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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Tuner Says jb3/4 is horrid?!?!



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      06-07-2012, 02:42 PM   #45
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Okay, I dont know what the subbie tuner is talking about, but i think he just wants to tune ur BMW and make some cash. I 100% agree that piggyback tuner is not the best tuner but it works great while your trying to get everything dialed in. I take my time with my cars and build them up slowly getting what is best for the car. So I wont be ready for a tuner to start dialing in my car until it is almost done, needless to say it will never actually be done, and if it is its time for a new one. But while you are gathering all of your mods and butting the beast together I recomend the JB4 tune, because it is a night and day difference. It performs amazingly for what it is, a piggy back. But I agree with the subbie tuner, its not a professional tune done by a person that tunes cars all day everyday.
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      06-07-2012, 02:51 PM   #46
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FWIW, piggybacks are the king of boost control over flash. However when it comes to real timing adjustments and real fuel control, VANOs tuning, etc, flash can't be beat. With that said the BMW PID logic is a nightmare heh. In a perfect world I would only use a piggyback for boost control and doohickey gauges/meth safety and a flash for everything else.

The JB4 G5 leaves me satisfied though. And this comes from someone who's tried them all.
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      06-07-2012, 03:06 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff@topgearsolutions View Post
You have to understand that tuning a vehicle without relying on the knock sensor (which 99% of other platforms NEED to do) will require a conservative approach, especially on something like a Subaru/mitsubishi/mazda/honda.

For instance, when I tuned my last car myself, I didn't have a sophisticated DME to back me up, if my car knocked, it did not reduce ignition. So if I asked for 20 degrees ignition up top, it gave it to me.

A conservative approach might not make exactly the same power, but you will know day in and day out it will be consistent and through different weather changes and even elevations should be acceptable/safe/reliable.

One could easily tune to be on the verge of knock but with a ECU that doesnt adapt like this BMW platform if the conditions arent the same as the day you tuned, you will be calling a tow truck to go home.
Thanks sir, I understand tuning as well (been tuning since my first 1989 talon). As I mentioned previously and to quote you, the key here is "ECU that doesnt adapt like this BMW platform".

We are talking about the BMW platform, right? The ECU adapts, it works very well and the tuner (BMS) has taken this into account. Not sure how it's relevant to the BMW and why they are being trashed because they used a more efficient approach to tuning.

They worked with the platform they were given. I haven't heard any nightmares about their approach, their prices are lower and their numbers are consistently higher than the other tuners. Not sure at this point what the advantage is to buying any other system if your car is lightly modded.
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      06-07-2012, 03:08 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsmeek View Post
Thanks sir, I understand tuning as well (been tuning since my first 1989 talon). As I mentioned previously and to quote you, the key here is "ECU that doesnt adapt like this BMW platform".

We are talking about the BMW platform, right? The ECU adapts, it works very well and the tuner (BMS) has taken this into account. Not sure how it's relevant to the BMW and why they are being trashed because they used a more efficient approach to tuning.

They worked with the platform they were given.
It "works" at the cost of consistency. I think most people would rather have a car that traps 120 mph all the time versus a car that does 122 one run, 117 another run and 115 the run after that.
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      06-07-2012, 03:11 PM   #49
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Itsmeek or Mike@n54tuning: Please explain how you believe the dme to "adapt" to knock.
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      06-07-2012, 03:11 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themyst View Post
It "works" at the cost of consistency. I think most people would rather have a car that traps 120 mph all the time versus a car that does 122 one run, 117 another run and 115 the run after that.
It "adjusts" (for lack of a better/more technical term) to the conditions (based on knock). I agree on the consistency, but again- you are paying $500ish vs $1600ish or $2kish for something that really isn't that different. How many of us go to a track anyway? If I go, it's not for 1/4 miles.
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      06-07-2012, 03:12 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themyst View Post
It "works" at the cost of consistency. I think most people would rather have a car that traps 120 mph all the time versus a car that does 122 one run, 117 another run and 115 the run after that.
you mean like people who like being dyno queens but have a car that runs like shit?

im from the audi world, so yes, there are people who would rather be faster than consistent.
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      06-07-2012, 03:13 PM   #52
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Its def a lot more fun to be fast, inconsistent & break shit occassionally.... Not like it's expensive to fix a BMW
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      06-07-2012, 03:15 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsmeek View Post
Thanks sir, I understand tuning as well (been tuning since my first 1989 talon). As I mentioned previously and to quote you, the key here is "ECU that doesnt adapt like this BMW platform".

We are talking about the BMW platform, right? The ECU adapts, it works very well and the tuner (BMS) has taken this into account. Not sure how it's relevant to the BMW and why they are being trashed because they used a more efficient approach to tuning.

They worked with the platform they were given. I haven't heard any nightmares about their approach, their prices are lower and their numbers are consistently higher than the other tuners. Not sure at this point what the advantage is to buying any other system if your car is lightly modded.
That is definitely a great opinion to have but can you supply something more concrete then your opinion?

Specifically in regards to following:
-Adapting being the ideal method of tuning?
-Consistently higher numbers?

I think there seems to be some confusion on how "adaption" really works and what is going on in the background. You do realize the stock DME will detect knock, then reduce ignition 3 degrees, if no knock occurs it will be steadily increasing ignition until it knocks again, to reduce 3 degrees. Not sure how that is consistent....


Quote:
Originally Posted by themyst View Post
It "works" at the cost of consistency. I think most people would rather have a car that traps 120 mph all the time versus a car that does 122 one run, 117 another run and 115 the run after that.
Exactly.
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      06-07-2012, 03:18 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Itsmeek or Mike@n54tuning: Please explain how you believe the dme to "adapt" to knock.
I don't know why you're inciting a war when the JB4 offers CPS. This is all a moot point now.
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      06-07-2012, 03:19 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themyst View Post
I don't know why you're inciting a war when the JB4 offers CPS. This is all a moot point now.
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      06-07-2012, 03:21 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsmeek View Post
Thanks sir, I understand tuning as well (been tuning since my first 1989 talon). As I mentioned previously and to quote you, the key here is "ECU that doesnt adapt like this BMW platform".

We are talking about the BMW platform, right? The ECU adapts, it works very well and the tuner (BMS) has taken this into account. Not sure how it's relevant to the BMW and why they are being trashed because they used a more efficient approach to tuning.

They worked with the platform they were given. I haven't heard any nightmares about their approach, their prices are lower and their numbers are consistently higher than the other tuners. Not sure at this point what the advantage is to buying any other system if your car is lightly modded.
The word adapt is thrown around loosely, can you explain what adapt means to you cause from the rest of your post here I dont think you have a clear understanding. A few people have touched on this. The consistency part definitely made me chuckle. From what Mike says the G5 board should fix the inconsistency with the CPS offset, or the use of CPS module offset but I doubt anyone can say out of the box ignition going back and forth from knock detection is consistent.
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      06-07-2012, 03:25 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E3r2E9r View Post
The word adapt is thrown around loosely, can you explain what adapt means to you cause from the rest of your post here I dont think you have a clear understanding. A few people have touched on this. The consistency part definitely made me chuckle. From what Mike says the G5 board should fix the inconsistency with the CPS offset, or the use of CPS offset but I doubt anyone can say out of the box ignition going back and forth from knock detection is consistent.
On meth, I don't see it being a big deal. Shiv seems to believe advancing over the stock curve on meth is kosher and no ones blown up so I guess it's safe.

CPS comes into play on pump gas for sure re: consistency.
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      06-07-2012, 03:26 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themyst View Post
I don't know why you're inciting a war when the JB4 offers CPS. This is all a moot point now.
If a user or a vendor makes a technically misleading statement, it's understandable to ask them for clarification. This is not to incite anything other than an exchange of information.

Also, I've witness first hand the effects of the original CPS box. As have others on this forum. I hope BMS has brushed up on their engine tuning theory since then.
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      06-07-2012, 03:33 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themyst View Post
On meth, I don't see it being a big deal. Shiv seems to believe advancing over the stock curve on meth is kosher and no ones blown up so I guess it's safe.

CPS comes into play on pump gas for sure re: consistency.
Methanol is a different beast and allows for quite a lot more ignition timing. Advancing ignition over the stock curve on meth is certainly do-able. I'm sure Shiv has already found their to be a power gain. As with any tuning or platform you want to tune to MBT (maximum brake torque). When you find MBT you either stop making power adding ignition or knock. I guess in the case of methanol most find there is no more power from ignition to a certain point.

It is always safe to add ignition so as long as your not on the verge of knock and or making more power. Adding ignition blindly is a different subject of course.
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      06-07-2012, 03:36 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themyst View Post
On meth, I don't see it being a big deal. Shiv seems to believe advancing over the stock curve on meth is kosher and no ones blown up so I guess it's safe.

CPS comes into play on pump gas for sure re: consistency.
I believe having ignition control in both directions (advance and retard) to be desirable. As would any other tune with more than a topical understaning of engine tuning theory. I believe our results speak for themselves with regards to engine failure. I think itsmeek should investigate engine failure history before making some of the conclusions he made. While development does usually involve stumbles along the way, one should hopefully learn from mistakes instead of trying again and again at the end users behalf.
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      06-07-2012, 03:36 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
If a user or a vendor makes a technically misleading statement, it's understandable to ask them for clarification. This is not to incite anything other than an exchange of information.

Also, I've witness first hand the effects of the original CPS box. As have others on this forum. I hope BMS has brushed up on their engine tuning theory since then.
When it comes to subtracting timing the net result is the same as a procede user tinkering with ignition correction, as far as I can recall, = 1 degree of offset for every 25%.

When you reduce timing and not ride the knock sensor, you lose power but gain consistency. Proactive versus reactive. We all get that.

So can you kindly explain what you experienced first hand with BMS CPS implementation? Works great for me with RBs.
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      06-07-2012, 03:40 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
I believe having ignition control in both directions (advance and retard) to be desirable. As would any other tune with more than a topical understaning of engine tuning theory. I believe our results speak for themselves with regards to engine failure. I think itsmeek should investigate engine failure history before making some of the conclusions he made. While development does usually involve stumbles along the way, one should hopefully learn from mistakes instead of trying again and again at the end users behalf.
Advance IMO is only suitable for those with 335is or 1Ms running a piggyback. Heck, the stock curve in itself is already a touch too aggressive meth or not. Brings us back to the point regarding consistency.

Not for nothing, all this CPS offset or advance is nonsense if the car flatlines on its face after a shift.... Can't beat ignition safer than -1.88 degrees post shift.
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      06-07-2012, 03:41 PM   #63
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BMS keeps misusing adaptive... you mean reactive right?
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      06-07-2012, 03:41 PM   #64
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I love how shiv touts how his piggyback is so much better than the jb4 yet not a week goes by it seems without someone posting a proceed log asking how there car is running while there fuel trims are maxed out, running 17lbs of boost, with an afr of 16-17:1. But hey, it has superior ignition control, so its the better toon.
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      06-07-2012, 03:43 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 805beemer View Post
I love how shiv touts how his piggyback is so much better than the jb4 yet not a week goes by it seems without someone posting a proceed log asking how there car is running while there fuel trims are maxed out, running 17lbs of boost, with an afr of 16-17:1. But hey, it has superior ignition control, so its the better toon.
that's what you get with a tunable interface... imagine the threads when ATR is released.
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      06-07-2012, 03:44 PM   #66
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So hard to have a factual conversation on this platform without people just coming in to piss on the fire.... Cmon guys. It's like nobody wants to learn or listen. Let's just keep bickering or stick to facts. Lets not assume. Let's not suggest. Let's not poke fun.
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