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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Helix Innovations in Intercooler Design



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      06-29-2012, 07:27 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cstavaru View Post
Hopefully you will also log and publish the wastegate ducty cycle (WGDC).
There are a lot of variables other than the intercooler that can dictate the WasteGate Duty Cycle.
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      06-29-2012, 07:58 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by SpaRTan8 View Post
The Helix header bar is half round and serves as a bell mouth/velocity stack into each charge row on the ambient side as well as charge row inlet and outlet. This transition is rated at .98 efficient. The Helix Stepped Core Intercooler is the only intercooler that offers these innovations. This is one more innovation that allows the Helix intercooler to outperform imitators and other offerings.
I assume your last picture is of the ambient side. Do you have a picture of the bell mouth headers from within the end tanks (charge side)? Just curious what it looks like.
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      06-29-2012, 08:08 AM   #25
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I assume your last picture is of the ambient side. Do you have a picture of the bell mouth headers from within the end tanks (charge side)? Just curious what it looks like.
I'll post one later today when I get to the shop. I have 100 intercoolers to QA, box, and ship. Not looking forward to the 100* 100%RH today. It will require liberal use of powder.
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      06-29-2012, 08:28 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaRTan8 View Post
There are a lot of variables other than the intercooler that can dictate the WasteGate Duty Cycle.
I was supposing that you intend to use the same car, and only switch the intercoolers for testing, right ? Because otherwise the comparison wouldn't really make sense. In this case, the wastegate duty cycle differences can only be attributed to the intercooler.
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      06-29-2012, 10:19 AM   #27
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I would like to see WGDC logged as well. I typically see ~50% WGDC on my ETS 5", averaged throughout a single gear pull. From the logs that I have seen of others running the Helix, it is usually ~10% higher (for example). I'm not sure if this increase is large enough to be concerned about?

Otherwise, when it comes to IAT suppression, the Helix appears to be one of the best out there. It's amazing that IATs actually DROP at the start of a pull.
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      06-29-2012, 10:35 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cstavaru View Post
I was supposing that you intend to use the same car, and only switch the intercoolers for testing, right ? Because otherwise the comparison wouldn't really make sense. In this case, the wastegate duty cycle differences can only be attributed to the intercooler.
This is partially correct, on many of the n54/n55 engine management systems there is AIT based boost/load which means that if the AiTS are low the tune will request more boost/load(and increase WGDC) this along with the fact that lower ait will also lower boost levels(via pressure drop which we are trying to differentiate in the calculator) can give a muddled view of reality. The BEST way to measure actual pressure drop is to measure pressure drop and then separate that into pressure drop caused by AIT reduction and pressure drop caused by frictional losses.
On the n54/n55 engine management system there is more power to be made via low AIT which has submaps that alter the tune/power, then boost level(lower wgdc) which is an arbitrary measure of restriction in the entire system which have no submaps to alter the tune, Shiv and Terry and any other tuner will attest to this, and have commented on this in other threads. This is the reason that fmics that have better temperature reduction have higher dyno deltas than those that are not very good at controlling temperature rise, anyone that loses power on a hot vs cold day can easily understand this

Last edited by TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management; 06-29-2012 at 10:57 AM.
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      06-29-2012, 05:53 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TTurboBullett View Post
This is partially correct, on many of the n54/n55 engine management systems there is AIT based boost/load which means that if the AiTS are low the tune will request more boost/load(and increase WGDC) this along with the fact that lower ait will also lower boost levels(via pressure drop which we are trying to differentiate in the calculator) can give a muddled view of reality. The BEST way to measure actual pressure drop is to measure pressure drop and then separate that into pressure drop caused by AIT reduction and pressure drop caused by frictional losses.
On the n54/n55 engine management system there is more power to be made via low AIT which has submaps that alter the tune/power, then boost level(lower wgdc) which is an arbitrary measure of restriction in the entire system which have no submaps to alter the tune, Shiv and Terry and any other tuner will attest to this, and have commented on this in other threads. This is the reason that fmics that have better temperature reduction have higher dyno deltas than those that are not very good at controlling temperature rise, anyone that loses power on a hot vs cold day can easily understand this
You are correct, but somewhat of an exaggeration. The psi different of 10deg is practically negligible in WGDC. You constantly disagree with anyone stating the Helix could potentially have higher pressure drop then other ICs. Iíve tested both AMS and Helix and the WGDC was almost 10% different between the 2 with the Helix running lower boost due to adaptation with the IC change. That being said I do like the Helix performance in IATsÖ I donít think others compare from what Iíve seen myself and in logs. But there is a tradeoff in pressure drop.

For someone targeting max boost with meth, I would NOT recommend the Helix. For someone wanting the most consistent, lowest IATs I would recommend Helix.

I'd love to see some actual pressure test data.
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      06-29-2012, 06:26 PM   #30
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thanks for this...I really want to change my intercooler out and deciding on the right one is a tough decision
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      06-29-2012, 09:07 PM   #31
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Is OP a vendor...?
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      06-30-2012, 10:59 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshboody View Post
You are correct, but somewhat of an exaggeration. The psi different of 10deg is practically negligible in WGDC. You constantly disagree with anyone stating the Helix could potentially have higher pressure drop then other ICs. Iíve tested both AMS and Helix and the WGDC was almost 10% different between the 2 with the Helix running lower boost due to adaptation with the IC change. That being said I do like the Helix performance in IATsÖ I donít think others compare from what Iíve seen myself and in logs. But there is a tradeoff in pressure drop.

For someone targeting max boost with meth, I would NOT recommend the Helix. For someone wanting the most consistent, lowest IATs I would recommend Helix.

I'd love to see some actual pressure test data.
Here are some results from a typical intercooler scenario and running it through the PV=nRT formula (P=nRT/V):

Take a cubic foot of air @ 210F inlet temperature and a molar weight of 1.26414494, the pressure will be 20.029psi (intercooler inlet).

Reduce the temperature of the same air values to 74F, the pressure will be reduced to 15.9psi (More thermal efficient intercooler outlet).

Now use the same values again for 84F, the result is 16.26psi. Close to a half a pound of pressure and 10 degrees hotter (Less thermal efficient intercooler outlet).

The result of the more thermal efficient intercooler over the less efficient intercooler is an ECU adaptive increase of wastegate duty cycle to:
  1. Increase boost pressures because of the lower IAT to take advantage of increased power potential.
  2. Increase boost to fill in the pressure delta between actual boost and requested boost target and ultimately

An increase of ignition timing is also a result of lower IAT.
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      06-30-2012, 12:53 PM   #33
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It being a blistering hot summer I was wondering...Is there another Helix FMIC Group Buy still going? Because I live in Alabama and yesterday it hit 107F...I need this haha!
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      06-30-2012, 01:00 PM   #34
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Quote:
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It being a blistering hot summer I was wondering...Is there another Helix FMIC Group Buy still going? Because I live in Alabama and yesterday it hit 107F...I need this haha!
Give Helix a call on Monday. We might have a deal for ya.
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      06-30-2012, 01:07 PM   #35
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Is OP a vendor...?
Could be one of those ninja vendors?

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      06-30-2012, 02:04 PM   #36
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      07-01-2012, 09:12 AM   #37
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[quote=Helix Wildebeest]
Quote:
Originally Posted by venom3469 View Post
It being a blistering hot summer I was wondering...Is there another Helix FMIC Group Buy still going? Because I live in Alabama and yesterday it hit 107F...I need this haha!
Sweet, will do!!
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      07-01-2012, 10:35 AM   #38
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I must be missing something in the translation. I have the 'other' FMIC that is being crucified here and I cannot find the fault. Absolute plug and play <30min start to finish install.

What are the real world performance differences that will be realized and noticed (not laboratory measured) between the two? You know I can go out and spend $130 on some new Nike Vomero 6's or I can go get the other guys brand for 20% less. You can present to me the laboratory tests that show the differences but while running around the block am I going to notice or care?

See attached. Stock COBB Stg 1+ FMIC Aggressive v4.01 ST

What am I missing? How would this log look different with the Helix? What would I notice different with the Helix?

I live in the world of Consulting. If you cannot show the value in the difference it doesn't matter. I cannot find the 'value' in the difference.

T
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File Type: zip datalog5.csv.zip (2.3 KB, 36 views)
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      07-01-2012, 12:02 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Mangler View Post
I must be missing something in the translation. I have the 'other' FMIC that is being crucified here and I cannot find the fault. Absolute plug and play <30min start to finish install.

What are the real world performance differences that will be realized and noticed (not laboratory measured) between the two? You know I can go out and spend $130 on some new Nike Vomero 6's or I can go get the other guys brand for 20% less. You can present to me the laboratory tests that show the differences but while running around the block am I going to notice or care?

See attached. Stock COBB Stg 1+ FMIC Aggressive v4.01 ST

What am I missing? How would this log look different with the Helix? What would I notice different with the Helix?

I live in the world of Consulting. If you cannot show the value in the difference it doesn't matter. I cannot find the 'value' in the difference.

T
The problem with your intercooler is the pinch point that restricts air flow. The problem with the company that makes it is their disrespectful business practices. They're like Walmart. Manufacture a reasonable replica of a successful product and undercut the price. That's pretty lame.
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      07-01-2012, 12:23 PM   #40
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Quote:
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The problem with your intercooler is the pinch point that restricts air flow. The problem with the company that makes it is their disrespectful business practices. They're like Walmart. Manufacture a reasonable replica of a successful product and undercut the price. That's pretty lame.
What CFM does the restriction start making a noticeable loss in performance?

And to your second point, have you looked around at every single product in the market today? Value value value, comes in second only to location location location. Which inter cooler performs better? Probably the Helix. Which intercoer provides the best value to me? The one I purchased.

T
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      07-01-2012, 02:01 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by djjasper View Post
The problem with your intercooler is the pinch point that restricts air flow. The problem with the company that makes it is their disrespectful business practices. They're like Walmart. Manufacture a reasonable replica of a successful product and undercut the price. That's pretty lame.
What CFM does the restriction start making a noticeable loss in performance?

And to your second point, have you looked around at every single product in the market today? Value value value, comes in second only to location location location. Which inter cooler performs better? Probably the Helix. Which intercoer provides the best value to me? The one I purchased.

T
I see Hyundai, Hyundai, Hyundai in your future.
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      07-01-2012, 05:28 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCweapon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mangler
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Originally Posted by djjasper View Post
The problem with your intercooler is the pinch point that restricts air flow. The problem with the company that makes it is their disrespectful business practices. They're like Walmart. Manufacture a reasonable replica of a successful product and undercut the price. That's pretty lame.
What CFM does the restriction start making a noticeable loss in performance?

And to your second point, have you looked around at every single product in the market today? Value value value, comes in second only to location location location. Which inter cooler performs better? Probably the Helix. Which intercoer provides the best value to me? The one I purchased.

T
I see Hyundai, Hyundai, Hyundai in your future.
Nope those cars have no value to me.

T
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      07-01-2012, 05:53 PM   #43
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The problem with your intercooler is the pinch point that restricts air flow. The problem with the company that makes it is their disrespectful business practices. They're like Walmart. Manufacture a reasonable replica of a successful product and undercut the price. That's pretty lame.
Here's where I disagree with your statement - Helix does not offer an intercooler for those who do not want to hack up their factory couplers. There was a niche to be filled and someone filled it. If Helix would make a unit with the factory couplers, I would have bought it(and I'm sure there are others who feel the same way).
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      07-01-2012, 06:51 PM   #44
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Wanger strolled onto the scene with a copy of the Helix intercooler and to this day is still pretending they did no wrong. They need to man up and address their breach of respect to the tuners who pour their time, money, and all the risk involved in new product development into innovation. And that's the truth.
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