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      07-19-2012, 03:15 AM   #23
Kerr
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Originally Posted by Carjack View Post
I bought my diesel 320D auto rather than a petrol 320i auto because of its much superior performance. Its extra cost is also good value for money.
The better fuel consumption is a useful bonus!
There are a few exceptions although the 4 pot diesel is very rough. Fine on the motorway but too coarse in day to day driving for me.
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      07-19-2012, 03:36 AM   #24
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Do many folks in the UK or other European countries buy and keep their cars for 10 years or longer? Just wondering....

I am a buy-and-keep person, so the resale value of the car doesn't often matter to me because by the time I'm getting rid of the car, it's dropped so much in value that any marginally higher resale value I may have been able to realize at some point prior to 10+ years on has been eroded.

That said, my benchmark, for as long as I've been buying cars, typically is 10 years of anticipated ownership for a given vehicle, although in reality I did keep my last 3er -- an E36 sedan -- for 14 years, and I still have the '86 MB sedan my parents gave me in '98 (or maybe it was '97, I don't exactly recall). But if I knew going in that I HAD TO keep a car for 14 or more years to recoup the purchase price premium, I would probably not buy the it, especially as I have a hard time driving even 9000 miles each year.

Being that I'm over 50, I don't expect my driving or ownership patterns will change much in the next decade. If anything, I'll likely drive less as I expect I'll retire 8 years from now.

Then again, I've never been 60 or retired before, and I do have some friends who, after retiring, began taking road trips like there was no tomorrow. With time to burn, driving rather than flying to their domestic destinations became plausible. That's what my folks did too, so much so that their annual mileage nearly doubled to about 22K/year between their mid 60s and 80 years of age.

Also, retired folks do keep cars longer. So maybe that article is quite germane for Baby Boomers, many of whom I doubt participate in this forum, but all of whom, if not already retired, are soon to retire and who may well adopt the driving pattern changes I note above.

Just offering my $0.02 to share a different perspective on the article as I know prior to becoming 40-something, I had no idea how much 20 years of adult experiences yield very different conclusions than those one would have made based on shorter periods of sanity. (I'm now, having raised three children, convinced that whatever one thinks from birth to 18-20 is mostly the result of insanity, perceived immortality, and wishful thinking.)
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      07-19-2012, 04:24 AM   #25
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I change cars quite regularly.

One car I kept for 5 years but other than that rarely do I last more than 18 months.

Depreciation matters more on new cars. They instantly lose a fortune as soon as they leave the showroom.

Cars lose most value in the first couple of years, then ease up.

If you are buying a 2 year old BMW 3 series in this country I don't follow the logic about worrying about depreciation. The person who bought it new has taken the biggest hit and the car will continue to depreciate like all cars.

People keep comparing the 335i to the 335d on here.

The 335d costs a little more new, 2 year old cars have a bigger gap in favour of the 335d but then 5 years later the value between both cars actually closes again.

Too many people are getting their knickers in a twist over really trivial amounts of money when driving a BMW.
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      07-19-2012, 05:34 AM   #26
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Sorry but I drive my 335d like I stole it (DS, DTC, excess speed, power from every set of lights, sideways on most roundabouts) and haven't managed to get it below 20.

Average of last 2000 miles which includes the northern meet and the mad driving that is associated with it, is 29.


On a motorway it gets over 50 if driven calmly and around town even with my driving style (my 1.6 peugeot 206 got me 19mpg and my 2.0 320 got me 28mpg) I get 25.9 from it.


So the talk of big diesels being terrible on fuel under load is rubbish ;-)
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      07-19-2012, 05:45 AM   #27
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I've had a BMW 120d sub 20mpg but could be 60+ cruising.

All cars use fuel when you put your foot down.

What does the 335d trip computer go to when your foot is flat on the floor?
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      07-19-2012, 05:55 AM   #28
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I'll check it out and report back. I imagine sub 10 to be fair but I'm not sure how accurate a reflection that is
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      07-19-2012, 05:56 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MEGA View Post
Sorry but I drive my 335d like I stole it (DS, DTC, excess speed, power from every set of lights, sideways on most roundabouts) and haven't managed to get it below 20.

Average of last 2000 miles which includes the northern meet and the mad driving that is associated with it, is 29.


On a motorway it gets over 50 if driven calmly and around town even with my driving style (my 1.6 peugeot 206 got me 19mpg and my 2.0 320 got me 28mpg) I get 25.9 from it.


So the talk of big diesels being terrible on fuel under load is rubbish ;-)
You also factored before tyres lasting a full year.

I would hope that you don't get sideways on most roundabouts on public roads as that would just be a stupid way to drive.

If you are getting sideways on most roundabouts tyres will last no time at all.
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      07-19-2012, 05:58 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MEGA View Post
I'll check it out and report back. I imagine sub 10 to be fair but I'm not sure how accurate a reflection that is
It will be sub 10 and if you keep your foot down long enough obviously your average is going to be low.

Hence why Carlos managed 16mpg and the 535d test of speed proving even less.

It happens with all cars no matter the fuel.
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      07-19-2012, 06:05 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
Do many folks in the UK or other European countries buy and keep their cars for 10 years or longer? Just wondering....

I am a buy-and-keep person, so the resale value of the car doesn't often matter to me because by the time I'm getting rid of the car, it's dropped so much in value that any marginally higher resale value I may have been able to realize at some point prior to 10+ years on has been eroded.
I had a German business colleague who couldn't understantd the British way of changing cars on a regular basis. He and his associates would buy to run 250,000 Kms and then the car would usually go to another member of the family. So he would buy a Merc or BMW and depreciation would be written off over the life of the car, not some artificial 3-year marker being the benchmark of running costs.

In the UK the notion of the 3-year residual has been mainly influenced by the company car lease. The 'Company Car' made its impact when the UK tax system allowed for it to really be a low tax perk, and it took off and has greatly influenced the motor trade and car values, as 3-years is the typical lease period.

I used to be in the motor trade years back, in a franchised garage and the pattern was so different pre company car days. New buyers were more into wanting 6 or more years from a car, or the life cycle of a particular model.

In today's market that would be something like one E46, one E90 and now an F30 over what, 18 years. But I do feel the company car influence has passed across to the whole car buying scene, we keep needing to update, whether new or used, (to save on the initial depreciation hit).

True it is not the whole picture, as factors like boom times and easy credit also allow users to waste money on changing cars, really far too often to make economical sense. This of course also knocks residual values as there are more cars out there in the marketplace.

One of the strange traits of human nature I've observed, is when fuel prices rise, folks will spend £1,000's to save a couple of pence per mile. Hence the surge to diesel, without really considering "is there a real cost saving".

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      07-19-2012, 06:09 AM   #32
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I use my 335D almost exclusively in a town/suburban envronment and have not reset the trip meter for about 3 years. Presently at 32.8 mpg for city driving.

The 4.2 Jaguar I had before was at 16mpg in the exact same driving conditions. So that is literally twice the economy for a car that accelerates more effortlessly than the Jag in town.

On a nice fast trip across Europe from Switzerland, through London for 2 days and up home to Scotland LINK : I averaged 40.9 mpg.

This discussion about recouping costs has been done ad nauseum. And if I had bought my 335D as a way to save on fuel costs it would be a perfectly legitimate point.

BUT. I didn't buy my 335D on the basis of economy. It was more expensive than a 335i (M3 had not yet been released). If I had wanted to save money and economise I wouldn't have bought any BMW, let's face it.

I bought it simply for the way it drove. I don't need to redline it everywhere to get silly acceleration. I love the laid back, powerful torque at low revs. I love that I can literally blast across Europe without filling up.

The fact that if I keep it long enough it will work out cheaper than a petrol equivalent is just a lovely bonus. Not stopping at the fuel pumps so regularly is a also good.

I could've bought an M3. But one thing is certain, no matter how long I kept that, it would never recoup the initial higher outlay costs. Yet I can see perfectly well while people buy M3s. We didn't buy our cars because of economy.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MEGA View Post
Sorry but I drive my 335d like I stole it (DS, DTC, excess speed, power from every set of lights, sideways on most roundabouts) and haven't managed to get it below 20.

Average of last 2000 miles which includes the northern meet and the mad driving that is associated with it, is 29.


On a motorway it gets over 50 if driven calmly and around town even with my driving style (my 1.6 peugeot 206 got me 19mpg and my 2.0 320 got me 28mpg) I get 25.9 from it.


So the talk of big diesels being terrible on fuel under load is rubbish ;-)
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      07-19-2012, 06:13 AM   #33
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Part 2 of the article will be how diesel cars cause cancer.
Bzzzt. This is the Daily Mail. Part 2 will be how diesel cars are causing an influx of Eastern European immigrants coming in, using our diesel, driving our roads, taking our women etc etc.

Last edited by kaishang; 07-19-2012 at 08:30 AM.
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      07-19-2012, 06:40 AM   #34
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Quote:
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So the talk of big diesels being terrible on fuel under load is rubbish ;-)
I don't think anyone is saying diesel mpg is rubbish. I'm certainly not. What I am saying (and the research on 'aggressive factors' supports this as well) the gap between diesel and petrol narrows as we drive them harder.

Plus the factor that most folks are measuring mpg against the official figures, and choose their engine type on that basis. It is there that we also see the mpg shortfall in the real world, indicating diesel performs less well in real world driving. OK, we are still getting better mpg than we would in the petrol, but not the advantage we may hope for.

To illustrate the petrol/diesel driving briskly scenario. From some tests, take an Audi A6 Avant 3.0d auto that had a combined figure of 33.2mpg, it records something like 32.9mpg when driven briskly, 35.6mpg when driven gently. A Ford Focus ST with a combined figure of 30.4mpg, driven over the same course as the Audi recorded 33.2mpg when driven briskly, and 38.5mpg when driven gently.

I use the examples to show the petrol doesn't disgrace itself when driven briskly, it still exceeds the combined figure. Something most diesels didn't do in those same tests. I know this is not the whole story, but I certainly didn't expect the performance Focus to do so well, even if the baseline figure is lower.

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      07-19-2012, 08:04 AM   #35
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I get 50mpg plus on a steady run and late 30ís around town. Suits me fine. Also people forget the road tax is little cheaper for a diesel compared to an equivalent petrol.
Anyway, I didnít buy it solely for economy, as said above I prefer the way a diesel drives. A quarter to half throttle and Iím fooked off down the road and no need to revs the tits off it to get the same effect.
My days of revving the hell out of an engine to get performance are gone these days Ė I find it quite tedious to be honest.

Nowt wrong with either engine though and each to their own.
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      07-19-2012, 09:44 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerr View Post
You also factored before tyres lasting a full year.

I would hope that you don't get sideways on most roundabouts on public roads as that would just be a stupid way to drive.

If you are getting sideways on most roundabouts tyres will last no time at all.
Why is it a stupid way to drive if I have a bit of fun when there are no cars around me without breaking any speed limit ?
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      07-19-2012, 10:15 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaishang View Post
Bzzzt. This is the Daily Mail. Part 2 will be how diesel cars are causing an influx of Eastern European immigrants coming in, using our diesel, driving our roads, taking our women etc etc.
They're not taking our Women as well now are they?

Watch your wallets the Romanian gypo's are coming!
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      07-19-2012, 10:16 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MEGA View Post
Sorry but I drive my 335d like I stole it (DS, DTC, excess speed, power from every set of lights, sideways on most roundabouts) and haven't managed to get it below 20.

Average of last 2000 miles which includes the northern meet and the mad driving that is associated with it, is 29.


On a motorway it gets over 50 if driven calmly and around town even with my driving style (my 1.6 peugeot 206 got me 19mpg and my 2.0 320 got me 28mpg) I get 25.9 from it.


So the talk of big diesels being terrible on fuel under load is rubbish ;-)
Quote:
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Why is it a stupid way to drive if I have a bit of fun when there are no cars around me without breaking any speed limit ?
You may want to read your own post again.

If a young boy in a Vauxhall Nova typed that the internet would have him.
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      07-19-2012, 12:39 PM   #39
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      07-19-2012, 02:15 PM   #40
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This is not the point of these reports, the reports are pointing out that diesels are more expensive to buy, maintain and run over a number of years if your mileage is below 11,000miles pa..

Whether you prefer the way a petrol/diesel drives is irrelevant to this. I dont really see why diesel owners read this and feel the need to justify buying a diesel!

Closet petrolheads no doubt
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      07-19-2012, 02:22 PM   #41
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Most objections to the article were focused around the fact the article compares completely different engines.

I think comparisons should be made on the actual power/torque output of the engine and its efficiency.

Claiming that diesels are bad for fuel saving because the mpg figures of an 87ps petrol engine are close to that of a 160ps diesel engine is utterly retarded.
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      07-19-2012, 03:00 PM   #42
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Really?

528i (240bhp)
530d (245bhp)

Sharan 1.4tsi (150bhp)
Sharan 2.0tdi (140bhp)

Astra 1.4t (138bhp)
Astra 2.0cdti (160bhp)

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Fiesta 1.6 tdi (90bhp)
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      07-19-2012, 03:07 PM   #43
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I am a petrol head, for me that means loves cars whether petrol or Denzil.


There has only been ONE Denzil that does it for me and that I would own (again)

The MIGHTY 335d!
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      07-19-2012, 03:29 PM   #44
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everyone seems to think you buy a diesel to save money, have to admit having a car that will do 10mpg more than the petrol equivelant is a bonus but for me its all about the effortless performance due to the massive torque. ive also found that diesel cars tend to easily make the claimed mpg figure whereas a petrol car struggles to get anywhere near it. i have a 330i and a 335d and regardless of the economy id take the d everytime.
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