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      06-07-2012, 03:50 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by themyst View Post
Advance IMO is only suitable for those with 335is or 1Ms running a piggyback. Heck, the stock curve in itself is already a touch too aggressive meth or not. Brings us back to the point regarding consistency.

Not for nothing, all this CPS offset or advance is nonsense if the car flatlines on its face after a shift.... Can't beat ignition safer than -1.88 degrees post shift.
Advance is suitable for any platform so as long as power is found and your not knocking.
Not sure I understand your last remark, inside joke?
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      06-07-2012, 03:51 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by E3r2E9r View Post
Methanol is a different beast and allows for quite a lot more ignition timing. Advancing ignition over the stock curve on meth is certainly do-able. I'm sure Shiv has already found their to be a power gain. As with any tuning or platform you want to tune to MBT (maximum brake torque). When you find MBT you either stop making power adding ignition or knock. I guess in the case of methanol most find there is no more power from ignition to a certain point.

It is always safe to add ignition so as long as your not on the verge of knock and or making more power. Adding ignition blindly is a different subject of course.
It's doable but are there gains in the real world? I'll take the 5 whp Dynojet hit and put less stress on the motor for the sake of ( key word) consistency.
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      06-07-2012, 03:55 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by E3r2E9r View Post
Advance is suitable for any platform so as long as power is found and your not knocking.
Not sure I understand your last remark, inside joke?
I was referring in context to the N54.

And no inside joke. 6AT cars have negative ignition in multiple cylinders after an upshift seemingly at random. Even Cobb did it between 6000-6500 RPM RB turbos or stock. So far no flatline on the JB4 G5 for me.
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      06-07-2012, 04:29 PM   #70
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It's doable but are there gains in the real world? I'll take the 5 whp Dynojet hit and put less stress on the motor for the sake of ( key word) consistency.
I'll take making 5whp through more advance while running meth/race gas than running struggling undersized turbos even harder. Extra advance (when supported by octane) is essentially free power. It improves fuel consumption and lowers exhaust gas temp/cooling system work. And it also feels quite good.

Shiv
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      06-07-2012, 04:45 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
I'll take making 5whp through more advance while running meth/race gas than running struggling undersized turbos even harder. Extra advance (when supported by octane) is essentially free power. It improves fuel consumption and lowers exhaust gas temp/cooling system work. And it also feels quite good.

Shiv
At the expense of rising cylinder temps and inconsistent performance and reducing the safety margin on questionable meth mixtures.

I digress, the block can handle it though. My question is have you dynoed your ignition advance on a mustang? Before and after. That will stress test the car more so than a dynojet. There is a reason cobb runs 11 degrees at redline meth or not.
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      06-07-2012, 04:46 PM   #72
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No idea why he said it was horid, I'll ask him today. He's one of the biggest Subaru tuners around my city and he also tunes many bmw's. He Actually has a e9x m3 that's beautiful and makes over 400whp. Please no names if you know who I'm talking about, no need to start shit. I'm most likely going with the jb4, it seems amazing. As for the coilovers my questions are why do all the kits say they only lower your car up to 2" my car will still be a monster truck if I can only lower it 2" I'm thinking of going with H&R, ST OR KWv1. I really don't want to spend over 1400$ my other concern is slamming the car and having problems because it's AWD. Have any people run into problems with this. My srt and sti where slammed on BC coils with no probs. I understand BMW is a very different beast though.
Oh, there it is... there's the problem right there. He's just pissed that his M3 get's walked by JB4 cars with thousands less in mods.

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      06-07-2012, 05:00 PM   #73
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At the expense of rising cylinder temps and inconsistent performance and reducing the safety margin on questionable meth mixtures.
I'm not sure where you are getting this info from. If you are running methanol or e85, cylinder temp isn't close to being an issue. And if you are running a proper methanol system, there is no question meth mixture to deal with. It's only when knock occurs that you will see a sudden rise in cylinder temp. Increasing advance to the point of MBT does only good things if there is sufficient octane. The word "inconsistent" doesn't come up when running a properly tuned engine in a non octane limited environment (i.e., when running meth or e85).

Also worth mentioning that running advance (more timing that stock) is worth 10-15whp when running a 50/50 E85 blend.

Quote:
I digress, the block can handle it though. My question is have you dynoed your ignition advance on a mustang? Before and after. That will stress test the car more so than a dynojet. There is a reason cobb runs 11 degrees at redline meth or not.
There is no "my ignition advance". it is not unique to me. It's simply one direction of ignition advance adjustability. One ingredient to use if the recipe calls for it. Not having this ingredient at hand means that there are some recipes than you cannot make as well as if it were available to you.

Also, a mustang dyno does not necessarily induce more load or stress than a dynojet. Everything depends on the ramp up rate/run duration. I can't speak for what others do. But I know what they don't do: and that is offer an engine control system that reliably supports 600+whp on a stock n54 block in customer cars. On a serious note, I don't look at what others do or don't do to determine what is "correct." Instead, I test things myself in every condition I have access to. And i don't pussyfoot the accelerator either. Running additional spark advance when called for isn't unique. The key is to design a control system that calls for it when, and only when, it is welcome.

Shiv
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      06-07-2012, 05:58 PM   #74
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I'd trust a tuner with thousand of applications over a tuner with very limited exposure to this platform.
This sums it up
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      06-07-2012, 06:53 PM   #75
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It's an add on for the G4 and native on the G5. There is a default curve programmed mapped on boost, RPM, IAT, and gear. To throw out data points at say 15psi 5500rpm its around 3.5 degrees in 3rd, 4degrees in 4th, and 4.75 degrees in 5th. Normally users just run the default mapping with it but it's also user adjustable.

BMS has always been clear that the benefits with CPS are minimal on pump gas and nonexistent with meth but many come from other platforms like Subus where it's absolutely necessary. The concept of a truly superb adaptive ignition system and what BMW has done with it are foreign to them. So it's easier to just let those customers run the CPS module so they can feel warm and fuzzy. Normally it's only suggested for those with large turbos or nitrous, those running exceptionally poor fuel quality, or those who want to run a boost profile that dramatically differs in shape from the OEM profile.

Mike
I am so confused. The stock DME has an adaptive ignition system? I'm pretty sure it reacts to riding the knock sensor by dropping timing.You have never provided any empirical evidence to prove that that this "superior" tuning methodology is not causing damage to the engine. "We haven't blown a car up" is not evidence. Also, why is the CPS module standard on the G5 when you have stated clearly several times that its not needed? This thread provides interesting reading: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=461365
If you simply said, "sorry, we messed up, we're going to provide all current owners of JB4's with free CPS modules", then I would have a lot more respect for you. However, defending your lack of knowledge when it comes to proper tuning principles by suggesting that a concept is "foreign" to tuners like Cobb and Vishnu who have a lot more experience than you is not funny, it's distressing.




Quote:
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+1. Plus I would not lump the JB3 in to the same category as the JB4. The JB3 was fine in its day but the two tunes have very little in common. Anyway as has been stated before many thousands of JB4s are in use and they are well loved by their owners.

Mike
How many times are you going to bang on about how many thousands of owners run the JB4? It's the cheapest tune for goodness sakes! Most people don't take the time to properly research the features of a tune, they simply look at peak horsepower numbers and price. However, as we all know that is a tiny part of the puzzle. Also, you happen to be selling rebranded JB3's to unsuspecting owners of brand new N20's. "Back in the day" is today, Sir.
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      06-07-2012, 07:24 PM   #76
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why is it that the insecure vishnu fanbois always hate on this forum ?
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      06-07-2012, 07:29 PM   #77
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The JB4 G5 leaves me satisfied though. And this comes from someone who's tried them all.
Themyst, you were questioning the impartiality of FBIS' reviews a few weeks ago because he gets vendor discounts. I think the same question deserves to be applied to you. You've been running a JB4 G5 before it has has been publicly released for sale, does that mean that perhaps you got yours for free or deeply discounted in exchange for touting its virtues?

EDIT: Especially coming from someone who didn't have a single nice thing to say about the JB4 (or the people selling it) a couple of years ago...that would make a very smart PR move. Thread linked in my earlier post.
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      06-07-2012, 07:40 PM   #78
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Hey Jacob the jeweler, don't you have a car to wreck or something?
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      06-07-2012, 08:15 PM   #79
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why is it that the insecure vishnu fanbois always hate on this forum ?
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Hey Jacob the jeweler, don't you have a car to wreck or something?
If you have anything constructive to say regarding the points I've made, go ahead. I'm not easily intimidated by vapid remarks.
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      06-07-2012, 08:25 PM   #80
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If you have anything constructive to say regarding the points I've made, go ahead. I'm not easily intimidated by vapid remarks.
if i did it would be the only constructive comment in this thread, since you fanbois arrived
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      06-07-2012, 08:26 PM   #81
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I got nothing to add lol, I just can't stop LOL'ing after the stupidity you displayed on beemerpost. I seriously haven't laughed that hard in years.
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      06-07-2012, 08:29 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
I'm not sure where you are getting this info from. If you are running methanol or e85, cylinder temp isn't close to being an issue. And if you are running a proper methanol system, there is no question meth mixture to deal with. It's only when knock occurs that you will see a sudden rise in cylinder temp. Increasing advance to the point of MBT does only good things if there is sufficient octane. The word "inconsistent" doesn't come up when running a properly tuned engine in a non octane limited environment (i.e., when running meth or e85).

Tell that to your customers, not me. And PS: there is a reason why I asked if you dynoed on a load-bearing dyno e.g. Mustang. Even on meth, you will see that MBT is significantly lower than what you may encounter on a Dynojet.

Also worth mentioning that running advance (more timing that stock) is worth 10-15whp when running a 50/50 E85 blend.

On a Dynojet.

There is no "my ignition advance". it is not unique to me. It's simply one direction of ignition advance adjustability. One ingredient to use if the recipe calls for it. Not having this ingredient at hand means that there are some recipes than you cannot make as well as if it were available to you.

Sorry for the poor use of words. I should have said "more aggressive than the stock curve". I'm not interested in this recipe but thanks for offering.

Also, a mustang dyno does not necessarily induce more load or stress than a dynojet. Everything depends on the ramp up rate/run duration. I can't speak for what others do. But I know what they don't do: and that is offer an engine control system that reliably supports 600+whp on a stock n54 block in customer cars. On a serious note, I don't look at what others do or don't do to determine what is "correct." Instead, I test things myself in every condition I have access to. And i don't pussyfoot the accelerator either. Running additional spark advance when called for isn't unique. The key is to design a control system that calls for it when, and only when, it is welcome.

So you're saying a Mustang isn't a load-bearing dyno? Dynojets are inertia-based dynos that do not put the car under true stress. For those who do single gear pulls once a week, which is 99% of the tuned userbase, I don't see any harm. For those who go on airstrip runs well past the governor need to ensure the car is happy in those higher gears.

Shiv
bolded.
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      06-07-2012, 08:38 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laguna Seca Blue View Post
Themyst, you were questioning the impartiality of FBIS' reviews a few weeks ago because he gets vendor discounts. I think the same question deserves to be applied to you. You've been running a JB4 G5 before it has has been publicly released for sale, does that mean that perhaps you got yours for free or deeply discounted in exchange for touting its virtues?

EDIT: Especially coming from someone who didn't have a single nice thing to say about the JB4 (or the people selling it) a couple of years ago...that would make a very smart PR move. Thread linked in my earlier post.
Hi Ashwin, since you are so curious as to my tune history, here it goes.

I ran a JB3 1.2F beta back in 2008 when I first got the car. Was ok on pump gas but started causing all sorts of bogging and boost targeting problems on meth so I switched to the Procede V4. Ran well on my manual 135i, no issues.

Traded in for an auto 335i, the Procede V4/V5 was a nightmare. First, it misfired and confirmed tune related. Then it flatlined like no tomorrow. Shiv blamed meth kit. Tried out the JB4. Still flatlined but not as bad; hated the WGDC cap. Went Cobb, can control when I flatline or not so it was better than the other options.

Upgraded to RB turbos, no ATR so couldn't dial in WGDC properly for my tighter-than-normal wastegates. Got a JB4 G5 from Terry (box only as I still had my old JB4 harness) modified the harness, plugged it in, worked perfectly, no flatline. All the issues I had with the JB3/4 back in 2010 were addressed with the G5 box. Tunes change and improve, as I'm sure the Procede has.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it is my motto. Heck, I don't even datalog my car anymore because it just works well (much to Terry's chagrin).

I hope that helped you understand how long I've been around, Ashwin.
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      06-07-2012, 09:02 PM   #84
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Thanks Themyst, I realize you've been around for a while and you certainly bring a lot to the table. I've learnt a lot from reading your posts. However, if you question someone's integrity, I believe the same scrutiny should be applied to you. Your response above does not address my point. However, I want to reiterate that I am grateful for the knowledge you impart on this forum.

Anyway, I don't want I start an argument for arguments sake. For that reason, I'm just going to ignore the other two poster's incomprehensible comments...
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      06-07-2012, 09:10 PM   #85
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Sorry, one more thing. I'm not sure what kind of point you're trying to prove by addressing me by name. That information was disclosed illegally by the moderator of another site. If I were you, I wouldn't want to be associated with that.
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      06-07-2012, 09:11 PM   #86
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My name is Ben. Who cares? Shiv addresses me by first and last name sometimes!
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      06-07-2012, 09:17 PM   #87
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My name is Ben. Who cares? Shiv addresses me by first and last name sometimes!
I don't care. Otherwise I would have pressed charges against BB. Anyway, nice to e-meet you, Ben.
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      06-08-2012, 12:55 PM   #88
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Never owned a BMS product like the JB3/4. But if there was anything 'sh!tbox' worthy to be said it would have been noted by Shiv/Vishnu tuning as they are the direct competitor. And even Shiv would acknowledge that the JB3/4 is far from a shitbox. He would mention it has deficiencies but I seriously doubt he would classify it as a sh!tbox. That subaru guy is scared of it.
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