camps going at each other. But lets leave Shiv out of it for now...what does the COBB AP do that OFT doesn't? I'm asking honestly to find out, no other agenda than that. Lets also leave the forum support out of it for now. I am just curious functionality and feature wise, what the difference is?
The OFT has some major short comings. Doesn't allow you to log all the required channels to truly tune the car. COBB also allows for the torque ceiling to be raised by default up out of the way so you don't get the over torque errors the stock bin gets when you increase the load too high. At more than half the price, it just isn't worth it. The lack of support is another driving factor. Look at the PROcede. It was a Haltech EMS solution which is light years more advance than the JB4. No one cared because their just wasn't the support. Cost and support drove people away from the Vishnu market. The XDF files also have issues which have no support today unless you fix them yourself and some of the tables are had to find if not impossible.

If someone builds an app that logs and flashes like COBB and provides other features not included in COBB like adaptation reset and its a fraction of the price, then things will change, but not for OFT.
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      01-10-2015, 03:58 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WedgePerformance View Post
The OFT has some major short comings. Doesn't allow you to log all the required channels to truly tune the car. COBB also allows for the torque ceiling to be raised by default up out of the way so you don't get the over torque errors the stock bin gets when you increase the load too high. At more than half the price, it just isn't worth it. The lack of support is another driving factor. Look at the PROcede. It was a Haltech EMS solution which is light years more advance than the JB4. No one cared because their just wasn't the support. Cost and support drove people away from the Vishnu market. The XDF files also have issues which have no support today unless you fix them yourself and some of the tables are had to find if not impossible.

If someone builds an app that logs and flashes like COBB and provides other features not included in COBB like adaptation reset and its a fraction of the price, then things will change, but not for OFT.

Well said
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      01-10-2015, 08:42 AM   #6
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So does COBB not have adaption resets?

Also I'm not sure about torque errors, I don't currently have any tune related codes from the OFT.

To me the biggest flaw of OFT is support. I've had to rely on the community for support where Shiv really shoulda helped.
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      01-10-2015, 01:09 PM   #7
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Thanks Wedge!
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      01-10-2015, 01:43 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by CarAbuser View Post
So does COBB not have adaption resets?

Also I'm not sure about torque errors, I don't currently have any tune related codes from the OFT.

To me the biggest flaw of OFT is support. I've had to rely on the community for support where Shiv really shoulda helped.
Just ECU reset which doesn't reset the fueling. We see after multiple flashes the LTFTs get a little out of control. Good to hit the adaptations with INPA once in awhile to keep things in check. Yes it takes a bit of driving for things to settle back in, but worth it if things are out of control.

Torque related issues could be unexplained timing drops without corrections. You would need to log Torque Limit Active which is not available on OFT.
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      01-10-2015, 04:34 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WedgePerformance View Post
The OFT has some major short comings. Doesn't allow you to log all the required channels to truly tune the car. COBB also allows for the torque ceiling to be raised by default up out of the way so you don't get the over torque errors the stock bin gets when you increase the load too high. At more than half the price, it just isn't worth it. The lack of support is another driving factor. Look at the PROcede. It was a Haltech EMS solution which is light years more advance than the JB4. No one cared because their just wasn't the support. Cost and support drove people away from the Vishnu market. The XDF files also have issues which have no support today unless you fix them yourself and some of the tables are had to find if not impossible.

If someone builds an app that logs and flashes like COBB and provides other features not included in COBB like adaptation reset and its a fraction of the price, then things will change, but not for OFT.
Wedge,
what do you mean that the XDF files have issues for the OFT? xdf file seems to have full definition for all the changed parameters when running the compare function in tuner pro. On the other hand, when I run the compare function on the BMS backend flashes, there are several modified memory locations that dont have an XDF definition in the BMS XDF file.
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      01-10-2015, 04:38 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WedgePerformance View Post
Just ECU reset which doesn't reset the fueling. We see after multiple flashes the LTFTs get a little out of control. Good to hit the adaptations with INPA once in awhile to keep things in check. Yes it takes a bit of driving for things to settle back in, but worth it if things are out of control.

Torque related issues could be unexplained timing drops without corrections. You would need to log Torque Limit Active which is not available on OFT.
Does this torque ceiling "issue" mean anything to anybody not trying to break records? You did a lot of wedge flashes before you started on Cobb and I don't recall any timing drops, tq limiting or basically anything related to this "issue". Where exactly is this limit at which it kicks in and causes issues. All your old tuning and customer raving using the same logic/tuning suite as the OFT is kinda going to work against you now. You can't now come say its critically limited after tuning probably 100s of cars with it.

I get there are some exclusive to Cobb tuning parameters/logic that Cobb has unlocked and limited logging abilities of the OFT but all this matters pretty much to only those who want custom tuning. Anybody that's going to buy a Cobb and run OTS maps (which must be 80% of its customers) isn't getting anything to justify paying 40% more for it (just like a $200 cable makes it not justifiable to buy a $500 OFT). Those people probably don't even log, just bolt on the parts they say bolt on and go. Its hard to argue a dyno proven 350whp/390wtq (more than once) on OTS OFT stage 1 map and a 11 sec 115mph run on OTS e40 map with a FBO xi isn't worth the savings for somebody who thinks OTS levels of power is enough or never plans on custom tuning (you laugh but there are tons of people who think just a OTS stage 1 is more than adequate/satisfying).
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      01-10-2015, 05:37 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlickSilver View Post
Wedge,
what do you mean that the XDF files have issues for the OFT? xdf file seems to have full definition for all the changed parameters when running the compare function in tuner pro. On the other hand, when I run the compare function on the BMS backend flashes, there are several modified memory locations that dont have an XDF definition in the BMS XDF file.
There's a few typos in Shiv's XDF files which are carried across all ROM revisions.
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      01-10-2015, 06:56 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanlalee View Post
Does this torque ceiling "issue" mean anything to anybody not trying to break records? You did a lot of wedge flashes before you started on Cobb and I don't recall any timing drops, tq limiting or basically anything related to this "issue". Where exactly is this limit at which it kicks in and causes issues. All your old tuning and customer raving using the same logic/tuning suite as the OFT is kinda going to work against you now. You can't now come say its critically limited after tuning probably 100s of cars with it.

I get there are some exclusive to Cobb tuning parameters/logic that Cobb has unlocked and limited logging abilities of the OFT but all this matters pretty much to only those who want custom tuning. Anybody that's going to buy a Cobb and run OTS maps (which must be 80% of its customers) isn't getting anything to justify paying 40% more for it (just like a $200 cable makes it not justifiable to buy a $500 OFT). Those people probably don't even log, just bolt on the parts they say bolt on and go. Its hard to argue a dyno proven 350whp/390wtq (more than once) on OTS OFT stage 1 map and a 11 sec 115mph run on OTS e40 map with a FBO xi isn't worth the savings for somebody who thinks OTS levels of power is enough or never plans on custom tuning (you laugh but there are tons of people who think just a OTS stage 1 is more than adequate/satisfying).
I don't disagree and you have a valid point. Stacking and flash only are two very different situations. Without having to worry about boost control its not hard to dial a map in and you can keep your load request low enough to keep from having torque related issues. This effects AT and DCT cars more because they rely on the torque output to manage demand on the transmissions.

For flash only tuning that Stage 0 has the best boost control and will be easier to keep boost from osculating if you want to increase boost with OFT. Just a hint...

You get what you pay for. The future is still open to other options (hint hint). This platform is not dead and it's just going to keep growing. As new options become available issues like this will no longer be an issue.
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      01-11-2015, 10:17 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WedgePerformance
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanlalee View Post
Does this torque ceiling "issue" mean anything to anybody not trying to break records? You did a lot of wedge flashes before you started on Cobb and I don't recall any timing drops, tq limiting or basically anything related to this "issue". Where exactly is this limit at which it kicks in and causes issues. All your old tuning and customer raving using the same logic/tuning suite as the OFT is kinda going to work against you now. You can't now come say its critically limited after tuning probably 100s of cars with it.

I get there are some exclusive to Cobb tuning parameters/logic that Cobb has unlocked and limited logging abilities of the OFT but all this matters pretty much to only those who want custom tuning. Anybody that's going to buy a Cobb and run OTS maps (which must be 80% of its customers) isn't getting anything to justify paying 40% more for it (just like a $200 cable makes it not justifiable to buy a $500 OFT). Those people probably don't even log, just bolt on the parts they say bolt on and go. Its hard to argue a dyno proven 350whp/390wtq (more than once) on OTS OFT stage 1 map and a 11 sec 115mph run on OTS e40 map with a FBO xi isn't worth the savings for somebody who thinks OTS levels of power is enough or never plans on custom tuning (you laugh but there are tons of people who think just a OTS stage 1 is more than adequate/satisfying).
I don't disagree and you have a valid point. Stacking and flash only are two very different situations. Without having to worry about boost control its not hard to dial a map in and you can keep your load request low enough to keep from having torque related issues. This effects AT and DCT cars more because they rely on the torque output to manage demand on the transmissions.

For flash only tuning that Stage 0 has the best boost control and will be easier to keep boost from osculating if you want to increase boost with OFT. Just a hint...

You get what you pay for. The future is still open to other options (hint hint). This platform is not dead and it's just going to keep growing. As new options become available issues like this will no longer be an issue.
Looking forward to a "hint hint" announcement as I think there is still room for improvement as far as tuning options
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      01-30-2015, 06:42 AM   #14
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I spotted some dyno graphs comparing a Cobb map with an OFT map, and the Cobb had a lot of peaks and valleys, vs the OFT map was smooth and predictable, which is what swayed me to buy the OFT.

I don't think I bookmarked that thread though, and can't recall if the cars tested were automatics or manual trans. I do understand a little about adaptations and how automatics use torque output, but I don't know if that would necessarily produce a dyno graph with peaks and valleys throughout the rpm range.

Can anyone here site a good dyno graph comparison between the Cobb and OFT maps?
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      01-30-2015, 12:50 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by trading10 View Post
I spotted some dyno graphs comparing a Cobb map with an OFT map, and the Cobb had a lot of peaks and valleys, vs the OFT map was smooth and predictable, which is what swayed me to buy the OFT.

I don't think I bookmarked that thread though, and can't recall if the cars tested were automatics or manual trans. I do understand a little about adaptations and how automatics use torque output, but I don't know if that would necessarily produce a dyno graph with peaks and valleys throughout the rpm range.

Can anyone here site a good dyno graph comparison between the Cobb and OFT maps?
In reality there is not much difference between the two devices. From a tune perspective, COBB writes the checksum for the torque ceiling which allows them to raise the torque limits up out of the way. Other than that, they both do basically the same thing. COBB is a delivery device just like OFT. Although COBB put a lot more R&D into developing the product as well as their tuning application and it's able to log a lot more channels with their expanded PID set, but that doesn't mean they are doing anything special like people would like you to believe.

So, bottom line, you looked at two graphs. The tune for the OFT was better than the tune from the COBB, has nothing to do with the delivery device, just a better tune.

Keep your eyes open as there are going to be a lot of cool things hitting the market place this your for the N54 platform.
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      05-01-2015, 01:38 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WedgePerformance View Post
In reality there is not much difference between the two devices. From a tune perspective, COBB writes the checksum for the torque ceiling which allows them to raise the torque limits up out of the way. Other than that, they both do basically the same thing. COBB is a delivery device just like OFT. Although COBB put a lot more R&D into developing the product as well as their tuning application and it's able to log a lot more channels with their expanded PID set, but that doesn't mean they are doing anything special like people would like you to believe.

So, bottom line, you looked at two graphs. The tune for the OFT was better than the tune from the COBB, has nothing to do with the delivery device, just a better tune.

Keep your eyes open as there are going to be a lot of cool things hitting the market place this your for the N54 platform.
Hey guys I don't mean to high jack the thread but you guys are obviously very knoledgable and I was wondering if you could help answer a question for me

I have an oft and jb4. I used the tablet to flash the bms pump flash. Recently the tablet died on mè and I'm wondering how I can lead my stock tune back on so when I pick up the mhd app to flash the latest tunes the initial read and backup will have my cars original flash on it. I have a Copy of my original rom
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      05-01-2015, 11:15 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Dcara View Post
Hey guys I don't mean to high jack the thread but you guys are obviously very knoledgable and I was wondering if you could help answer a question for me

I have an oft and jb4. I used the tablet to flash the bms pump flash. Recently the tablet died on mè and I'm wondering how I can lead my stock tune back on so when I pick up the mhd app to flash the latest tunes the initial read and backup will have my cars original flash on it. I have a Copy of my original rom
With MHD, you have a flash to stock option which will get you back to stock. Then you can also do a quick backup which takes a few seconds. At that point you can flash the BMS rom.
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      05-01-2015, 04:38 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by WedgePerformance View Post
With MHD, you have a flash to stock option which will get you back to stock. Then you can also do a quick backup which takes a few seconds. At that point you can flash the BMS rom.
OK. so would I load my stock rom to the app first? If not how would it know what my stock rom was? I'm not an expert but I had been told that ROMS from the same make and model may differ and that tunes should alway be made to your factory ROM...

For that reason even with the BMS flashes I have been comparing them to my stock ROM and applying the differences rather than just flashing the BMS ROM that I download.

Is what I had been told not true? Sorry if it's just a bunch of crap, but that is what I was told...
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      05-01-2015, 06:32 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Dcara View Post
OK. so would I load my stock rom to the app first? If not how would it know what my stock rom was? I'm not an expert but I had been told that ROMS from the same make and model may differ and that tunes should alway be made to your factory ROM...

For that reason even with the BMS flashes I have been comparing them to my stock ROM and applying the differences rather than just flashing the BMS ROM that I download.

Is what I had been told not true? Sorry if it's just a bunch of crap, but that is what I was told...
You do not require anything but MHD... MHD has logic built in to look a the original ZUSB number and VIN even if you flashed BMS to do a restore to factory flash. At that time you can also use the quick backup options which MHD does not copy your rom, but generates an original bin file which is based on your VIN. Do not compare MHD to anything you were told in the past. It has options and features the go above and beyond.
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      05-01-2015, 06:46 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WedgePerformance View Post
You do not require anything but MHD... MHD has logic built in to look a the original ZUSB number and VIN even if you flashed BMS to do a restore to factory flash. At that time you can also use the quick backup options which MHD does not copy your rom, but generates an original bin file which is based on your VIN. Do not compare MHD to anything you were told in the past. It has options and features the go above and beyond.
OK perfect! Thanks for all the help! I guess I'll have to do more research on exactly what MHD is.
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      05-01-2015, 06:57 PM   #21
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OK perfect! Thanks for all the help! I guess I'll have to do more research on exactly what MHD is.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...hd.flasher.n54

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1096242
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      05-01-2015, 07:11 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WedgePerformance View Post
You do not require anything but MHD... MHD has logic built in to look a the original ZUSB number and VIN even if you flashed BMS to do a restore to factory flash. At that time you can also use the quick backup options which MHD does not copy your rom, but generates an original bin file which is based on your VIN. Do not compare MHD to anything you were told in the past. It has options and features the go above and beyond.
Does this mean MHD can act like WinKFP and flash any car back to any stock ROM revision?

I'm currently on INA0S. But say in a years time BMW start to roll out IPA0S(or whatever the next ROM will be) can I use MHD to flash my DME back to INA0S to allow me to use my tuned INA0S ROM?
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