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      08-20-2012, 05:50 PM   #89
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I guess understanding is in the eye of the beholder.


BTW. Apple became the most valuable company in the world today.
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      08-20-2012, 06:04 PM   #90
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      08-20-2012, 07:41 PM   #91
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A pet peeve of mine is when people compare Mac to PC. Mac is PC. If they mean OSX vs Windows, that's fine. I never got those retarded apple commercials about mac vs pc (pretty much point out problems in one system and ignore theirs). Even if they were talking about hardware, Apple had already switched to x86 (but powerpc was, as the name implies, a personal computer architecture).

I'm a full time linux user, since it's just easier to work this way (web applications). Windows is for games, and I don't play games anymore.

As for OSX, I'd choose it over windows without hesitation, since it's a bsd/unix derivative and similar to linux. I don't particularly like the business ethics of apple or microsoft (apple seems to be as "evil" as can be, or as capitalist as can be depending on how you want to interpret that). Steve Jobs was a marketing genius though, and the fanatical, irrational loyalism and religious devotion of many of its consumers is proof of that.

Mac's are overpriced, but you do get quality parts. You could get quality parts by not buying the cheapest versions of OEM Dell, HP, etc, and instead get the business or higher end stuff. It still will be cheaper than a Mac. You could also install OSX and linux on them (some OEM machines are better suited than others for OSX hackintosh's).

A lot of having a mac is a fashion/status statement, and there are a lot of people that buy them for that purpose. I know people who use them for functionality and things they like about the software, and I support their use of it because it's rational. If you genuinely like it and aren't buying because it's some kind of statement or perceived superiority, then choose the mac if it's worth the extra cost to you. Otherwise get something else that you like.

I've been using linux for a decade or so, but more and more in the past 6 years, and then full time in the past 2 years. The more I use it, the more I cannot even tolerate windows (they have to obfuscate everything and make it impossible to perform anything in a manual or advanced way).
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      08-20-2012, 09:25 PM   #92
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      08-20-2012, 11:29 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fourier View Post
A pet peeve of mine is when people compare Mac to PC. Mac is PC. If they mean OSX vs Windows, that's fine. I never got those retarded apple commercials about mac vs pc (pretty much point out problems in one system and ignore theirs). Even if they were talking about hardware, Apple had already switched to x86 (but powerpc was, as the name implies, a personal computer architecture).

I'm a full time linux user, since it's just easier to work this way (web applications). Windows is for games, and I don't play games anymore.

As for OSX, I'd choose it over windows without hesitation, since it's a bsd/unix derivative and similar to linux. I don't particularly like the business ethics of apple or microsoft (apple seems to be as "evil" as can be, or as capitalist as can be depending on how you want to interpret that). Steve Jobs was a marketing genius though, and the fanatical, irrational loyalism and religious devotion of many of its consumers is proof of that.

Mac's are overpriced, but you do get quality parts. You could get quality parts by not buying the cheapest versions of OEM Dell, HP, etc, and instead get the business or higher end stuff. It still will be cheaper than a Mac. You could also install OSX and linux on them (some OEM machines are better suited than others for OSX hackintosh's).

A lot of having a mac is a fashion/status statement, and there are a lot of people that buy them for that purpose. I know people who use them for functionality and things they like about the software, and I support their use of it because it's rational. If you genuinely like it and aren't buying because it's some kind of statement or perceived superiority, then choose the mac if it's worth the extra cost to you. Otherwise get something else that you like.

I've been using linux for a decade or so, but more and more in the past 6 years, and then full time in the past 2 years. The more I use it, the more I cannot even tolerate windows (they have to obfuscate everything and make it impossible to perform anything in a manual or advanced way).
Curious, what Linux distro do you run? I have a couple of Ubuntu workstations at work and laptop, used for work related stuff because it works so well out of the box with Windows enviornments and has most of the apps I prefer to use preinstalled. One thing I cannot stand though is Unity, I hate it! I've switched to Cinnamon which is a lot better but it still isn't a mature GUI yet IMO. Also, the one thing I wish Linux had is more robust support for drivers and installing software that are not in any repos.
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      08-21-2012, 05:32 AM   #94
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I agree with everything you said. That's the tradeoff, Mac's are stable because Apple governs them but in turn there's less supported hardware and apps for them. PC's however tend to have more issues because there's more hardware available for them as well as apps that are not governed by Microsoft.
+1
which is why Mac will never over run the PC
I can custom build my PC to suit the needs of the specific computer
I can't build a media server PC, I can't build a back up PC, forget servers to manage all my computers at home
They all basically are the same 3,000$ machines that I need to customize with software, whereas I can customize a PC with hardware and software (and use hand my downs from my gaming rig for upgrades).

1) on board GPU is fine for my work PC (money saved)
2) 4x2TB hard drives (with possible expandable SATA slots through PCI slots) for my Media server and a video card that outputs HDMI
3) full on nerdgasm PC for my gaming needs (still cheaper than one mac pro)
4) PC built fully from hand me downs from gaming rig for back ups

4 PCs, custom built for their specific task at the price of slightly more than one mac pro.

Spare parts are easier to find and the PC never becomes a paper weight.
Currently, if my PC can't run a game on high, I most likely need to just change my video card
if it is slowing down when I load too many emails? add RAM...

edit: I've never had stability issues since Windows XP on any of the 4 machines.
Just don't follow links in pop-ups.. :/
Internet Explorer did not just discover 15 new viruses and you did not win 1,000,000$ for visiting a website.... :/
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      08-21-2012, 09:23 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Comet View Post
+1
which is why Mac will never over run the PC
I can custom build my PC to suit the needs of the specific computer
I can't build a media server PC, I can't build a back up PC, forget servers to manage all my computers at home
They all basically are the same 3,000$ machines that I need to customize with software, whereas I can customize a PC with hardware and software (and use hand my downs from my gaming rig for upgrades).

1) on board GPU is fine for my work PC (money saved)
2) 4x2TB hard drives (with possible expandable SATA slots through PCI slots) for my Media server and a video card that outputs HDMI
3) full on nerdgasm PC for my gaming needs (still cheaper than one mac pro)
4) PC built fully from hand me downs from gaming rig for back ups

4 PCs, custom built for their specific task at the price of slightly more than one mac pro.

Spare parts are easier to find and the PC never becomes a paper weight.
Currently, if my PC can't run a game on high, I most likely need to just change my video card
if it is slowing down when I load too many emails? add RAM...

edit: I've never had stability issues since Windows XP on any of the 4 machines.
Just don't follow links in pop-ups.. :/
Internet Explorer did not just discover 15 new viruses and you did not win 1,000,000$ for visiting a website.... :/
+1000
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      08-21-2012, 10:21 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tag View Post
I agree with everything you said. That's the tradeoff, Mac's are stable because Apple governs them but in turn there's less supported hardware and apps for them. PC's however tend to have more issues because there's more hardware available for them as well as apps that are not governed by Microsoft.
...So what you are saying is that the MS system IS the reason for viruses and malware, etc? You are saying conflicting things now. You say it is not MS fault, then you say that Apple doesn't have it due to HOW the build and control their system. Therefore MS lack of controls (easy of customization) is the reason for the issues.

I mean, we can't expect people to be smart enough to use common sense. Have you seen a product of any kind WITHOUT a warning label lately? People are stupid. Apple realizes this and makes their system so that it is better for the average user. Like I said in the first place. The above average user CAN make a PC work as well for less money, but not an average user.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Comet View Post
edit: I've never had stability issues since Windows XP on any of the 4 machines.
Just don't follow links in pop-ups.. :/
Internet Explorer did not just discover 15 new viruses and you did not win 1,000,000$ for visiting a website.... :/
Again, talking about the average or below average user (by definition over 50% of users). They are just not smart enough to understand and catch all of those things.
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      08-21-2012, 11:07 AM   #97
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Dont let tag troll you guys. Mac can do anything a PC can do faster, with more stability and a cleaner, more user friendly UI. Simply put, mac dominates the laptop world for a reason. Tag is a wanna be script kiddie.
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      08-21-2012, 11:13 AM   #98
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...So what you are saying is that the MS system IS the reason for viruses and malware, etc? You are saying conflicting things now. You say it is not MS fault, then you say that Apple doesn't have it due to HOW the build and control their system. Therefore MS lack of controls (easy of customization) is the reason for the issues.
I dont think he is conflicting his words.

It is simply a trade off. Risk vs reward. Etc.

By nature Microsoft is a more "open" platform. That will always invite its own host of problems, yet also much more possibilities for customization, etc.

Apple, with closed design, is more restrictive, with the tradeoff being that you lose customizability to an extent, the expansive library of software, yet gain a generally very stable, reliable platform.

Thats really all there is to it. This isn't about processing power, or interface (necessarily) or anything else. Its just...pick a side. What suits your needs better. You can argue and counterargue about price/hardware/whatever all day long but when it comes down to it, that is the only real difference.


Quick note on the whole price thing. Yes Macs are expensive. And YES there are TONS of clueless people who run Mac because it is pretty, or hip, or has the best selection of aftermarket designer cases. The price was a hard pill for me to swallow. Initially. Fell in love with it quickly though and sucked it up.

Then, when i got bored with my 13"MBP after 1 and a half years, and wanted to upgrade I sold it for 750 dollars. Around 70% of what I paid originally. Yes, that might be due to the Vanity crowd that sees the Mac as an object of status, but in ANY case, I dare you to find another laptop you can get a 70% return on after 1.5 years.

Not a point on Mac being "better" but just an observation I have made. The resale value has allowed me to upgrade almost yearly.
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      08-21-2012, 11:19 AM   #99
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Oh, I sold my 2006 15" MBP in 2011 for $512. Good point, almost forgot about resale.

Got my 13" MBA for around $1300, should last me at least 4 years.
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      08-21-2012, 12:27 PM   #100
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Quote:
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...So what you are saying is that the MS system IS the reason for viruses and malware, etc?
It's not MS, it's vendors putting out shitty drivers OR you getting yourself infected because you are careless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye View Post
You are saying conflicting things now. You say it is not MS fault, then you say that Apple doesn't have it due to HOW the build and control their system. Therefore MS lack of controls (easy of customization) is the reason for the issues.
Get a Mac and be limited with to only a few models, fewer apps and cost more. With that you can click on whatever you're heart desires and not worry about 90% of the viruses out there that only infect PC's. You do however still have viruses for Macs so a slight word of caution.

OR

Get a PC with numerous models to suit your needs or build one yourself. With that comes tons of apps that dwarf what runs on Mac's, PC's are cheaper price and highly customizable. If you go this route you need to stop being a clickity clicker, take some time to know what you're doing. READ Windows warnings that pop up and know the difference between that and a web page generated warning that tricks you. As long as you're mindful of what you're doing you'll be just fine.
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      08-21-2012, 12:28 PM   #101
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Dont let tag troll you guys. Mac can do anything a PC can do faster, with more stability and a cleaner, more user friendly UI. Simply put, mac dominates the laptop world for a reason. Tag is a wanna be script kiddie.
Rob, shush it you reverse troller. You brag about custom PC's you build all the time.
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      08-21-2012, 12:37 PM   #102
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Addressing exploits and vulnerabilities:

M$ >>>>>> Mac

No doubt about it. And it's quite a large margin. Like stock Honda Fit versus stock ZR-1 in the 1320...
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      08-21-2012, 03:29 PM   #103
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Have you 'anti-mac' folks ever used a mac for more then 5 minutes at the Apple store?
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      08-21-2012, 03:36 PM   #104
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Have you 'anti-mac' folks ever used a mac for more then 5 minutes at the Apple store?
gf has them. MB Air and MB Pro.

Hate them. Vile little things.

My elite book has more power, ram, HD space than her pro for a fraction of the price.
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      08-21-2012, 03:44 PM   #105
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Have you 'anti-mac' folks ever used a mac for more then 5 minutes at the Apple store?
I've said I like Mac's and have no problem with them, just that they're not for me. Most Mac users on the other hand 9x out of 10x have no idea what they are talking about and think anything that's not a Mac sucks.

Typical Mac User:
OMG, I checked my email on a PC the other day and now I think I got a virus on my Mac.
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      08-21-2012, 04:20 PM   #106
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gf has them. MB Air and MB Pro.

Hate them. Vile little things.

My elite book has more power, ram, HD space than her pro for a fraction of the price.
youre missing the point.
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      08-21-2012, 04:30 PM   #107
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I've said I like Mac's and have no problem with them, just that they're not for me. Most Mac users on the other hand 9x out of 10x have no idea what they are talking about and think anything that's not a Mac sucks.

Typical Mac User:
OMG, I checked my email on a PC the other day and now I think I got a virus on my Mac.
That's exactly the point. People have different needs/wants = different computers. After using Windows ever since I was a kid, I've only converted to the Mac side 2 years ago, yet I enjoy every bit of it.

Yes, it is a closed system, but this is something that I prefer over PC. Apple has developed a full ecosystem for ALL of their products (Mac OSX + iOS play very well together) that I much prefer (set it and forget it). I used to be in the PC camp where I can customize to my liking, but recently I just want a machine and not worry about any of those things. Everything that I do with my iphone, ipad, and mac is very well integrated that I don't worry about compatibility issues.

Do I game? No. Most intensive stuff that I do is dealing with digital photography. The Mac side is well suited for my tastes. Not only that, their products are extremely well made from an industrial design standpoint. Expensive? Of course, but in my perspective it is well worth my money.

As for PC? I never had an issue with. I loved XP and after using my gf's laptop for a little bit (win 7) I wouldn't have an issue with the current OS either (extremely stable). I really don't get fanboys arguing over which one is better since both sides have different appeals to different people.

That being said about the whole ecosystem thing, I'm extremely excited over Windows 8. Pushing for a compatible PC OS + mobile OS can only be a good thing for Microsoft. If there is any company that can compete with OSX/iOS it is Windows 8. Sorry, not an Android fan here.
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      08-21-2012, 04:45 PM   #108
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I think, in general, macs are an overall better "deal". A lot of people say macs are overpriced, and in some cases they are. In others, they aren't. I recently sold my 2008 Macbook for $400. It cost me 1,200 4 years ago.

Also, I bought my 15 inch retina macbook pro for 2,000 after student discount.

Looking around at every company, I could not find any laptop that was better overall.

The razer blade laptop cost more, and had less processor(although not much).
Sony Vaio Z series cost the same, but the graphics card is separate from the laptop(the Z now comes with a mini tower that has the GPU).

Sure, there were some HP and Dell that cost $1,700 and had similar specs, but they were huge and heavy(wheras mine is super thin and light), or they had horrible battery life.

Also, all the laptops above do not have the retina screen.

I use windows on my mac all the time. I have no problems and love windows 7. I find OSX easier to use in everyday situations, but when I need certain applications for work, then I easily and happily switch to windows via bootcamp.

I think it can be summed up as same things as cars, especially BMWS. Other car owners love to brag how they paid 1/2 the price for similar performance to a BMW. Sure, the performance can be had for cheaper or better(like a mustang), but in the end it comes down to personal preference !
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      08-21-2012, 04:49 PM   #109
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That's exactly the point. People have different needs/wants = different computers. After using Windows ever since I was a kid, I've only converted to the Mac side 2 years ago, yet I enjoy every bit of it.

Yes, it is a closed system, but this is something that I prefer over PC. Apple has developed a full ecosystem for ALL of their products (Mac OSX + iOS play very well together) that I much prefer (set it and forget it). I used to be in the PC camp where I can customize to my liking, but recently I just want a machine and not worry about any of those things. Everything that I do with my iphone, ipad, and mac is very well integrated that I don't worry about compatibility issues.

Do I game? No. Most intensive stuff that I do is dealing with digital photography. The Mac side is well suited for my tastes. Not only that, their products are extremely well made from an industrial design standpoint. Expensive? Of course, but in my perspective it is well worth my money.

As for PC? I never had an issue with. I loved XP and after using my gf's laptop for a little bit (win 7) I wouldn't have an issue with the current OS either (extremely stable). I really don't get fanboys arguing over which one is better since both sides have different appeals to different people.

That being said about the whole ecosystem thing, I'm extremely excited over Windows 8. Pushing for a compatible PC OS + mobile OS can only be a good thing for Microsoft. If there is any company that can compete with OSX/iOS it is Windows 8. Sorry, not an Android fan here.
I hear ya and it's refreshing to hear a Mac user that doesn't hate or think PC's suck. As far as quality, it's true that Mac's are built well. On the other hand as someone pointed out before you get the same level of quality from high end or business computers. I personally use nothing but Thinkpad's as my laptop. They are powerful, and just truck.

It's all the same hardware. Mac's are PC's! They have the same Intel processors, the same memory, hard drives, audio/video/network cards etc. They are just wrapped in different packages and have a different OS.
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      08-21-2012, 07:25 PM   #110
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youre missing the point.
youre right.....my lappy is no where near as cool.
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