E90Post
 


European Auto Source
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > Off-Topic Discussions Board > Gun possession. yes or no?



Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      07-21-2012, 10:41 AM   #1
panicos81
Colonel
panicos81's Avatar
Cyprus
65
Rep
2,317
Posts

 
Drives: a white bmw
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Cyprus

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2010 BMW E92  [4.27]
2007 e90  [0.00]
Gun possession. yes or no?

i know this might angry some coming from a non American that doesnt know the situation/culture in the U.S, but looking at the events last yesterday with the Aurora killings i thought i may ask.
dont you find that being able to buy guns and ammo freely, i mean this guy bought a lot of ammo and guns all legal, is damaging to the society? wouldnt gun control assist in reducing crime? someone might argue that "the bad guys" would still find guns, which is true. But it will also prevent events like someones gets angry at their teacher and then takes a gun killing people in schools and such.

i would like to here your point of view on this? Should gun pocession be illegal? why? why not?
__________________
Appreciate 0
      07-21-2012, 10:52 AM   #2
Rodzilla
Lieutenant
Rodzilla's Avatar
United_States
11
Rep
410
Posts

 
Drives: 2008 Montego Blue 135i
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Miami, FL

iTrader: (5)

Garage List
2008 BMW 135i  [0.00]
Send a message via Yahoo to Rodzilla
There is gun control in the way, that you need to take certain steps in acquiring a gun. Depends on the state. I told my buddy who live in Texas, that that would never happen there because every in that state is pretty much armed.
__________________
There are no impossible deeds, only incapable men.

Eibach frontsway,BMS JB4,AFE Drop InBerk Street Axleback, H&R SPORT SPRINGS,Active Autowerke DP's ,Active Autowerke BOV,Active Autowerke FMIC , BMWPEDALS.COM, JB SPEED Black Grills,Alpina B3 TCU Flash
Appreciate 0
      07-21-2012, 11:26 AM   #3
.b0link
Private First Class
3
Rep
170
Posts

 
Drives: 2012 LMB 135i
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Rota, Spain

iTrader: (1)

What does gun control matter when we have our government feeding US guns to the bad guys in Mexico?

I'm a huge gun enthusiast but will be the first to say that this country is fucked and in a steep downward slope at the moment.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      07-21-2012, 11:30 AM   #4
Augenbrauezug
Captain
Augenbrauezug's Avatar
16
Rep
657
Posts

 
Drives: mk6 GTI
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Denton

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by panicos81 View Post
i know this might angry some coming from a non American that doesnt know the situation/culture in the U.S, but looking at the events last yesterday with the Aurora killings i thought i may ask.
dont you find that being able to buy guns and ammo freely, i mean this guy bought a lot of ammo and guns all legal, is damaging to the society? wouldnt gun control assist in reducing crime? someone might argue that "the bad guys" would still find guns, which is true. But it will also prevent events like someones gets angry at their teacher and then takes a gun killing people in schools and such.

i would like to here your point of view on this? Should gun pocession be illegal? why? why not?
Gun "possession", should be totally legal. As you already said, people who need a gun to commit a crime; will get a gun to commit the crime. Someone who needs to protect them self, won't be able to.

Every time there is an event like this, this question is always brought up. The same way after 9-11 you could argue that planes should be illegal. Or after that driver in Brazil ran over countless bikers who were in his way, that cars should be illegal.

There will always be bad people in the world, criminalizing guns is not an effective way to stop them.
__________________
Bimmer-less ATM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayKay335i View Post
Straight PIITB. Then eat dumplings.
Appreciate 0
      07-21-2012, 11:31 AM   #5
48Laws
Captain
10
Rep
607
Posts

 
Drives: '11 M3
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: East Coast

iTrader: (0)

"Gun control means using both hands in my land...."

De La Soul -"Stakes is High"
Appreciate 0
      07-21-2012, 11:34 AM   #6
panicos81
Colonel
panicos81's Avatar
Cyprus
65
Rep
2,317
Posts

 
Drives: a white bmw
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Cyprus

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2010 BMW E92  [4.27]
2007 e90  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Augenbrauezug View Post
Gun "possession", should be totally legal. As you already said, people who need a gun to commit a crime; will get a gun to commit the crime. Someone who needs to protect them self, won't be able to.

Every time there is an event like this, this question is always brought up. The same way after 9-11 you could argue that planes should be illegal. Or after that driver in Brazil ran over countless bikers who were in his way, that cars should be illegal.

There will always be bad people in the world, criminalizing guns is not an effective way to stop them.
yes but outlaws like gangs etc mostly turn on each other, they dont usually kill innocent people. they will find guns yes. but mentally unstable, kids whick their teacher gave them bad grades, un upset employee who just lost his job and lost it will not be able to find guns, at least as easy as now..
__________________
Appreciate 0
      07-21-2012, 11:44 AM   #7
.b0link
Private First Class
3
Rep
170
Posts

 
Drives: 2012 LMB 135i
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Rota, Spain

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by panicos81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Augenbrauezug View Post
Gun "possession", should be totally legal. As you already said, people who need a gun to commit a crime; will get a gun to commit the crime. Someone who needs to protect them self, won't be able to.

Every time there is an event like this, this question is always brought up. The same way after 9-11 you could argue that planes should be illegal. Or after that driver in Brazil ran over countless bikers who were in his way, that cars should be illegal.

There will always be bad people in the world, criminalizing guns is not an effective way to stop them.
yes but outlaws like gangs etc mostly turn on each other, they dont usually kill innocent people. they will find guns yes. but mentally unstable, kids whick their teacher gave them bad grades, un upset employee who just lost his job and lost it will not be able to find guns, at least as easy as now..
No one innocent gets killed? Evidently you haven't been paying attention to what is going on with the Mexican cartels on both sides of the border.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      07-21-2012, 11:53 AM   #8
Augenbrauezug
Captain
Augenbrauezug's Avatar
16
Rep
657
Posts

 
Drives: mk6 GTI
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Denton

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by panicos81 View Post
yes but outlaws like gangs etc mostly turn on each other, they dont usually kill innocent people. they will find guns yes. but mentally unstable, kids whick their teacher gave them bad grades, un upset employee who just lost his job and lost it will not be able to find guns, at least as easy as now..
I agree with what you're saying; however instances in which upset students or employees go into their work or school and start shooting people, are pretty rare. One isolated incident, while horrific, doesn't justify a massive rethink of gun control laws. Living in Texas, I've been shooting guns my entire life. It's a past time for me and my family and friends. I know many people who conceal carry, and it makes me feel safer to know that people are allowed, by law, to carry a concealed weapon. It might seem counter intuitive. I worked at a gas station years ago that had a sign on the front glass that said something like, "We encourage those with a CHL, [concealed handgun license] to carry in the store."

I don't know a lot about Colorado gun laws, but I know that they are pretty liberal about it. I assume, like Texas, they have background checks before you are able to obtain the weapon. In the case of the Aurora shooting, there were little precautionary steps that could of been taken. The shooter had no criminal record, in either California or Colorado.
__________________
Bimmer-less ATM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayKay335i View Post
Straight PIITB. Then eat dumplings.
Appreciate 0
      07-21-2012, 12:05 PM   #9
immiketoo
Colonel
immiketoo's Avatar
71
Rep
2,873
Posts

 
Drives: Smoothly
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Chicago Burbs

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by panicos81 View Post
yes but outlaws like gangs etc mostly turn on each other, they dont usually kill innocent people. they will find guns yes. but mentally unstable, kids whick their teacher gave them bad grades, un upset employee who just lost his job and lost it will not be able to find guns, at least as easy as now..
People like to think that the human race is so far evolved that violence is only due to the fact that guns make it easier to kill. But, if guns were magically removed to the earth, humans would still find a way to kill each other.

If an outraged student or coworker really wants to cause problems, and guns are gone, I think people will turn back to poison or explosives for mass murders. It really wouldn't be hard considering mass transit, sporting events and the like, so your question is a moot point. Guns are only the mechanism. People are the cause of the deaths.

When swords were the most effective weapon, everyone carried one for self protection, duels etc. The only difference is after killing about five people on a rampage you'd get tired and maybe have to stop for a bit, thereby allowing everyone else to stab you back or flee.

If someone started killing people with Bic pens, (Yes its possible) would you rush in to ban the pen? What about the compound bow? Good range, decent rate of fire if you train hard enough? Should bows be illegal?

These arguments always come up after a man caused event such as this because people are scared. Unfortunately, fear and the lack of perception of events as they are unfolding cause far more deaths than might otherwise have happened in any particular event. If a single, well trained person had been in that theater, I expect the whole thing would have been minimized.

As I said, people are the problem. Not guns.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by double eagle View Post
Thickness feels good to me and my hands aren't that big.
Appreciate 0
      07-21-2012, 12:10 PM   #10
Cdnrockies
Banned
Canada
18
Rep
1,113
Posts

 
Drives: BMW's
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Calgary

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by immiketoo View Post
As I said, American people are the problem. Not guns.
Fixed for accuracy.

This discussion goes round and round every time that there is a tragic/horrifying incident like this one. Problem is that it happens far more frequently in the USA than anywhere else in the world. Not saying it doesn't happen elsewhere (we have an ongoing gang war in Toronto right now), but our American friends have to realize at some point that this issue is unique to their society.
Appreciate 0
      07-21-2012, 12:15 PM   #11
panicos81
Colonel
panicos81's Avatar
Cyprus
65
Rep
2,317
Posts

 
Drives: a white bmw
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Cyprus

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2010 BMW E92  [4.27]
2007 e90  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Augenbrauezug View Post
I agree with what you're saying; however instances in which upset students or employees go into their work or school and start shooting people, are pretty rare. One isolated incident, while horrific, doesn't justify a massive rethink of gun control laws. Living in Texas, I've been shooting guns my entire life. It's a past time for me and my family and friends. I know many people who conceal carry, and it makes me feel safer to know that people are allowed, by law, to carry a concealed weapon. It might seem counter intuitive. I worked at a gas station years ago that had a sign on the front glass that said something like, "We encourage those with a CHL, [concealed handgun license] to carry in the store."

I don't know a lot about Colorado gun laws, but I know that they are pretty liberal about it. I assume, like Texas, they have background checks before you are able to obtain the weapon. In the case of the Aurora shooting, there were little precautionary steps that could of been taken. The shooter had no criminal record, in either California or Colorado.

i agree to a certain degree.

i live in an occupied country, we are not exactly at a state of war, but we all have guns and ammo at home provided to us by the army in case something happens. also people here like to go hunting. so we also have guns for that as well. but we are not allowed to have hand guns. so we cannot go anywhere with a concealed weapon.. we never had an incident like that (then again we are a small country) but we often have incidents between criminals "handling their business". innocents law abiding citizens rarely get killed.
my thinking is that since hand guns are allowed, and people are allowed to buy them freely, allows people to "derail" more often.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      07-21-2012, 12:16 PM   #12
Augenbrauezug
Captain
Augenbrauezug's Avatar
16
Rep
657
Posts

 
Drives: mk6 GTI
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Denton

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdnrockies View Post
Fixed for accuracy.

This discussion goes round and round every time that there is a tragic/horrifying incident like this one. Problem is that it happens far more frequently in the USA than anywhere else in the world. Not saying it doesn't happen elsewhere (we have an ongoing gang war in Toronto right now), but our American friends have to realize at some point that this issue is unique to their society.
__________________
Bimmer-less ATM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayKay335i View Post
Straight PIITB. Then eat dumplings.
Appreciate 0
      07-21-2012, 12:26 PM   #13
immiketoo
Colonel
immiketoo's Avatar
71
Rep
2,873
Posts

 
Drives: Smoothly
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Chicago Burbs

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdnrockies View Post
Fixed for accuracy.

This discussion goes round and round every time that there is a tragic/horrifying incident like this one. Problem is that it happens far more frequently in the USA than anywhere else in the world. Not saying it doesn't happen elsewhere (we have an ongoing gang war in Toronto right now), but our American friends have to realize at some point that this issue is unique to their society.
Quote:
Originally Posted by panicos81 View Post
i agree to a certain degree.

i live in an occupied country, we are not exactly at a state of war, but we all have guns and ammo at home provided to us by the army in case something happens. also people here like to go hunting. so we also have guns for that as well. but we are not allowed to have hand guns. so we cannot go anywhere with a concealed weapon.. we never had an incident like that (then again we are a small country) but we often have incidents between criminals "handling their business". innocents law abiding citizens rarely get killed.
my thinking is that since hand guns are allowed, and people are allowed to buy them freely, allows people to "derail" more often.
I respectfully agree and disagree here. Our gun culture has to contribute on some level, but if you look at events in history, almost all cultures have documented histories of violence. Vikings, Nazi Germany, the list goes on. The mechanism changes but the causal factors and the end results are the same.

The big issue with our culture isn't guns, its the entitlement mentality and the general immaturity of people, thrown together with the incredibly intense societal demand to be special that fucks people over. In our schools right now, everyone wins a prize for participating. People who are actually good at something have their achievements minimized. Its not until later, when reality kicks in that mediocre people realize that not everyone gets the hot girl, the good paying job and the fame that things start to go wrong. Now, we have some seriously pissed off people that think the world owes them everything whom are completely ill-equipped to deal with their pathetic realities.

This is where the problem arises. So, I agree that it might be American people, but I still say that its not the gun's fault.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by double eagle View Post
Thickness feels good to me and my hands aren't that big.
Appreciate 0
      07-21-2012, 12:28 PM   #14
Cdnrockies
Banned
Canada
18
Rep
1,113
Posts

 
Drives: BMW's
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Calgary

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Augenbrauezug View Post
Fair enough....should have stated western, civilized society. If you choose to benchmark your country against some of the more "chaotic" nations of the world, that is your perogative.

We are also discussing gun homicides but I have also included homicides in the relevant western societies.
Attached Images
  
Appreciate 0
      07-21-2012, 12:35 PM   #15
Cdnrockies
Banned
Canada
18
Rep
1,113
Posts

 
Drives: BMW's
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Calgary

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by immiketoo View Post
This is where the problem arises. So, I agree that it might be American people, but I still say that its not the gun's fault.
Good post Mike.

I understand what your take is on the guns....especially considering your line of work, but I do have to wonder if it would make a difference if there were much more strict controls in place. There is no easy answer or clear causality associated with these tragic gun massacres. Finding a way to keep your people safe from these events, one way or another, would sure be beneficial.
Appreciate 0
      07-21-2012, 12:45 PM   #16
immiketoo
Colonel
immiketoo's Avatar
71
Rep
2,873
Posts

 
Drives: Smoothly
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Chicago Burbs

iTrader: (0)

CDRockies, Looking at your stats, its pretty easy to ignore some of the glaring issues with that chart. First, you have to consider overall population. That is not a percentage so the numbers are going to be larger generally per population. Excepting Germany, where their culture is so vastly different than ours.

Next, you have to consider the source of those stats. If you look at major sources of homicides, cities like Chicago, Detroit etc, you will see that the vast majority of the homicides are committed by undereducated inner city dwellers that completely skew the curve.

Combine those mass population centers with the types of people committing the crimes and you get your stats.

Lastly, you might think in my line of work I'd be all for less guns, but as I said, its not gun that are killing people.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by double eagle View Post
Thickness feels good to me and my hands aren't that big.

Last edited by immiketoo; 07-21-2012 at 01:07 PM.
Appreciate 0
      07-21-2012, 12:58 PM   #17
48Laws
Captain
10
Rep
607
Posts

 
Drives: '11 M3
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: East Coast

iTrader: (0)

This a cultural issue. Period. We fix problems with guns. As a former active duty person, i think my opinion holds a bit weight. There are inherent risks with guns. You ban them, and criminals will still be armed. You allow law abiding citizens to be armed freely, and once in awhile they'll snap or use poor judgement. Welcome to GunLand.
Appreciate 0
      07-21-2012, 01:00 PM   #18
Bakeme521
Some say...
Bakeme521's Avatar
United_States
81
Rep
4,272
Posts

 
Drives: Fresh
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Baton Rouge n NOLA

iTrader: (12)

Garage List
2007 BMW 335i  [4.04]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdnrockies View Post
Good post Mike.

I understand what your take is on the guns....especially considering your line of work, but I do have to wonder if it would make a difference if there were much more strict controls in place. There is no easy answer or clear causality associated with these tragic gun massacres. Finding a way to keep your people safe from these events, one way or another, would sure be beneficial.
I don't think it will make a difference bc in the end the messed up sick people in this world will still find a way to beat the gun control system and get there hands on the guns whether it be legal or illegal. In the end I believe there a lot more sane people in the world than sick people so if people are free to carry weapons as they please, statistically there will be more people on the good side of the law with weapons ready to protect themselves and loved ones. I just feel that with gun control, the sane people will follow the laws and will not have guns, and the sick people will break it and have them anyway, which in the end will make the situation worse.

Just my $.02
__________________

I have exhaust and an intake...
Appreciate 0
      07-21-2012, 01:02 PM   #19
Cdnrockies
Banned
Canada
18
Rep
1,113
Posts

 
Drives: BMW's
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Calgary

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by immiketoo View Post
CDRockies, Looking at your stats, its pretty easy to ignore some of the glaring issues with that chart. First, you have to consider overall population. That is not a percentage so the numbers are going to be larger generally per population. Excepting Germany, where their culture is so vastly different than ours.
Actually, those stats are normalized by percentage. First number is total guns. Second column is number of guns per 100 people. Third column is intentional gun homicides per 1 million people. The only country that is even in the ballpark of the US is Mexico and we all know the gong show that is going on their at the moment with the cartels.

Quote:
Next, you have to consider the source of those stats. If you look at major sources of homicides, cities like Chicago, Detroit etc, you will see that the vast majority of the homicides are committed by undereducated inner city dwellers that completely skew the curve.

Combine those mass population centers with the types of people committing the crimes and you get your stats.
I think you're probably right if you're talking about the overall statistic. However, if we're still talking about yesterdays massacre, this kid, the Fort Hood shooter, or the Columbine kids did not fit that mold. In fact, they were all polar opposites who committed some of the most heinous massacres in US history.

Quote:
Lastly, you think in my line of work I'd be all for less guns, but as I said, its not gun that are killing people.
I actually didn't think that.

Your respect for the process, responsible education of their use, and your diligence in upholding the laws that you swore to protect all point to you supporting the Constitution and the right to bear arms.
Appreciate 0
      07-21-2012, 01:07 PM   #20
!JGunz_325
Private
1
Rep
70
Posts

 
Drives: AW 325i Sport
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Miami, FL

iTrader: (0)

"If guns kill people, then...
Pencils mispell words
Cars make people drive drunk
Spoons made Rosie O'Donnell fat."
Appreciate 0
      07-21-2012, 01:15 PM   #21
Cdnrockies
Banned
Canada
18
Rep
1,113
Posts

 
Drives: BMW's
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Calgary

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakeme521 View Post
I don't think it will make a difference bc in the end the messed up sick people in this world will still find a way to beat the gun control system and get there hands on the guns whether it be legal or illegal. In the end I believe there a lot more sane people in the world than sick people so if people are free to carry weapons as they please, statistically there will be more people on the good side of the law with weapons ready to protect themselves and loved ones. I just feel that with gun control, the sane people will follow the laws and will not have guns, and the sick people will break it and have them anyway, which in the end will make the situation worse.

Just my $.02
I would assume that this is a thought shared with millions of other Americans. It would be the only way that many could sleep at night after horrific events like Aurora.
Appreciate 0
      07-21-2012, 01:16 PM   #22
immiketoo
Colonel
immiketoo's Avatar
71
Rep
2,873
Posts

 
Drives: Smoothly
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Chicago Burbs

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdnrockies View Post
Actually, those stats are normalized by percentage. First number is total guns. Second column is number of guns per 100 people. Third column is intentional gun homicides per 1 million people. The only country that is even in the ballpark of the US is Mexico and we all know the gong show that is going on their at the moment with the cartels.



I think you're probably right if you're talking about the overall statistic. However, if we're still talking about yesterdays massacre, this kid, the Fort Hood shooter, or the Columbine kids did not fit that mold. In fact, they were all polar opposites who committed some of the most heinous massacres in US history.

Totally correct. There are always, and have always been people who are anomalies. This speaks to my earlier theory about our culture.


I actually didn't think that.

Your respect for the process, responsible education of their use, and your diligence in upholding the laws that you swore to protect all point to you supporting the Constitution and the right to bear arms.
Sorry, typo on my part. There was supposed to be a might in there. Which I have fixed.

Regardless of the cause of Friday's events, tragic as they are, I do support our constitutional rights. Even when they make my job harder. Or I don't get my way. The alternative is frightening. This is a classic example of don't let one bad apple spoil he bunch. Of course, I wonder how I'd feel if this had happened closer to home?

You hit it on the head earlier when you said finding a way to keep people safe is the answer. Would one armed, trained, motivated citizen in that theater changed the outcome? Should we institute TSA like screening processes wherever people gather? Mind control? Gun bans? Each of these has their downfalls.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by double eagle View Post
Thickness feels good to me and my hands aren't that big.
Appreciate 0
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:19 AM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST