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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > PTF Cobb ProTuned; FBO Pump S2+ [w/ Dyno & Logs]



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      08-22-2012, 07:51 PM   #23
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Pro tuning is the icing on the cake for Cobb, I would suggest everyone with a Cobb to get protuned, your missing out if you stay with the OTS maps.
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      08-22-2012, 08:00 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshboody
What’s with the WG dump in the topend… you can see it in the dyno? I’ll never like the maxed torque below 5k rpm… it’s basically only useful for tranny/clutch stress, spinning tires, and impressing riders. Boost at 5500rpms should be increased if anything to keep your usable avg HP higher. Anyway, disagree with the tuning approach which now seems the standard… copying Cobb. How about actually using ATR, then only slightly changing 2 tables. Glad I can’t get negged here… hehe.

OP, log that mapping on the street… 10deg increase in ambient temps, you’ll see timing dance.

I'd love to review the csv files if you're willing to post them... it's fun, especially with dynos to compare.

EDIT: props on the detailed post and review!
Agreed. I am steadily moving my torque up in the revs too. Almost have it where I like it if we could just figure out that WG dump too. Mine is at 5600.

T
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      08-22-2012, 08:31 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobS View Post
Pro tuning is the icing on the cake for Cobb, I would suggest everyone with a Cobb to get protuned, your missing out if you stay with the OTS maps.
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      08-22-2012, 09:40 PM   #26
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How much e85 are you picking up from Niagara? LOL, I'm hoping it's like a 55 gallon drum.
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      08-23-2012, 05:36 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshboody View Post
Whatís with the WG dump in the topendÖ you can see it in the dyno? Iíll never like the maxed torque below 5k rpmÖ itís basically only useful for tranny/clutch stress, spinning tires, and impressing riders. Boost at 5500rpms should be increased if anything to keep your usable avg HP higher. Anyway, disagree with the tuning approach which now seems the standardÖ copying Cobb. How about actually using ATR, then only slightly changing 2 tables. Glad I canít get negged hereÖ hehe.

OP, log that mapping on the streetÖ 10deg increase in ambient temps, youíll see timing dance.

I'd love to review the csv files if you're willing to post them... it's fun, especially with dynos to compare.

EDIT: props on the detailed post and review!
Not sure. Iíll check if itís still there. Iíve attached the CSV files of the two plots from my original post.

As for using ATR; I could. Iím just not at a point where I feel comfortable making my own maps yet and didnít want to waitÖ Iím sure others can relate.
Attached Files
File Type: txt July 11 3rd Gear Pull S2+a v402.txt (25.7 KB, 51 views)
File Type: txt July 30 3rd Gear Pull2 v402 PTF S2+a.txt (24.6 KB, 52 views)
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      08-23-2012, 05:38 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilma View Post
SERIOUSLY?

You are driving all the way to Niagara

Hope you are taking about 20 gas cans with you.

IF you have room in the trunk can I add mine?
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Originally Posted by Dr. G View Post
How much e85 are you picking up from Niagara? LOL, I'm hoping it's like a 55 gallon drum.
LOL, no its just 30 liters that Dzenno brought over when he went to pick up his valve springs. Havenít decided on a big drum purchase just yet.
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      08-23-2012, 05:54 PM   #29
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Wow great for only a timing adjustment
Why not also up the psi and get the car rocking
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      08-23-2012, 06:12 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitehawk View Post
Not sure. Iíll check if itís still there. Iíve attached the CSV files of the two plots from my original post.

As for using ATR; I could. Iím just not at a point where I feel comfortable making my own maps yet and didnít want to waitÖ Iím sure others can relate.
Cool, logs with dynos... I'll check them out when I get some time.

BTW: my comment about ATR wasn't directed toward you. I should not have said that.
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      08-24-2012, 05:35 PM   #31
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Many of the important channels were not logged. But looks like you are running just fine. As stated before I would be a little concerned of the timing mapping. Unless they added some extra IAT compensation at lowish IATs, you will get timing corrections once IATs increase. The dyno had IATs of 80deg and stock compensation doesn't come on until >109deg. With the aggressive mapping the compensation table should really be altered. If they did this, then great.

DZ laughed at me mentioning the "WG dump", but clearly boost drops at a sharper rate around 6100rpms. Why is this "supposedly" necessary... its not and something that was missed in the tuning. They can smooth out the taper to sustain slightly more HP either in WG or load mapping... looks to be the load curve btw.

And I understand decreasing load in the mid-range, but why 5500rpms... doesn't make much sense to me.

Anyway, that's what I see.

Last edited by Joshboody; 08-24-2012 at 06:41 PM.
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      08-24-2012, 06:44 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tunner???
First off, the channels logged are pretty much defaults of what Cobb provides:

Time,RPM (RPM),Charge Air Temp (∞ F),Accel Ped. Pos. (%),TPS Act. (%),WGDC Bank 1 (%),WGDC Bank 2 (%),Cyl1 Timing Cor (∞),Cyl2 Timing Cor (∞),Cyl3 Timing Cor (∞),Cyl4 Timing Cor (∞),Cyl5 Timing Cor (∞),Cyl6 Timing Cor (∞),Timing Cyl. 1 (∞),Timing Cyl. 2 (∞),Timing Cyl. 3 (∞),Timing Cyl. 4 (∞),Timing Cyl. 5 (∞),Timing Cyl. 6 (∞),Lambda (Bank1) (AFR),Lambda (Bank2) (AFR),Boost (PSI)

1) Which important channels do you feel we needed to monitor? Everything required while watching the dashboard and logging was being logged.

2) You clearly don't understand how corrections work. You're at it again with your lack of knowledge due to lack of experience how things work on this platform. Timing corrections will NOT be applied after going past certain IAT values. Timing will be pulled for safety reasons from the "applied", or targeted if you will, timing that the DME is programmed for. Timing correction tables dictate that and this is probably why you're confused. Per cylinder timing "corrections" as logged are NOT an indicator of IAT induced timing corrections or ECT induced load corrections. We did not and will not touch temperature compensation tables as there is no need to play with that as those are there for a reason from the factory. As I already mentioned before the way to deal with avoiding timing pull or load pull due to temps is to deal with the problem at hand, HEAT. Better oil coolers, radiators, fans, ducting, intake piping insulation, etc and not telling the DME 130+F IAT is just fine to run and not have compensations applied. You can really ruin some healthy motors that way but I guess that's ok in your case. That is the worst piece of "advice" I've heard so far from you to be honest.

3) I'll laugh at you again for bringing it up yet again about the wastegate duty cycle datalog. In fact, we didn't even touch load its running OTS values. The other thing is there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Wastegate duty cycle is used to regulate boost, its part of boost control. If you have a feeling what the DME is doing is wrong to hit certain boost then you should really write a letter to BMW boost control engineers or something. We didn't rewrite boost control on the N54, in fact, didn't even touch it AT all

4) Again, just for you as you clearly missed what I was saying 3 times, his load on the pump gas map is OTS Stage2+agg load. Temperature compensations will move boost up/down depending on weather within limits set in the map. This is called load based tuning vs. absolute boost targeting that your tune which you seem to understand better than Cobb is doing. In that tune of your you'd actually have a higher possibility of timing pull through actual per cylinder timing corrections than with Cobb due to absolute boost targets as in winter you'll still run that 12psi (or is it 14psi) aggressive tune of yours as in summer. Then again, you'll be just fine at 12-14psi. Not like you race the car, its just a grocery getter right?

Cheers bud. Happy trolling.
Hi DZ, I canít post on BB currently.

You sure wrote a lot of stuff.
So you make the timing map more aggressive, but you leave the factor temp compensation in placeÖ hmmm, not good. These logs were at a lowish IAT of 80deg and DME doesnít add comp until >109degÖ I would revisit this.

And about the ďWG dumpĒÖ you can smooth this outÖ itís your job as a tuner (I use the term loosely). why keep factory WG map when you are running more boost then the factory mapping. I donít know if its load target or WG mapping (in nitehawks situation)as the logs didnít have the correct channels for review. But Iíve seen other logs recently that were capped in PID authorityÖ very easy to change if thatís the case here. If itís the load target, which boost setpoint and req load donít necessarily have the same curves, easy to smooth it out.

I like to view logsÖ nothing pointed at you specifically... well maybe a little bit due to some of your ďfactsĒ that are incorrect and/or misleading these days.

You wrote a book, I may add more later.
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      08-24-2012, 08:39 PM   #33
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Hey Josh -

I figured I would chime in here a little bit as I would like to think all of the interactions you and I have had in the past have been amicable and we get along. If anything i say in this post comes off as mean please do not take it that way as I do not have anything against you (or anyone really) in the least.

The timing correction tables (compensating for heat) are actually pretty good. There are two tables and it references factor first (essentially the percentage of the timing reduction map based on heat that piggybacks off of it). With these two tables the timing being pulled out proactively is suitable. Unless I misread somewhere that these were untouched I am confused about your posting. I do not necessarily modify the timing that is pulled - i manipulate the factor. For example - at 130* temps lets say the max timing correction is 8* (these are just made up values). I may increase the factor to .4 instead of .2. This basically means that i am having the tables pull 3.2* of timing (.4 or 40% of the max proactive pull of 8* vs the original .2 or 20%).

Hope this clears up any confusion. The numbers used above are purely fabricated. I am half asleep as prepping for Bimmerfest tomorrow has exhausted me.
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      08-24-2012, 09:38 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake@PTF View Post
Hey Josh -

I figured I would chime in here a little bit as I would like to think all of the interactions you and I have had in the past have been amicable and we get along. If anything i say in this post comes off as mean please do not take it that way as I do not have anything against you (or anyone really) in the least.

The timing correction tables (compensating for heat) are actually pretty good. There are two tables and it references factor first (essentially the percentage of the timing reduction map based on heat that piggybacks off of it). With these two tables the timing being pulled out proactively is suitable. Unless I misread somewhere that these were untouched I am confused about your posting. I do not necessarily modify the timing that is pulled - i manipulate the factor. For example - at 130* temps lets say the max timing correction is 8* (these are just made up values). I may increase the factor to .4 instead of .2. This basically means that i am having the tables pull 3.2* of timing (.4 or 40% of the max proactive pull of 8* vs the original .2 or 20%).

Hope this clears up any confusion. The numbers used above are purely fabricated. I am half asleep as prepping for Bimmerfest tomorrow has exhausted me.
Hey Jake, your post is not mean but just explaining the temp comp tables, which should be altered in the OPs case. And depending on the dyno environment and map changes, potentially reducing comp temps... In this case important in my opinion.

When someone is new to something there's a learning curve.

While you're in the thread how about some comments about the "WG dump". My opinion is that its unnecessary with the little that i've learned about ATR.
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      08-24-2012, 10:28 PM   #35
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I rode shotgun last night with Nitehawk while Dzenno tuned him for E85.

What an eye opener to all us Canucks since we don't have access to this stuff.

We were all blown away by the change to the car with just some timing table changes and some PTF secret sauce.

It was a blast watching Dzenno tune.

He made progressive changes with engine safety being the first priority.

I have to say that this was my first experience with Cobb.

On the pump gas map it was a little tamer than my Procede meth map......but once E85 was in the mix I became depressed.

The acceleration was brutal and the torque just kept on coming like multiple orgasms.

None of us were expecting such a huge transformation.

I could actually feel the skin stretch on my face from the torque
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      09-01-2012, 10:19 PM   #36
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A bit of an E85 update........

For those residing in the Toronto/GTA area there is no source of E85.

Dzenno picked some up when he was tuning Nitehawk's car, by importing it from across the border recently, but that is not practical for daily driving.

I spoke with Mitch at ProRacing fuels in Mississauga earlier today......

several of you have called them inquiring about E85 and were told by the other guy (Chuck) that they would only stock E85 with a minimum order of 25 drums - so basically they were not going to front that investment on the chance there may or may not be a local market to cater to.

What you don't know is that Chuck hates E85 and thinks it's devil semen.....

He believes it will destroy your fuel system.

So that is why people were getting turned away on their inquiries.

But Mitch is the actual chemist/blender and I had the opportunity to chat with him directly today while picking up some meth.

He says he can actually blend E85 on-site since he has all the raw ingredients. There is no need for them to ship E85 from elsewhere.

He is going to work out the price next week and I think I may have convinced him to make a trial batch.

They normally only produce the 110+ racing fuel octane blends so they would have issues freeing up a container for storage if they did manufacture E85 in any kind of volume.

But if there was enough local interest and they could turn a profit on the stuff I get the sense they find some room.

He also mentioned that it would be a conistent E85 blend....not subject to variations and seasonal swings like the mass market stuff out there.

Let me know if you think you might want to get in on this

I might be able to convince him.
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      09-02-2012, 08:30 AM   #37
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Oh very nice definitely interested
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      09-02-2012, 10:21 PM   #38
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If you are in the SouthEast and don't mind driving to Charlotte, NC, then we can take care of your Pro-Tuning needs! Motion Lab's tuner and owner, Todd, is a certified COBB Protuner. We just picked up the pro-key from COBB for the N54's, so we are ready to do your custom tune!

We can do either road tuning or Dyno tuning, whichever works best for you.

Just let me know if you have any questions, thanks!

-John B
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      09-03-2012, 01:00 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilma View Post
A bit of an E85 update........

For those residing in the Toronto/GTA area there is no source of E85.

Dzenno picked some up when he was tuning Nitehawk's car, by importing it from across the border recently, but that is not practical for daily driving.

I spoke with Mitch at ProRacing fuels in Mississauga earlier today......

several of you have called them inquiring about E85 and were told by the other guy (Chuck) that they would only stock E85 with a minimum order of 25 drums - so basically they were not going to front that investment on the chance there may or may not be a local market to cater to.

What you don't know is that Chuck hates E85 and thinks it's devil semen.....

He believes it will destroy your fuel system.

So that is why people were getting turned away on their inquiries.

But Mitch is the actual chemist/blender and I had the opportunity to chat with him directly today while picking up some meth.

He says he can actually blend E85 on-site since he has all the raw ingredients. There is no need for them to ship E85 from elsewhere.

He is going to work out the price next week and I think I may have convinced him to make a trial batch.

They normally only produce the 110+ racing fuel octane blends so they would have issues freeing up a container for storage if they did manufacture E85 in any kind of volume.

But if there was enough local interest and they could turn a profit on the stuff I get the sense they find some room.

He also mentioned that it would be a conistent E85 blend....not subject to variations and seasonal swings like the mass market stuff out there.

Let me know if you think you might want to get in on this

I might be able to convince him.
I would obviously be interested...provided the overall quality and price are comparable to that of E85 blends found in the US...

I could give Mitch a sample of the US e85 I have if that helps him at all.
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