E90Post
 


ECS BMW
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Upgraded n54 Twins



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      06-15-2012, 10:24 AM   #1
sdstatestud88
First Lieutenant
United_States
12
Rep
338
Posts

 
Drives: 2008 AW E92
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Hotlanta

iTrader: (1)

Exclamation Upgraded n54 Twins

From another thread...This is about TWINS...not any SINGLE talk...There are threads for that

GT28RS (i.e. disco potato) or GT2871R? What do you guys think? Let's discuss some options...

Here's the current idea to get this done quick and on a budget (not me doing it by the way, someone else):

1) Twin Log style manifolds (much easier and cost effective than tubular and will work very well for up to 800hp)
2) Twin GT28RS or Twin GT2871R (both are dual ball bearing)??
3) Preserve water/oil lines. Oil lines will have restrictors built in as ball bearing are rated up to 40psi oil pressure, N54 runs twice that under any load
4) T25??
5) Which ar would work best? .63?
6) Oil drains must remain gravity based
7) O2 sensor bank situation remains just like stock, with the sensors in the downpipes instead of hot manifolds

I'm leaning heavily towards the twin disco potato setup on this car (GT28RS) for a neighbourhood of 600-650whp...Twin GT2871R would be good to 800wheel.

Yes, there are always other options (single turbo single/twin scroll), this thread isn't about that. Nor is it about a pic from cp-E of their work that they never finished. Would love to get some info what you guys think based on displacement of this motor how this particular setup would perform and what the ideal setup in terms of housing, ar would be in your opinion. Also, how do you think it would spool and how early each of them would hit full torque.
__________________
Installed:Cobb AP, AR Kittyless, Vanguard V2, ETS 7'' FMIC, BMS DCI, BMS OCC, Rob Beck PCV 2 Fix, ST V1 Coilovers, BBS LM reps, Hankook V12 Evo...SWS 8, RF P-300 Amp, Technic
Soon:New SNAIL, Wavetrac/Quaife, M3 Bushings
Appreciate 0
      06-15-2012, 10:39 AM   #2
saxon
First Lieutenant
5
Rep
323
Posts

 
Drives: 07 335i
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: pa

iTrader: (2)

honestly if your taking the manifolds off and making new manifolds, it would be cheaper and easier to just make a single (and most likely spool faster, and create as much if not more power)

if they could bolt up to the stock manifolds then it would be a great "cheaper" option but since new manifolds would have to be made I dont think its a viable option
Appreciate 0
      06-15-2012, 10:45 AM   #3
rader1
Banned
34
Rep
2,197
Posts

 
Drives: Cobb Stage 2+ 135i
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Roanoke, VA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by saxon View Post
honestly if your taking the manifolds off and making new manifolds, it would be cheaper and easier to just make a single (and most likely spool faster, and create as much if not more power)

if they could bolt up to the stock manifolds then it would be a great "cheaper" option but since new manifolds would have to be made I dont think its a viable option
I really like the idea of true upgraded twins, assuming there is room in the engine bay. A pair of BW EFR 6262s would be INSANE. Not only that, but it would preserve O2 sensor locations.
Appreciate 0
      06-15-2012, 10:47 AM   #4
Jake@MOTIV
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor
Jake@MOTIV's Avatar
26
Rep
951
Posts


 
Drives: 135i, 335i
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: MD & NC

iTrader: (7)

The best way to decide what setup you want to go with is to figure out how much power you want to make - and be realistic with it. Turbos work best in their efficient "island". Once you determine what you want you can pick what "tools" you will use to achieve that goal.

Another factor is to think about spool. I understand this thread is about twins and not singles but for the most part - upgrading an inline 6 is typically rather efficient with a twin scroll single. Now the reason I bring this up is because the gt28rs and 2871 are great upgrades for the s4 as it is a v6 motor. It is a bit more complicated to run an efficient single on it.

When you think spool - 6 cylinders - high(ish) compression motor - 3.0L will get a decent small A/R t4 or large t3 (twin scroll or standard scroll) spooling in a decent range. With twin 28rs (smaller than the 2871 so it will spool a LITTLE earlier) you have to remember that you will only have 1.5L and 3 cylinders of exhaust gas to spool them up. On my 2.3L 4cylinder I had a 28rs, a 3076, and a 35r throughout the years. The 28rs ispooled in the midle-ish 2k rpms. With almost a liter less and 1 less cylinder I can estimate it will spool a bit later (obviously not too much). I don't follow the s4 v6 motors much so I am not sure where they make full boost at with these setups.

Long story short - figure out your HP goals, figure out approximately where you would like to have full boost by, and choose your turbo. If you want 600whp with a fast spool, a large A/R turbine housing with twin scroll in the t3 flanged family may be a great choice. Going twin t25 flanged turbos is just as much work as going single t3 or t4. You will need two manifolds and two turbos and two downpipes. That can get just as expensive if not more expensive than going single. I am all for either - I will go custom with mine as I have been doing this stuff for years - I just haven't decided exactly what I will use for hardware in a year or so when I have the time and motivation to start the project.
Appreciate 0
      06-15-2012, 10:49 AM   #5
BuraQ
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor
BuraQ's Avatar
United_States
65
Rep
3,224
Posts


 
Drives: 11" E92 335is
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Florida

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2011 BMW 335is  [3.03]
Just to let everyone know, so later its not said that the idea was hijacked, there is goign to be a TWIN TURBO upgrade for the N54 and yes the turbo on the table are prefixed with GT accompanied by a new turbo manifold.

Thats all I can say at this time, but yes, the idea by the OP and the original person, dzenno - that brought it to surface is already being planned and to be executed soon.
__________________
BQ Tuning by WedgePerformance - Torque Junkies
DCT 335is 121-122 mph in the 1/4 mile Stock Turbos / Full Weight
Appreciate 0
      06-15-2012, 10:59 AM   #6
jippii ensio
Major
13
Rep
1,229
Posts

 
Drives: 335i
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: On the road

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdstatestud88 View Post
From another thread...This is about TWINS...not any SINGLE talk...There are threads for that

GT28RS (i.e. disco potato) or GT2871R? What do you guys think? Let's discuss some options...

Here's the current idea to get this done quick and on a budget (not me doing it by the way, someone else):

1) Twin Log style manifolds (much easier and cost effective than tubular and will work very well for up to 800hp)
2) Twin GT28RS or Twin GT2871R (both are dual ball bearing)??
3) Preserve water/oil lines. Oil lines will have restrictors built in as ball bearing are rated up to 40psi oil pressure, N54 runs twice that under any load
4) T25??
5) Which ar would work best? .63?
6) Oil drains must remain gravity based
7) O2 sensor bank situation remains just like stock, with the sensors in the downpipes instead of hot manifolds

I'm leaning heavily towards the twin disco potato setup on this car (GT28RS) for a neighbourhood of 600-650whp...Twin GT2871R would be good to 800wheel.

Yes, there are always other options (single turbo single/twin scroll), this thread isn't about that. Nor is it about a pic from cp-E of their work that they never finished. Would love to get some info what you guys think based on displacement of this motor how this particular setup would perform and what the ideal setup in terms of housing, ar would be in your opinion. Also, how do you think it would spool and how early each of them would hit full torque.
Just out of curiosity, are you the person planning to do this since you copied Dzenno's post word for word?
Appreciate 0
      06-15-2012, 11:03 AM   #7
cstavaru
Brigadier General
cstavaru's Avatar
94
Rep
3,237
Posts

 
Drives: 2009 335i M Sport Sedan 6MT
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Bucharest, Romania

iTrader: (0)

I am a total fan of a twin-turbo upgrade and I really think that a single turbo upgrade takes most of the N54 qualities (but adds power).

If you can find the space to fit the two turbos into the engine bay (and have the money), I would say do it, and go for the smaller AR, in order to keep the engine torque characteristics.

I made a software program with which I can do calculations on theoretical maximum power obtainable from a turbo setup, given the turbine efficiency maps:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=698432

So if you have a target power in mind, you can choose the turbos based on that power. I know that GT28 are the smallest Garrett turbos with ball-bearing shafts but maybe even smaller turbos may be sufficient.

If you are really serious about this, I can run some numbers for your turbo setup (it does take like an hour to input the data though )
Appreciate 0
      06-15-2012, 11:04 AM   #8
jippii ensio
Major
13
Rep
1,229
Posts

 
Drives: 335i
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: On the road

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyLow335i View Post
The best way to decide what setup you want to go with is to figure out how much power you want to make - and be realistic with it. Turbos work best in their efficient "island". Once you determine what you want you can pick what "tools" you will use to achieve that goal.

Another factor is to think about spool. I understand this thread is about twins and not singles but for the most part - upgrading an inline 6 is typically rather efficient with a twin scroll single. Now the reason I bring this up is because the gt28rs and 2871 are great upgrades for the s4 as it is a v6 motor. It is a bit more complicated to run an efficient single on it.

When you think spool - 6 cylinders - high(ish) compression motor - 3.0L will get a decent small A/R t4 or large t3 (twin scroll or standard scroll) spooling in a decent range. With twin 28rs (smaller than the 2871 so it will spool a LITTLE earlier) you have to remember that you will only have 1.5L and 3 cylinders of exhaust gas to spool them up. On my 2.3L 4cylinder I had a 28rs, a 3076, and a 35r throughout the years. The 28rs ispooled in the midle-ish 2k rpms. With almost a liter less and 1 less cylinder I can estimate it will spool a bit later (obviously not too much). I don't follow the s4 v6 motors much so I am not sure where they make full boost at with these setups.

Long story short - figure out your HP goals, figure out approximately where you would like to have full boost by, and choose your turbo. If you want 600whp with a fast spool, a large A/R turbine housing with twin scroll in the t3 flanged family may be a great choice. Going twin t25 flanged turbos is just as much work as going single t3 or t4. You will need two manifolds and two turbos and two downpipes. That can get just as expensive if not more expensive than going single. I am all for either - I will go custom with mine as I have been doing this stuff for years - I just haven't decided exactly what I will use for hardware in a year or so when I have the time and motivation to start the project.
The pulses of 6-cylinder drive twin scroll nively due to the angles in between pulses being quite optimal. For the same exact reason 6-cyl engine drives twins nicely as well.
Appreciate 0
      06-15-2012, 11:05 AM   #9
jippii ensio
Major
13
Rep
1,229
Posts

 
Drives: 335i
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: On the road

iTrader: (0)

OP, just try them both and report back the difference
Appreciate 0
      06-15-2012, 11:09 AM   #10
jippii ensio
Major
13
Rep
1,229
Posts

 
Drives: 335i
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: On the road

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuraQ View Post
Just to let everyone know, so later its not said that the idea was hijacked, there is goign to be a TWIN TURBO upgrade for the N54 and yes the turbo on the table are prefixed with GT accompanied by a new turbo manifold.

Thats all I can say at this time, but yes, the idea by the OP and the original person, dzenno - that brought it to surface is already being planned and to be executed soon.
Why can't you say more?

I've been reading about the plan, and there is a plan to execute it, but we do not really know if the plan will be executed until it has been executed.
Appreciate 0
      06-15-2012, 11:16 AM   #11
sdstatestud88
First Lieutenant
United_States
12
Rep
338
Posts

 
Drives: 2008 AW E92
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Hotlanta

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jippii ensio View Post
Just out of curiosity, are you the person planning to do this since you copied Dzenno's post word for word?

No I just brought it over to this to get additional input from people. I said I was not the one who thought of this
__________________
Installed:Cobb AP, AR Kittyless, Vanguard V2, ETS 7'' FMIC, BMS DCI, BMS OCC, Rob Beck PCV 2 Fix, ST V1 Coilovers, BBS LM reps, Hankook V12 Evo...SWS 8, RF P-300 Amp, Technic
Soon:New SNAIL, Wavetrac/Quaife, M3 Bushings
Appreciate 0
      06-15-2012, 11:18 AM   #12
plague
Captain
plague's Avatar
14
Rep
956
Posts

 
Drives: 335i sold :( / jb 20th AE
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: NJ

iTrader: (2)

im subscribed to anything turbo upgrade N54 related. some big twins would be cool to see.. like they do on the gtr when upgrading turbos, bigger twins as opposed to switching single. im cool with either, i just want to see 650-700 whp consistent on pump gas and methanol. imo its not worth going to a big single to make only 550whp when rb's are making 500.. shiv's car is making 644 SO FAR, but no reports if customers cars making that yet so.. just waiting to see things develop...
__________________
07 335i- SOLD, and will be missed...

Parts for sale- PWM meth kit, M steering wheel, M shift knob, perforated e brake handle
Appreciate 0
      06-15-2012, 11:44 AM   #13
sdstatestud88
First Lieutenant
United_States
12
Rep
338
Posts

 
Drives: 2008 AW E92
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Hotlanta

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jippii ensio View Post
OP, just try them both and report back the difference
Paypal me a few grand and ill test them haha
__________________
Installed:Cobb AP, AR Kittyless, Vanguard V2, ETS 7'' FMIC, BMS DCI, BMS OCC, Rob Beck PCV 2 Fix, ST V1 Coilovers, BBS LM reps, Hankook V12 Evo...SWS 8, RF P-300 Amp, Technic
Soon:New SNAIL, Wavetrac/Quaife, M3 Bushings
Appreciate 0
      06-15-2012, 11:55 AM   #14
The Morkinator
Enlisted Member
1
Rep
36
Posts

 
Drives: I walk
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Houston

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by saxon View Post
honestly if your taking the manifolds off and making new manifolds, it would be cheaper and easier to just make a single (and most likely spool faster, and create as much if not more power)

if they could bolt up to the stock manifolds then it would be a great "cheaper" option but since new manifolds would have to be made I dont think its a viable option
It's cheaper to make two cast Iron manifolds, by a lot.
Appreciate 0
      06-15-2012, 11:56 AM   #15
TwinTurboXI
Major
40
Rep
1,390
Posts

 
Drives: 2011 135i
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Pittsburgh

iTrader: (9)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuraQ View Post
Just to let everyone know, so later its not said that the idea was hijacked, there is goign to be a TWIN TURBO upgrade for the N54 and yes the turbo on the table are prefixed with GT accompanied by a new turbo manifold.

Thats all I can say at this time, but yes, the idea by the OP and the original person, dzenno - that brought it to surface is already being planned and to be executed soon.
That would be great if it ever actually happened. Sadly, many have attempted various turbo upgrades that never really got anywhere.
Appreciate 0
      06-15-2012, 12:16 PM   #16
sdstatestud88
First Lieutenant
United_States
12
Rep
338
Posts

 
Drives: 2008 AW E92
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Hotlanta

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Morkinator View Post
It's cheaper to make two cast Iron manifolds, by a lot.
Agreed
__________________
Installed:Cobb AP, AR Kittyless, Vanguard V2, ETS 7'' FMIC, BMS DCI, BMS OCC, Rob Beck PCV 2 Fix, ST V1 Coilovers, BBS LM reps, Hankook V12 Evo...SWS 8, RF P-300 Amp, Technic
Soon:New SNAIL, Wavetrac/Quaife, M3 Bushings
Appreciate 0
      06-15-2012, 12:39 PM   #17
vereak82
Second Lieutenant
vereak82's Avatar
4
Rep
287
Posts

 
Drives: 6-spd e92 335i
Join Date: May 2011
Location: michigan

iTrader: (0)

500-550whp TT n54 with 500+ft lbs or torque would def net some nice 60-130 times as well as 1/4 et's man i need more power like yesterday!!!!
__________________
2008 135i 6-speed current stock for now
1995 e36 M3 5-speed
Jb4 G5//CM-FX400//FBO//Meth// 12.06@118 6-speed manual sold summer 2013
Appreciate 0
      06-15-2012, 12:41 PM   #18
sdstatestud88
First Lieutenant
United_States
12
Rep
338
Posts

 
Drives: 2008 AW E92
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Hotlanta

iTrader: (1)

And for all of us with Auto transmissions...You gotta pay to play....Hopefully someone besides level 10 can do an upgrade of some sort
__________________
Installed:Cobb AP, AR Kittyless, Vanguard V2, ETS 7'' FMIC, BMS DCI, BMS OCC, Rob Beck PCV 2 Fix, ST V1 Coilovers, BBS LM reps, Hankook V12 Evo...SWS 8, RF P-300 Amp, Technic
Soon:New SNAIL, Wavetrac/Quaife, M3 Bushings
Appreciate 0
      06-15-2012, 01:03 PM   #19
cityazndan
Major
cityazndan's Avatar
United_States
17
Rep
1,454
Posts

 
Drives: E90
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Alexandria, VA

iTrader: (15)

Garage List
2007 BMW 335i  [5.00]
IPT is better. Level10 has some horrid customer reviews (Coming from a Suby AT)
__________________
2007 BMW 335i | 6AT | ZSP | ZPP | ZCW {Smurfin' before it was cool}
|JB4 G5 ISO|Cobb|S&B Filters|RB|Evolution Racewerks|Synapse|ar design|JetHot|Active Autowerke|Bastuck|
||Amuse Ericcson|M-Sport|M5 SMG Knob|V1 Yellow Stripe Steering Wheel||
Appreciate 0
      06-15-2012, 01:32 PM   #20
benzy89
Banned
United_States
28
Rep
2,396
Posts

 
Drives: '08 E90 335i
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Northern NJ

iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2008 BMW 335i  [3.75]
Quote:
Originally Posted by cstavaru View Post
So if you have a target power in mind, you can choose the turbos based on that power. I know that GT28 are the smallest Garrett turbos with ball-bearing shafts but maybe even smaller turbos may be sufficient.

If you are really serious about this, I can run some numbers for your turbo setup (it does take like an hour to input the data though )
Since turbo size is an issue, and the RB/ASR turbos are already seeing 400-450 WHP (no meth), what would it take to get a 500 WHP N54 upgrade? Feel like the aftermarket turbos for that power range would be a lot more feasible then a 600+ WHP TT upgrade (at that point you're better off buying the single-turbo & turning your car into a Dyno/Drag Strip Toy).

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdstatestud88 View Post
And for all of us with Auto transmissions...You gotta pay to play....Hopefully someone besides level 10 can do an upgrade of some sort
Does anybody know if the 1M transmission is A) for sale or B) just an upgraded 135/335 MT?
Appreciate 0
      06-15-2012, 01:35 PM   #21
Fundahl
Captain
United_States
7
Rep
704
Posts

 
Drives: VO 1M, 300zx TT
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Corpus Christi, Texas

iTrader: (0)

If you wanna get really good spool, try to fit a medium-small frame Borg Warner EFR twin-scroll with a properly build manifold. (right runner lengths and proper cylinders per scroll)

With the EFR you can even eliminate the Diverter/Bypass/Blow-off valves. Boost recovery post shift would be awesome!
Appreciate 0
      06-15-2012, 01:48 PM   #22
MDORPHN
Colonel
41
Rep
2,549
Posts

 
Drives: AW 1M
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Wash, DC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundahl View Post
If you wanna get really good spool, try to fit a medium-small frame Borg Warner EFR twin-scroll with a properly build manifold. (right runner lengths and proper cylinders per scroll)

With the EFR you can even eliminate the Diverter/Bypass/Blow-off valves. Boost recovery post shift would be awesome!
But aren't they unobtanium?

Neil
Appreciate 0
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
gt28rs, single, turbo, twins, upgrade

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:56 PM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST