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      07-31-2012, 06:04 PM   #23
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You're definately on the right path going with 200hz/24db and 50hz/24db. Just keep playing around with the calibration volume. The 31 band eq is also fundamental in getting the right response so make sure you play with this too.

Also, don't worry too much about the lack of bass. Your friend has the stock hifi set up, so his stock amp may be running the woofers lower than 50hz/24db, and can get away with no/little distortion as the overall volume is lower than your Hifi + MS-8. Im not 100% that is the case as i dont know much about the Hifi set up, but its likely. Also when you amp and/or replace woofers it will definately improve.
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      08-01-2012, 04:08 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mob17 View Post
You're definately on the right path going with 200hz/24db and 50hz/24db. Just keep playing around with the calibration volume. The 31 band eq is also fundamental in getting the right response so make sure you play with this too.

Also, don't worry too much about the lack of bass. Your friend has the stock hifi set up, so his stock amp may be running the woofers lower than 50hz/24db, and can get away with no/little distortion as the overall volume is lower than your Hifi + MS-8. Im not 100% that is the case as i dont know much about the Hifi set up, but its likely. Also when you amp and/or replace woofers it will definately improve.
Yeah im not to worried, All the other speakers sound great besides the under-seats... Once I amp them and add a sub "soon" ill be on to a great sounding setup.

+ I figure in the OEM config there made to carry all the bass, Now there setup for strictly mid since the setup is assuming a trunk sub will be added.
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      08-05-2012, 02:02 PM   #25
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Oh boy well was going to wait a little but could not pass up this good deal.



This amp will be used for the following :
  • Amp the underseats for now with the 100w x2 RMS in 2Ω
    ( OEM HiFi Underseats are 2Ω I believe )

  • Amp the future sub 300W RMS @ 2Ω for a VP Box w/ Image Dynamics ID10D4v.3.

Just gotta purchase some RCA interconnects, Some 8 Gauge power wire and figure out what clip I need to tap into the OEM Battery distribution block. I think I saved the part #s somewhere.

Hopefully this doesnt make tuning the MS8 that much harder, Its gotta sound better with more clean power.
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      08-05-2012, 02:32 PM   #26
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I think this is a good choice.

You will need 3x RCA for midbass + Sub

However 2x RCA (one pair) is all thats required if you later decide on the Kaigoss mod (running sub off of midbass channels). I still think this is the best tune I have had on MS-8 and may go back to it.

I believe the OEM battery connections are listed on my old build thread.
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      08-05-2012, 03:43 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl
I think this is a good choice.

You will need 3x RCA for midbass + Sub

However 2x RCA (one pair) is all thats required if you later decide on the Kaigoss mod (running sub off of midbass channels). I still think this is the best tune I have had on MS-8 and may go back to it.

I believe the OEM battery connections are listed on my old build thread.
Cool, I'll probaly just grab one pair of RCA's than, Will I also need to splitters? 1 female > 2 males ( so I have 4 connections into the Amp )?

From all the reading I've done it seems everyone goes with the kaigoss method for the best mid and sub output..

Just checked your thread for the part #'s - http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...9&postcount=19
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      08-07-2012, 10:24 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw325i View Post
I'd do the sws8's and amp before adding the ms8. The ms8 is not very powerful and the underseats are 4 ohm so they will get alot less power than stock. With just the underseats amped it should actually sound very good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by QUiKSR20 View Post
Thanks brotha,

I think an AMP + New underseats would give more boom if thats all you plan on changing.
I did the MS8 route first to get my baseline taken care of, Now I can build off that configuration with more.
Thanks. Eventually, I would like to do everything but a trunk sub-ms-8, sw8s + amp, and at least center channel. Possibly the doors upgraded at some point. I was just wondering about the best starting point that would buy me the most time.
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      08-15-2012, 02:54 AM   #29
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Round 2 getting installed this weekend.. JL Audio 500/3 ( 2 channels for the 8" underseats + 1 channel for future sub ).

For Sub & 8" underseats gonna do Kaigoss method :
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=376

Seems to net the best results, Since I need 4 RCA inputs at the AMP can anyone confirm if I need 1 Pair of RCAs or 1 Pair off the under-seat channels
of the MS8 + 2 Splitters so I still fill up the 4 RCA spots at the amp.

Thanks and updates coming soon
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      08-15-2012, 05:26 PM   #30
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The virtue of the JLs with dedicated sub channels is that they have a 2CH input mode. No splitters or extra RCA's are required to run the Sub off of the midbass signals; it is all internal to the amp. That being said, if you want you can run 4 pairs of RCA's to the amp and simply switch between 4Ch an 2Ch input mode, if you want to compare the kaigoss and non kaigoss method. However, for 4Ch input mode you will need a 1Male to 2Male RCA Y adapter as the MS-8 will give you a single sub out while the XD needs a stereo sub in. Clear as mud?
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      08-15-2012, 09:59 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
The virtue of the JLs with dedicated sub channels is that they have a 2CH input mode. No splitters or extra RCA's are required to run the Sub off of the midbass signals; it is all internal to the amp. That being said, if you want you can run 4 pairs of RCA's to the amp and simply switch between 4Ch an 2Ch input mode, if you want to compare the kaigoss and non kaigoss method. However, for 4Ch input mode you will need a 1Male to 2Male RCA Y adapter as the MS-8 will give you a single sub out while the XD needs a stereo sub in. Clear as mud?
Clear as can be I saw that 2CH Mode button and figured maybe id only need one pair.. Cool Ill order 1 pair for now the
consensus is that Kaigoss method sounds the best, If I want to test later I have some extra RCAs I can use for testing.

Should be installing next week, For Kaigoss it looks like I set subsonic to 20Hz/24 slope and then tweak everything at the amp.

AMP
  • CH1/2 (8"s) - 50Hz / ( no slope option at amp ) Assuming this slope is covered by the 24 slope for subsonic in the MS8
  • Sub - 50Hz /12 ( will be adding the ID10 D4 wired in parallel for 2Ω ). soon..



Any idea whats a good baseline for CH1/CH2 gain? ( not worried about sub gain as thats a pretty easy one to set ).
Dont wanna give the stock 8's too much or throw off the MS8 when re-calibrating.
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      08-16-2012, 10:55 PM   #32
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Not sure whether to use both ports on the sub output of the XD.

You can adjust gain per the XD manual to find the MAX voltage based gain...then adjust down from there to SPL match with your DLS.

Plan to cross underseats 50/12 (sub channel unused initially), then try 80/12x2way when you add the sub.

Also ramelectronics dot net has great 6 and 12 inch RCA's...perfect for short runs.
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      08-16-2012, 11:58 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
Not sure whether to use both ports on the sub output of the XD.

Figured it out, its just 2 outputs but internally they are 1.

Sounds easy but im still unsure, I want 2Ω and a DVC ID10 4Ω sub is what I think I need for this
Just not sure if I run 4 direct wires from the amp to both terminals on the sub or not[/b]

You can adjust gain per the XD manual to find the MAX voltage based gain...then adjust down from there to SPL match with your DLS.

Cool will do. Just gotta remember to turn off processing & L7 in MS8 before setting level.

Plan to cross underseats 50/12 (sub channel unused initially), then try

50Hz/12 @ the 500/3 right? ( SET MS8 SUBSONIC to 20Hz/24? ) Going Kaigoss Route.

80/12x2way when you add the sub.

Perfect

Also ramelectronics dot net has great 6 and 12 inch RCA's...perfect for short runs.
Im working this weekend but the amp should be installed next sat, Cant wait.
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      08-24-2012, 09:56 AM   #34
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Taibanl,

Let me know if you can confirm these settings... Hoping to install this weekend
  • 50Hz/12 @ the 500/3 right? ( MID ) ( SET MS8 SUBSONIC to 20Hz/24? )
    Going Kaigoss Route.

  • 80/12x2way when you add the sub.

Gonna call JL or do some more research whether this amp is bridged traditionally with the wiring or see if I have to run 4 wires to the sub.
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      08-24-2012, 05:08 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QUiKSR20 View Post
Taibanl,

Let me know if you can confirm these settings... Hoping to install this weekend
  • 50Hz/12 @ the 500/3 right? ( MID ) ( SET MS8 SUBSONIC to 20Hz/24? )
    Going Kaigoss Route..
No, for now use the MS-8 filters for your low pass to the midbasses. If the MS-8 finds something missing that it expects to be there (namely audio in the 20-50hz band), calamity will ensue and your results will suck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QUiKSR20 View Post
  • 80/12x2way when you add the sub.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QUiKSR20 View Post
Gonna call JL or do some more research whether this amp is bridged traditionally with the wiring or see if I have to run 4 wires to the sub.
Electrically I don't think it will matter... (except the miniscule difference in impedence in running double the wire). I would do whatever the manual recommends...keeping in mind that a DVC sub is essentially 2 subs.
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      08-24-2012, 05:51 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
[/list]No, for now use the MS-8 filters for your low pass to the midbasses. If the MS-8 finds something missing that it expects to be there (namely audio in the 20-50hz band), calamity will ensue and your results will suck.
[/list]Electrically I don't think it will matter... (except the miniscule difference in impedence in running double the wire). I would do whatever the manual recommends...keeping in mind that a DVC sub is essentially 2 subs.
Ahhh.. So basically cant wire or configure anything for Kaigoss method until a sub is present. For now just set up as amped underseats
and do config the same as I do now in the MS8.. SUBSONIC 50HZ/24 and then leave amp HP Filter off ( x/over flat on amp ) and just set gain.

Down the road once the sub is present then go with the above settings etc?

As of right now it sounds good, Just want to configure with the AMPED underseats until I order the sub.


So :

Settings without sub present. MS8 same as with no amp.

MS8 ( current settings working great )

* Front = 2-way,
* 50Hz subsonic/24dB, 200Hz at 24dB Hi/Lo
* Center = 1-way, 200Hz at 24dB
* Sides = 1-way, 200Hz at 24dB
* Calibration volume = -21dB
* Main volume after calibration = -6dB

AMP Added

( just set gains with all amp x-overs flat )

Then when I add a sub soon

Settings with Sub Present

MS8

* Front = 2-way,
* 20Hz subsonic/24dB, 200Hz at 24dB Hi/Lo
* Center = 1-way, 200Hz at 24dB
* Sides = 1-way, 200Hz at 24dB
* Calibration volume = -21dB
* Main volume after calibration = -6dB

AMP

50Hz/12 @ the 500/3 right? ( MID )
80/12x2way ( SUB )

Sorry if im making this out to be more than what it is, Just want it to sound good on the first few trys.
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      08-24-2012, 07:25 PM   #37
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You wire for the sub NOW. You will just not give that section of the amp a signal (yet) and your sub wiring wont go anywhere. But leave input switch to 4ch until the sub arrives.

Then switch input to 2ch.

Reset ms8 hp to 20/24

Set sub lp to 80/12 on 500/3
Set mb hp to 80 on 500/3

You MAY want to switch the polarity of the sub to cancel out the 180 degree phase shift that occurs with a 12db crossover. Measurement shouls confirm.
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      08-24-2012, 11:22 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
You wire for the sub NOW. You will just not give that section of the amp a signal (yet) and your sub wiring wont go anywhere. But leave input switch to 4ch until the sub arrives.
Gotcha, Yeah bad wording on my part I meant configure. Ill have all the wiring in place at the time of the amp install for everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
Then switch input to 2ch.

Reset ms8 hp to 20/24

Set sub lp to 80/12 on 500/3
Set mb hp to 80 on 500/3

You MAY want to switch the polarity of the sub to cancel out the 180 degree phase shift that occurs with a 12db crossover. Measurement shouls confirm.
Ok I think I have this ( internet makes it harder than in person sometimes )..
So all the settings above are for when I add a sub I got that, Change the AMP and MS8 to the above and be good to go.
For now im going to focus on setting the amp / MS8 for just the underseats.

So settings for without the sub :
  • Amp set to 4ch mode
  • Amp X-Over set to Off ( flat )ch1-ch2 ?
  • MS8 settings same as current without the amp
  • Set gain on ch1/2 accordingly on amp for underseats then lower to a nice point that blends with the rest.

Done?

Thanks again man!!
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      08-25-2012, 08:58 PM   #39
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Yup. Use the manual to set the xd to its max output then turn down to level match w DLS using ms-8 test menu test tones.
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      08-25-2012, 08:58 PM   #40
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Yup. Use the manual to set the xd to its max output then turn down to level match w DLS using ms-8 test menu test tones.
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      08-26-2012, 07:41 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
Yup. Use the manual to set the xd to its max output then turn down to level match w DLS using ms-8 test menu test tones.
Great, Wanted to do this weekend but stuff has come up. I did however get a few minutes and removed the satellite radio box
to make room for my amp, Ill save the tuner but I never seem myself ordering service when I can stream anything from my iPhone for free.

Preparation for Stage II ( amp for underseats ).



If anyone plans on doing this as well remember the sat tuner is part of the MOST Network
So if you remove you break the fiber optic network. To do this correctly you need to add the proper loop back parts.

2 Parts are needed :



Part #61136917541
Part #61136917978

Its like $12 in parts and takes 5 mins,

Quote:
Info below from this thread - http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...=sirius&page=2



1. Ignore the pink antenna wire and the small fan wire and just tape them off to the side so they dont rattle.
2. Pop out the two fiber optic cables from their black cover( PART 1 ) & insert in ( PART 3 ) by pulling up on the small clip with your fingernail.
3. Snap the two fiber optic cables into the new small black cover. ( PART 3 )
4. Remove the black protector thats on the termination loop contacts
5. Snap the small clip with the fiber optic cables into the big termination loop ( PART 2 ).
6. Tape the termination loop and other black box of wires down to prevent rattles and your done.

All the connectors only connect one way, so you cannot put them in backwards. You do not need any tools to change the wires.
Just a wrench to remove the sat box bolts. And thanks to Tom at EAS, as this could not have been done so easily without his help.
When your done just tape it to the side out of the way.



Now you got a nice clean spot to mount the amp, Time to build a nice plug n play power wire that will power the amp.
I built the wires prior to installing to save some time ( install time is limited with a little guy running around at home ).

Some Supplies :
  • 4ft of Knuconceptz.com 8 gauge ground wire w/terminal
  • 12ft of Knuconceptz.com 8 gauge power wire
  • 60amp Inline Circuit Breaker
  • 18 Gauge wiring to go from Technic harness to amp ( UNDERSEATS )
  • Pin for use in OEM Power plug / Part # - 61136920094
  • Plug for power distribution block / Part # - 61136925176

Time to make an OEM style power wire ( would never even know about this if it wasnt for you guys

' bought an extra pin / plug just incase something didnt go as planned ' .


' All crimped up and ready for shrink wrap ', You will need a molex style crimper for this.


' final and ready for the install '


If you noticed the snap connector is chopped off the power plug, Not exactly
what I had planned but now I see why all the other installs I saw people using
the double plug even if they only had 1 power wire.

On the OEM distribution block there is a double and two single inputs, Well
the singles have no pins on the inside so you get no power and it will not fit
into the double slot.... Well unless you just clip off the clip.

I will replace soon with a double, I will just have to de-pin it and push into
the double plug. In all seriousness though its not going to fall out, It still snaps
in tight and is not loose at all.

Patch cables made to extend from the Technic harness to the amp, Its 18
gauge wire from the spool I bought for my door speakers but it should be
fine for an amp carrying 100w rms about 4 feet.



All the cables have been wrapped in Techflex where exposed to make for a
cleaner looking install in the end.
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      09-09-2012, 07:26 PM   #42
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Just finished the install ( will post pics shortly ), Didnt retune just yet as I ran out of time as usual..

Impressions so far " DAMN, WOW " Just set the gain to 9 oclock position ( min = 7 ) Saw this in one of Technics threads.

Sounds damn good, Way more mid bass hit without even retuning.

One thing though when I tried level matching I used my iPhone and JL Audio app for SPL Meter ( put iPhone next to shifter on center console ).

Played a test tone from MS8 and the front speakers registry 92-95dbs when played through the underseats it registers around 84db's If I bring
them to 92-95db I feel ill be overpowering them but then again maybe a retune will bring it right back in line.

Either or they sound way way better, this is the biggest improvement almost more than the MS8 over stock amp..

Will post pics of install asap + set aside time for a retune.
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      09-09-2012, 08:33 PM   #43
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Congrats!

Just be careful playing the pink noise at that db level. I normally turn the ms-8 volume down, so im measuring around 50-60db, as the pink noise is unfiltered and might damage your speakers.

Also measure the SPL level at your head position. Regarding the woofer SPL, as long as you don't overpower them it should be ok. From what i remember i think the OEM Hifi amp gives the woofers 40w so maybe a bit more than this is ok? I suggest turning the woofer amp gain to the safest max and then turn your other gains down to match the underseats.

Another tip. To try and see if you're calibrating ok, play the pink noise and adjust the ms-8 volume until it gets to 50-54db. Then calibrate using that volume. I have found that ranfe works best for me but it may be different for you.

Have fun tuning.
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      09-09-2012, 09:09 PM   #44
QUiKSR20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mob17 View Post
Congrats!

Just be careful playing the pink noise at that db level. I normally turn the ms-8 volume down, so im measuring around 50-60db, as the pink noise is unfiltered and might damage your speakers.

Thanks!, Man im slow today I didnt even think to lower the MS8 volume while calibrating gain.

Also measure the SPL level at your head position. Regarding the woofer SPL, as long as you don't overpower them it should be ok. From what i remember i think the OEM Hifi amp gives the woofers 40w so maybe a bit more than this is ok?

It sounds great as is the 500/3 is 100w RMS in 2 ohms for those 2 channels.
gain is about 1/4 or less the way up and sounds great but I need to re-tune the MS8 still ( its sounding great already ) But still on the tune from when the MS8 was powering underseats.


I suggest turning the woofer amp gain to the safest max and then turn your other gains down to match the underseats.

Everything else is running from the MS8 so havent played with any gains.

Another tip. To try and see if you're calibrating ok, play the pink noise and adjust the ms-8 volume until it gets to 50-54db. Then calibrate using that volume. I have found that range works best for me but it may be different for you.

Will do!

Have fun tuning.
Thanks man its been a journey so far but it keeps getting better and better. Next will be installing the door speakers + sub.
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