E90Post
 


200MPH
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Tuner Says jb3/4 is horrid?!?!



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      06-07-2012, 10:54 AM   #23
JTracy223
Private
 
JTracy223's Avatar
 
Drives: 07 335i Coupe 6MT
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: South Jersey/Philly

Posts: 77
iTrader: (0)

LOVE my JB4... Can not beat the bang for buck. And get a CDV (clutch delete valve) something like 20$ bucks will cure your hard 1-2 shift... it did for me! Enjoy the beast!
JTracy223 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      06-07-2012, 10:56 AM   #24
hemi to e90
Lieutenant Colonel
 
hemi to e90's Avatar
 
Drives: 10 335i, 08 s550
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: staten island

Posts: 1,545
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eb_xi View Post
Just picked up a 08 335xi 6spd on Monday. I talked to my old Subaru tuner who also tunes bmw's with amazing results. He said to stay away from the jb3/4 said it was a shitbox not a juice box lol. My question is how do they actually preform? Are they that good that it's hurting his tuning business? I've searched and searched but all I can find is good things and good results. Reliable? Safe? Driveability? I've tuned cars before so that doesn't scare me, nor does the easy install. I'm just wondering that for 500$ is it too good to be true? Please chime in with your good, bad, ugly stories. I'm looking for 400awhp daily driven so tune+DCI+downpipes+meth/FMIC. Also, 2 things off topic but do people have problems when slamming their 335xi's on coilovers? I like my cars Very low. To do so, recommended suspension; pss9/10, kw, H&R, ST? I'm looking to be lower than 2" and all the coils ivi seen are 2" max. Last but not least my car shifts very hard from 1-2nd gear am I missing something or is it just the nature of the beast? Ps car has 16,xxx miles on it.
this shit does piss me off and i blame cobb. i had a similar situation with a tuner in ct, he told me that a meth, tune, intake, fmic, and downpipe car wont make 400whp on a rwd 335i without a "custom tune", that hed provide.

that tune would cost me $895 for the cobb + $1000 for him. he'd also need the car for 3 days and that i should expect 200-400 miles on it to be put on.

sorry, but cobb opened up a bag of potential abuse my these asshats.
__________________
hemi to e90 is offline   Poland
0
Reply With Quote
      06-07-2012, 11:03 AM   #25
rader1
Banned
 
Drives: Cobb Stage 2+ 135i
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Roanoke, VA

Posts: 2,197
iTrader: (0)

Tunes work on this platform that wouldn't work(ie grenaded engines) on other platform due to the excellent knock detection/deterrent system. Riding the knock sensor and O2 sensor biasing/rail pressure manipulation worked in the early days but there are good options available now.

Give your tuner a try and see how it goes.
rader1 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      06-07-2012, 11:04 AM   #26
Krells
Private First Class
 
Drives: 07 335i
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Atlanta

Posts: 194
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by E3r2E9r View Post
This actually doesn't surprise me. A real tuner would follow common tuning practices, which would include ignition tuning. The Jb3 and Jb4 dont do that. Does it work on this car anyway, somewhat.
To be fair, most tuners creating custom flash maps refer to both piggybacks as junk.
Krells is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      06-07-2012, 11:10 AM   #27
shiv@vishnu
 
shiv@vishnu's Avatar
 
Drives: PROcede v5
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SF Bay, CA

Posts: 17,609
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by E3r2E9r View Post
This actually doesn't surprise me. A real tuner would follow common tuning practices, which would include ignition tuning. The Jb3 and Jb4 dont do that. Does it work on this car anyway, somewhat.
+1

Given that the EJ series Subaru motors aren't exceptionally stout, a Subaru tuner (such as myself) would immediately disregard any tuning "solution" that didnt over ignition timing control. In fact, I'd say that any actual tuner (of any platform) would feel the same way. It just so happens that the n54/msd80/81 is tolerant of what can only be described as incomplete tuning.
shiv@vishnu is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      06-07-2012, 11:11 AM   #28
BEAR-AvHistory
335is 7DCT/JB4-G5/ISO
 
BEAR-AvHistory's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 335is/JB4-G5/ISO Coupe
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NC - USA

Posts: 1,977
iTrader: (0)

Just follow the money trail, with a JB4 you don't need a tuner to get 400whp.
__________________
Kevin

2014 435M-Sport - 2013 135is Cab JB4/ISO 6MT - 2009 V-Star - 2009 Ford Expedition EL 4X4 - 2003 Xterra 4X4 - 1998 Ranger 4X4 - FFR Cobra MK-IV work in progress
BEAR-AvHistory is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      06-07-2012, 11:21 AM   #29
E3r2E9r
Banned
 
Drives: 3 Series
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: NE

Posts: 421
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krells View Post
To be fair, most tuners creating custom flash maps refer to both piggybacks as junk.
That's fine, but they don't actually work the same.
As mentioned by Shiv from Vishnu, if you were to rely on the knock sensors to control ignition you would have a yard sale of parts as the subaru motors are not tolerant of knock abuse and their electronics can't reduce ignition timing like the BMW DME. The BMW DME and it's knock detection is far superior to other platforms, so one can get away with simply raising boost and adding fuel, to a certain extent. Try that on other platforms and you will be rebuilding motors on a daily basis.

Last edited by E3r2E9r; 06-07-2012 at 11:30 AM.
E3r2E9r is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      06-07-2012, 11:28 AM   #30
benzy89
Banned
 
Drives: '08 E90 335i
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Northern NJ

Posts: 2,396
iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2008 BMW 335i  [3.75]
Quote:
Originally Posted by hemi to e90 View Post
this shit does piss me off and i blame cobb. i had a similar situation with a tuner in ct, he told me that a meth, tune, intake, fmic, and downpipe car wont make 400whp on a rwd 335i without a "custom tune", that hed provide.

that tune would cost me $895 for the cobb + $1000 for him. he'd also need the car for 3 days and that i should expect 200-400 miles on it to be put on.

sorry, but cobb opened up a bag of potential abuse my these asshats.
Yeaaa, fuck that noise. I know that Akuma in S. Jersey does COBB ATP tuning, but it's like $500 for a couple custom maps/dyno pulls/the tuners time. Think if you do additional maps (race map, meth map, etc) its only another $100 per?? Makes shit sense why he'd need the car for more than a few hours & why he'd be putting over 50 miles on the car.

Before I get an earful about how the plug-in systems do this w/o forcing you to spend an additional $xxx, I know.
benzy89 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      06-07-2012, 11:58 AM   #31
Krells
Private First Class
 
Drives: 07 335i
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Atlanta

Posts: 194
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by E3r2E9r View Post
That's fine, but they don't actually work the same.
As mentioned by Shiv from Vishnu, if you were to rely on the knock sensors to control ignition you would have a yard sale of parts as the subaru motors are not tolerant of knock abuse and their electronics can't reduce ignition timing like the BMW DME. The BMW DME and it's knock detection is far superior to other platforms, so one can get away with simply raising boost and adding fuel, to a certain extent. Try that on other platforms and you will be rebuilding motors on a daily basis.
I never said they work the same. I am saying that I have never seen a tuner in the business of creating custom tunes suggest that any piggyback was the way to go. All things equal and tuner wars aside being a vendor for a piggyback is not as profitable as creating maps at $200/hr.
Krells is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      06-07-2012, 12:04 PM   #32
themyst
Major General
 
themyst's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 335i LCI
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: NYC

Posts: 6,598
iTrader: (8)

Send a message via AIM to themyst
Quote:
Originally Posted by E3r2E9r View Post
That's fine, but they don't actually work the same.
As mentioned by Shiv from Vishnu, if you were to rely on the knock sensors to control ignition you would have a yard sale of parts as the subaru motors are not tolerant of knock abuse and their electronics can't reduce ignition timing like the BMW DME. The BMW DME and it's knock detection is far superior to other platforms, so one can get away with simply raising boost and adding fuel, to a certain extent. Try that on other platforms and you will be rebuilding motors on a daily basis.
FWIW, the JB4 does CPS. I would also never run the thing without some form of reducing timing but since it is addressed, no such problems.
__________________
E90 LCI N54 6AT
themyst is offline   South Korea
0
Reply With Quote
      06-07-2012, 12:29 PM   #33
Mike@N54Tuning.com
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Drives: 07335i
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Earth

Posts: 13,900
iTrader: (83)

Quote:
Originally Posted by themyst View Post
FWIW, the JB4 does CPS. I would also never run the thing without some form of reducing timing but since it is addressed, no such problems.
+1. Plus I would not lump the JB3 in to the same category as the JB4. The JB3 was fine in its day but the two tunes have very little in common. Anyway as has been stated before many thousands of JB4s are in use and they are well loved by their owners.

Mike
__________________
BEST PRICES GUARANTEED - New N54 Performance Line Downpipes!!
JB4 **G5** On Sale - FREE Shipping Click Me - NEW JB4(N55) & DCI's $95.00
NEW F30 N20/N55 ER Downpipes and Chargepipes - BMS OCC (On Sale)
Mike@N54Tuning.com is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      06-07-2012, 12:53 PM   #34
Alessandro
Captain
 
Alessandro's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 335i 08 ret, 335is 11
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Canada

Posts: 992
iTrader: (7)

Garage List
2011 335is  [4.75]
Send a message via Skype™ to Alessandro
i am with JB since day one very happy no issues.
Alessandro is offline   Serbia
0
Reply With Quote
      06-07-2012, 01:39 PM   #35
E3r2E9r
Banned
 
Drives: 3 Series
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: NE

Posts: 421
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by themyst View Post
FWIW, the JB4 does CPS. I would also never run the thing without some form of reducing timing but since it is addressed, no such problems.
Correct me if I'm wrong but that is a separate unit that needs to be purchased? What percentage of people actually use it? I never here much talk about it. How does one know how much ignition to reduce? CPS module is great but someone would still need to tune it and I doubt many go through the motions to accurately dial it in. I've done some research but I dont hear many people tweaking their CPS modules, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm willing to listen.
E3r2E9r is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      06-07-2012, 01:55 PM   #36
saxon
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: 07 335i
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: pa

Posts: 323
iTrader: (2)

Personally i think jb4 and procede work but they dont fit my needs, i want a system that will allow me to add timing, take away timing and have full control of the system (including fuel pressure etc) thats why you will see cobb start exploding in sales as soon as end user tuning is available
saxon is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      06-07-2012, 01:59 PM   #37
tofu-
Banned
 
Drives: 335i Jet Black/Coral Red
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: nyc

Posts: 2,858
iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by saxon View Post
Personally i think jb4 and procede work but they dont fit my needs, i want a system that will allow me to add timing, take away timing and have full control of the system (including fuel pressure etc) thats why you will see cobb start exploding in sales as soon as end user tuning is available
just curious, but why?

planning on going with your own custom single turbo or twin upgrade?
tofu- is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      06-07-2012, 02:01 PM   #38
Mike@N54Tuning.com
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Drives: 07335i
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Earth

Posts: 13,900
iTrader: (83)

Quote:
Originally Posted by E3r2E9r View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong but that is a separate unit that needs to be purchased? What percentage of people actually use it? I never here much talk about it. How does one know how much ignition to reduce? CPS module is great but someone would still need to tune it and I doubt many go through the motions to accurately dial it in. I've done some research but I dont hear many people tweaking their CPS modules, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm willing to listen.
It's an add on for the G4 and native on the G5. There is a default curve programmed mapped on boost, RPM, IAT, and gear. To throw out data points at say 15psi 5500rpm its around 3.5 degrees in 3rd, 4degrees in 4th, and 4.75 degrees in 5th. Normally users just run the default mapping with it but it's also user adjustable.

BMS has always been clear that the benefits with CPS are minimal on pump gas and nonexistent with meth but many come from other platforms like Subus where it's absolutely necessary. The concept of a truly superb adaptive ignition system and what BMW has done with it are foreign to them. So it's easier to just let those customers run the CPS module so they can feel warm and fuzzy. Normally it's only suggested for those with large turbos or nitrous, those running exceptionally poor fuel quality, or those who want to run a boost profile that dramatically differs in shape from the OEM profile.

Mike
__________________
BEST PRICES GUARANTEED - New N54 Performance Line Downpipes!!
JB4 **G5** On Sale - FREE Shipping Click Me - NEW JB4(N55) & DCI's $95.00
NEW F30 N20/N55 ER Downpipes and Chargepipes - BMS OCC (On Sale)
Mike@N54Tuning.com is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      06-07-2012, 02:03 PM   #39
shiv@vishnu
 
shiv@vishnu's Avatar
 
Drives: PROcede v5
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SF Bay, CA

Posts: 17,609
iTrader: (0)

Sorry but a whole lot of nonsense here.
shiv@vishnu is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      06-07-2012, 02:17 PM   #40
psmitty95
Brigadier General
 
psmitty95's Avatar
 
Drives: 2009 E90 335i xDrive
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Greenwich, CT

Posts: 3,427
iTrader: (7)

I have the JB4 and love it. The way it changes how the car drives is awesome and i also drive my car every day so driveability is not an issue.

In regards to the hard first to second shift, all 6mt 335's do that until you delete the clutch delay valve. Search CDV, CDV delete, CDV mod, or clutch delay valve and you'll understand what i'm talking about.
__________________
< Click picture for photoshoot
E90 335i xDrive 6spd, Nav, Prem, Cold Weather, & Sports package - Msport Conversion
Mods: FBO + Meth JB4 ISO, BB flash, VRSF DP/FMIC, ER CP, Stett, SteveAZ LPFP & more
More Pictures: Build Thread /// Shop I use: Aci Dynamix 408AWHP/ 483AWTQ Uncorrected Mustang Dyno
psmitty95 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      06-07-2012, 02:26 PM   #41
scott_uw
Teatime
 
scott_uw's Avatar
 
Drives: Toronto
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: FBO Civic 3L TT edition

Posts: 170
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Sorry but a whole lot of nonsense here.
Make a claim and use verifiable proof to support your argument without relying on hearsay, sweeping generalizations and proof by verbosity.

If A is true in B, it does not mean that A is true in C.

I'm sure most of us would appreciate a well thought out argument by yourself proving why ignition control is a necessary function for a tune to possess for the vast majority of people.
__________________
Current 2008 E90 335i world record holder for dead car.
scott_uw is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      06-07-2012, 02:33 PM   #42
itsmeek
Lieutenant
 
itsmeek's Avatar
 
Drives: 2009 E90 335xi
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: DC Metro

Posts: 410
iTrader: (3)

Funny how tuners knock the JB but when they tune "correctly", they either don't make numbers that are as high, or make much lower numbers "mod for mod". I can't think of any blown or damaged engine threads from JB since I joined this site.
__________________
1997 Supra TT (900ish hp)
2010 Range Rover Sport
1965 Mustang 302 5 speed!
2010 Prius
itsmeek is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      06-07-2012, 02:36 PM   #43
E3r2E9r
Banned
 
Drives: 3 Series
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: NE

Posts: 421
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
It's an add on for the G4 and native on the G5. There is a default curve programmed mapped on boost, RPM, IAT, and gear. To throw out data points at say 15psi 5500rpm its around 3.5 degrees in 3rd, 4degrees in 4th, and 4.75 degrees in 5th. Normally users just run the default mapping with it but it's also user adjustable.

BMS has always been clear that the benefits with CPS are minimal on pump gas and nonexistent with meth but many come from other platforms like Subus where it's absolutely necessary. The concept of a truly superb adaptive ignition system and what BMW has done with it are foreign to them. So it's easier to just let those customers run the CPS module so they can feel warm and fuzzy. Normally it's only suggested for those with large turbos or nitrous, those running exceptionally poor fuel quality, or those who want to run a boost profile that dramatically differs in shape from the OEM profile.

Mike
This G5 sounds like a good route to go. As much as it may make people feel warm and fuzzy there are other benefits; It should improve all around drivability and consistency. Is this G5 still in beta? I dont see it available on burgertuning.com ?

I think the BMS tuning line up would greatly benefit from this tuned ignition not just from a mechanical standpoint but from marketing and tuning stand point. People want to know all the bases are covered in a tune, I think they are long over due but glad to see there is improvements being made. The CPS add on is great but I would venture to say the majority wouldnt understand or see the benefit, however, if they knew correct tuning theory and practices they would think twice about it.

You will have to excuse my stretches for excellent tuning but you have to understand I come from a background where I understand engine tuning and therefore seek the best and ideal way. Thanks for clearing that up.
E3r2E9r is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      06-07-2012, 02:40 PM   #44
Jeff@TopGearSolutions
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Jeff@TopGearSolutions's Avatar
 
Drives: C6 Z06, GSXR-750, 09 335i
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: TopGearSolutions.com

Posts: 15,548
iTrader: (30)

Send a message via AIM to Jeff@TopGearSolutions
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsmeek View Post
Funny how tuners knock the JB but when they tune "correctly", they either don't make numbers that are as high, or make much lower numbers "mod for mod". I can't think of any blown or damaged engine threads from JB since I joined this site.
You have to understand that tuning a vehicle without relying on the knock sensor (which 99% of other platforms NEED to do) will require a conservative approach, especially on something like a Subaru/mitsubishi/mazda/honda.

For instance, when I tuned my last car myself, I didn't have a sophisticated DME to back me up, if my car knocked, it did not reduce ignition. So if I asked for 20 degrees ignition up top, it gave it to me.

A conservative approach might not make exactly the same power, but you will know day in and day out it will be consistent and through different weather changes and even elevations should be acceptable/safe/reliable.

One could easily tune to be on the verge of knock but with a ECU that doesnt adapt like this BMW platform if the conditions arent the same as the day you tuned, you will be calling a tow truck to go home.
Jeff@TopGearSolutions is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:24 PM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST