E90Post
 


GT Haus
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > AUDIO/VIDEO + BLUETOOTH + Electronics/Alarm/Software > UK E92 - Another Upgrade FWIW



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      09-15-2012, 05:48 AM   #23
mob17
Brigadier General
mob17's Avatar
United Kingdom
79
Rep
3,815
Posts

 
Drives: E92 335D
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: East Midlands, UK

iTrader: (4)

Yeah, its on the first post of this thread http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=343673
__________________
2008 E92 335D SE - Ohlins
2010 E90 320D SE
1994 E36 318I SE
1996 E36 316I SE
Appreciate 0
      09-15-2012, 06:04 AM   #24
AWBimmer
Brigadier General
AWBimmer's Avatar
United Kingdom
72
Rep
4,992
Posts

 
Drives: E92 335D Pre-LCI
Join Date: May 2011
Location: UK

iTrader: (4)

Thanks Mo seen this a few time sbut isn't this for E90s specifically? I could be wrong though!
__________________
BMW E92 335D | The Custom Cars
Appreciate 0
      09-15-2012, 06:23 AM   #25
mob17
Brigadier General
mob17's Avatar
United Kingdom
79
Rep
3,815
Posts

 
Drives: E92 335D
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: East Midlands, UK

iTrader: (4)

Yeah the thread was for E90s but some can fit into an E92. Just need to look at the mounting depths for each speaker.

If you scroll down to mounting depth it says the depth is ~ 43mm. Im pretty sure someone has fitted Morels into an E92, just can't remember who.
__________________
2008 E92 335D SE - Ohlins
2010 E90 320D SE
1994 E36 318I SE
1996 E36 316I SE
Appreciate 0
      09-15-2012, 06:44 AM   #26
kaigoss69
Brigadier General
kaigoss69's Avatar
United_States
63
Rep
3,088
Posts

 
Drives: '08 335i
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: JAX

iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mob17 View Post
Yeah the thread was for E90s but some can fit into an E92. Just need to look at the mounting depths for each speaker.

If you scroll down to mounting depth it says the depth is ~ 43mm. Im pretty sure someone has fitted Morels into an E92, just can't remember who.
Her is an install by Technic into an e93, which I believe has the same mounting depth/limitations. http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=405224
__________________
Mobridge DA2 > JBL MS-8 > ARC XDi 600/4 > JBL Gti 408 Mids & Vifa XT19 Tweeters; PG Ti2 1600.5 > Morel HCW-10 & IDMax 15
Appreciate 0
      09-15-2012, 08:29 AM   #27
AWBimmer
Brigadier General
AWBimmer's Avatar
United Kingdom
72
Rep
4,992
Posts

 
Drives: E92 335D Pre-LCI
Join Date: May 2011
Location: UK

iTrader: (4)

Thanks Kai..

ONTO THE AMP for FRONT stage... been offered an Audison SRx4 and/or an Alpine PDX 4.100 for my front stage which without cntr dash spkr requires only 4 chan amplifier.

The price I'm being offered for both amps are very similar and around the 100 mark so here's the question...

Would you recommend any of these for my front stage and if so, which is better? Which has greater reliability? Which has less noise (I'm aware older PDX had noise issues), which is more rigid and which can take a beating when the vol levels are turned up?!!?

Need to make a decision asap lol.

Thanks to everyone!
__________________
BMW E92 335D | The Custom Cars
Appreciate 0
      09-15-2012, 09:16 AM   #28
kaigoss69
Brigadier General
kaigoss69's Avatar
United_States
63
Rep
3,088
Posts

 
Drives: '08 335i
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: JAX

iTrader: (5)

PDX has more power and is smaller and can be installed under the trunk floor. As long as it is not an older one with noise issues, I'd go with the PDX!
__________________
Mobridge DA2 > JBL MS-8 > ARC XDi 600/4 > JBL Gti 408 Mids & Vifa XT19 Tweeters; PG Ti2 1600.5 > Morel HCW-10 & IDMax 15
Appreciate 0
      09-15-2012, 09:44 AM   #29
mob17
Brigadier General
mob17's Avatar
United Kingdom
79
Rep
3,815
Posts

 
Drives: E92 335D
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: East Midlands, UK

iTrader: (4)

In my opinion its a risk to get a pdx4.100. If it was the newer ones i'd say definately get that. But its hard to get a PDX F4 for that price.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...2&postcount=42

By the way, you don't really want to cut back on the amp with all the sweet equipment you're getting. You need to give them the love they deserve! Unless you find a good amp at a cheap price of course.

Have a look at the PDX, JL XD, and JL HD (very expensive though). These amps are all very good and are compact enough to fit under the "trunk" floor. This was ideal for me. Or if hiding the amp away doesn't bother you, you do have more choices.
__________________
2008 E92 335D SE - Ohlins
2010 E90 320D SE
1994 E36 318I SE
1996 E36 316I SE
Appreciate 0
      09-15-2012, 10:28 AM   #30
AWBimmer
Brigadier General
AWBimmer's Avatar
United Kingdom
72
Rep
4,992
Posts

 
Drives: E92 335D Pre-LCI
Join Date: May 2011
Location: UK

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
PDX has more power and is smaller and can be installed under the trunk floor. As long as it is not an older one with noise issues, I'd go with the PDX!
How does one determine its 'age'? How can I tell if it's not installed and just being sold on the forum? The guy is genuine as I'm buyin the Jehnerts off him and he also said the older PDX had noise issues, not this.. but how can I verify that?

S.
__________________
BMW E92 335D | The Custom Cars
Appreciate 0
      09-15-2012, 03:11 PM   #31
makkan00
Major General
makkan00's Avatar
United Kingdom
128
Rep
7,659
Posts

 
Drives: F10
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Essex

iTrader: (48)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWBimmer View Post
How does one determine its 'age'? How can I tell if it's not installed and just being sold on the forum? The guy is genuine as I'm buyin the Jehnerts off him and he also said the older PDX had noise issues, not this.. but how can I verify that?

S.
Interesting thread going on.

If the seller is assuring you that it does not produce any noise (when 4 channels are connected), then it should be fine.

The plus point is its power in compact size.

Have you thought about getting 6 channels amp?
__________________
Appreciate 0
      09-15-2012, 03:44 PM   #32
AWBimmer
Brigadier General
AWBimmer's Avatar
United Kingdom
72
Rep
4,992
Posts

 
Drives: E92 335D Pre-LCI
Join Date: May 2011
Location: UK

iTrader: (4)

Sam2,
The seller says noise isses can happen for many reason, poor earth, bad RCAs etc and says he's had no problems with them whatsoever, however as much as I'd like to trust him and do, In my mind I feel spending so much on spkrs and cheappo on the am may not do it justice and somewhere down the line I'll wanna change for peace of mind. I'm already getting used MS-8, Jehnerts, sub (and mono amp) so would be nice to rip open a couple of new boxes for the excitement sake if not anything else LOL

Still not keen to spend a bomb on front stage amp.. Is it better to future proof and go for a 5/6 chn now in case I decide to add a cntr dash spkr?

Why else would one opt for greater chn amp if they didn't need it?

S.
__________________
BMW E92 335D | The Custom Cars
Appreciate 0
      09-15-2012, 04:21 PM   #33
makkan00
Major General
makkan00's Avatar
United Kingdom
128
Rep
7,659
Posts

 
Drives: F10
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Essex

iTrader: (48)

S1,
I was referring to 6 channels amp to power rear channels as well.

My car is only front staged like mon17 but Rudz car have better SQ as in his car rears are amped as well.
It would sound so odd when front stage is full on and rear is sending you heavy bass (quiet rear speakers) in your case.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      09-15-2012, 05:08 PM   #34
B33M3R
Captain
B33M3R's Avatar
United Kingdom
10
Rep
697
Posts

 
Drives: F10 520d M Sport
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridgeshire

iTrader: (0)

If you can hear anything meaningful playing from your rears then your staging is not right.

Certainly won't be any bass coming from them.

Let the MS8 control all channels, unless you're going fully active on the front and run out of channels, in which case you can just leave the rears on HU power for a bit of fill. If monies no object amp the lot, if you need to reign it in a bit just go for the front.

I'd rather have a centre than spend any money on the rears ;-)
__________________
F10 520d M Sport Auto - Sophisto Grey Xirallic - 19" 351M - HK Audio - Sun Protection Glass - Spoiler - Professional Media - Enhanced Bluetooth - Adaptive Headlights - MFD - Ambient Lighting - Folding Mirrors - Reversing Camera
Check out my E90stereo install guide - http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=540954
Appreciate 0
      09-15-2012, 05:23 PM   #35
mob17
Brigadier General
mob17's Avatar
United Kingdom
79
Rep
3,815
Posts

 
Drives: E92 335D
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: East Midlands, UK

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by makkan00 View Post
S1,
I was referring to 6 channels amp to power rear channels as well.

My car is only front staged like mon17 but Rudz car have better SQ as in his car rears are amped as well.
It would sound so odd when front stage is full on and rear is sending you heavy bass (quiet rear speakers) in your case.
Makkan just because Rudz's rears are amped doesn't mean he has better SQ! Jheeze!

Most people dont even bother with rears, some even disconnect them. Like Matt says if you can hear anything meaningful from the rears then your staging needs to be pulled more to the front. You won't hear any bass from the rears, no matter what 4" speakers you install there.

Awbimmer, even when you hook up your sub you want to try and make it sound like its coming from the front. This is tricky to achieve but doable.

The rears should be the last thing you worry about! Matt's right, if you're going to get a 6 ch amp for rears then just use that amp to amp a centre.
__________________
2008 E92 335D SE - Ohlins
2010 E90 320D SE
1994 E36 318I SE
1996 E36 316I SE
Appreciate 0
      09-15-2012, 05:45 PM   #36
makkan00
Major General
makkan00's Avatar
United Kingdom
128
Rep
7,659
Posts

 
Drives: F10
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Essex

iTrader: (48)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mob17 View Post
Makkan just because Rudz's rears are amped doesn't mean he has better SQ! Jheeze!

First thing first, Lets MS-8 do its job. If your rears are amped, MS-8 will do its job and you will get more sound at rears (not more than front obviously).
When you say meaningful music, yes you can still hear meaningful music, if you leave it to MS-8 to process the sound and dont play with the gains. You can hear beats fading in and out from front to rears in many songs. And that is meaningful to me.

Having said that, I am comparing it to those who just have front staged systems liked you and many others including myself.

So you get equal sound coming from each speaker when MS-8 process the sound + rears are amped (compared to quiet rears).


Moving on to next point, more bass from rears is referred to JL-W7 which Sam1 is going to have. If your rears are oem and quiet, you would get more bass from the rear via JL sub which does not sound right.

And if you decrease the gain to sub, then what is the point of adding it to system. My point here is, what is the point of staging the front so good, that you end up having front focused sound + sub sound from the trunk and rears are quiet.

Does not make sense to me, unless it does to you guys.


When it comes to amping Rears Vs Central, decision goes to that person who is having this sound system. We all are suggesting ideas.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      09-15-2012, 09:14 PM   #37
taibanl
Brigadier General
taibanl's Avatar
65
Rep
3,647
Posts

 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: NA

iTrader: (4)

Fwiw, in an ms-8 system, the rears are not for any reduced volume "fill'

The MS-8 uses rears for two purposes:

1) ambient recorded information (I.e. room reflections) which is detected by the MS-8 as audio which is out of phase on the recorded track, are played (in phase) from the rear speakers, to recreate the "room" in which the music was recorded

2) low frequency (Midbass range) sounds are played on the rear speakers, out of phase, which has the effect of "pushing" your soundstage up onto the dash.

- it is for this reason, I don't really recommend turning up amp gains after the ms-8 calibration. In such a case, the ms-8 is a bit limited in its ability to "fake" the sound of the sub coming from the dash...hence why you may see comments about not turning up sub gain too much. With equal power to the rears, the MS-8 will be able to preserve a front stage even with louder sub bass.
Appreciate 0
      09-16-2012, 02:55 AM   #38
makkan00
Major General
makkan00's Avatar
United Kingdom
128
Rep
7,659
Posts

 
Drives: F10
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Essex

iTrader: (48)

^^^ Useful comment and certainly will help many to setup their sound system better.

@ Taibnal, I agree with you that after allowing MS-8 to do its job, we should not play with amp gains and that is how I would do it, if I ever go for MS-8.

I wonder if you upgrade front and rear speakers and set the amp gains before calibration of MS-8 (lets say to 9'O clock position if 7'O clock is the starting point). Would that not sound better compared to rear OEM speakers hooked directly to MS-8 and front (upgraded speakers) coming from amp?

Or it does not really matter?


Also I would appreciate you comments on these two setups both with MS-8.

A) Front are upgraded speakers inlcuding upgraded central speakers. All fronts are connected to amplifier and rears are OEM speakers connected directly to MS-8. After calibrating MS-8, owner increases the gain to all drivers at the front on equal basis. But since rears are connected to MS-8, you can't increase the gains to rears. (unless you play with MS-8 menu and settings)

How does this system sound? Would it not be too front staged?

B) Fronts are upgraded speakers and central is L7 mid range driver. Rears are also L7 mid range drivers or lets say any upgraded drivers.
Front and rear are hooked to amplifier via MS-8 whereas L7 is connected to MS-8 only. Owner increased the gains for front and rears before calibration of MS-8. Owner calibrates the sound system and after MS-8 doing its job, owner does not play with gains any further.

How does that setup sound?


I may be wrong but comparing setup A to setup B, setup A may have better SPL but sound staging will be poor.
Whereas setup B will have better SQ, sound staging and timing however that may compromise on SPL.

What do you think on this?

And lastly to make things slightly more interesting, if you were to add trunk sub (JL W7) with both setups, ie A & B, with which setup, trunk/boot sub would sound better?

or it does not really matter?
__________________
Appreciate 0
      09-16-2012, 08:28 AM   #39
taibanl
Brigadier General
taibanl's Avatar
65
Rep
3,647
Posts

 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: NA

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by makkan00
^^^ Useful comment and certainly will help many to setup their sound system better.

@ Taibnal, I agree with you that after allowing MS-8 to do its job, we should not play with amp gains and that is how I would do it, if I ever go for MS-8.

I wonder if you upgrade front and rear speakers and set the amp gains before calibration of MS-8 (lets say to 9'O clock position if 7'O clock is the starting point). Would that not sound better compared to rear OEM speakers hooked directly to MS-8 and front (upgraded speakers) coming from amp?

Or it does not really matter?


Also I would appreciate you comments on these two setups both with MS-8.

A) Front are upgraded speakers inlcuding upgraded central speakers. All fronts are connected to amplifier and rears are OEM speakers connected directly to MS-8. After calibrating MS-8, owner increases the gain to all drivers at the front on equal basis. But since rears are connected to MS-8, you can't increase the gains to rears. (unless you play with MS-8 menu and settings)

How does this system sound? Would it not be too front staged?

B) Fronts are upgraded speakers and central is L7 mid range driver. Rears are also L7 mid range drivers or lets say any upgraded drivers.
Front and rear are hooked to amplifier via MS-8 whereas L7 is connected to MS-8 only. Owner increased the gains for front and rears before calibration of MS-8. Owner calibrates the sound system and after MS-8 doing its job, owner does not play with gains any further.

How does that setup sound?


I may be wrong but comparing setup A to setup B, setup A may have better SPL but sound staging will be poor.
Whereas setup B will have better SQ, sound staging and timing however that may compromise on SPL.

What do you think on this?

And lastly to make things slightly more interesting, if you were to add trunk sub (JL W7) with both setups, ie A & B, with which setup, trunk/boot sub would sound better?

or it does not really matter?
A lot of this will be speculation based on research and keeping up with the th read on diymobileaudio audio...but here goes

In situation A, I wouldn't describe it as too front staged as ANY ms-8 based sun stem is going. To try and be completely front staged...but, referencing my post above, the front staging effects may not be optimal.

In situation B, you're essentially paying for amplifier power that you're not using. Because the in-amped channels are the lowest common denominator, the ms-8 will try and tune down to those.

I think your comparison on sq vs spl is accurate though

notes:
1) your center speaker should be just as good as your front doors
1a) power to center should be just as good as front doors
2) if you have equal power to all channels then it's theoretically ok to play with amp gains, but in that case just calibrate ms8 at lower volume then turn ms8 volume up.
3) there is another trick to getting more spl when rears are not amped....it is based on using the rear fader to bias the ms8 in favor of rear then turning front stage up. This is the most "pure" of the amp gain trickery options.
4) fwiw, so far my best tune has been with an xd 600/6 and only front stage amped...not rears OR center I'd say I had 95% of available SQ. i didn't like that I wasn't really using much of the available power from the xd so I decided to change the amps to a 2x hd setup(so far only able to get back to 85-90%sq). However it's not an apples to apples comparison. My previous tune used the kaigoss mod whereas my current tune has the sub on its own ms8 channel. I think that is the difference and I am going to go that direction with it. I should be able to get 98%sq from this or that's my goal anyway.
5) rears should have some type of tweeter, coax or separate.
6) based on my experience, I've been recommending more all or nothing approaches...either amp all your channels, or not. I redo mended to quiksr20 to run ms-8 with efficient front speakers (dls r4) and no extra power, except for midbass and sub....his install is still in the works but I expect the final result to be great
7) if you do want amps...a good cost efficient and pretty option for our cars is the alpine pdx v9 (5ch) and PDx 100.4, which will give you equal power to all channels plus good sub power.
8) as to yoour first gain question, the ms8 behaves better when it has less matching to do...this is why I gave mob17 the guide to ms8 setting advice which he posted. The ms8 is designed to set and forget gains but it does much much better when it doesn't work as hard to match.
Appreciate 0
      09-16-2012, 09:33 AM   #40
makkan00
Major General
makkan00's Avatar
United Kingdom
128
Rep
7,659
Posts

 
Drives: F10
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Essex

iTrader: (48)

taibanl,
Thanks a lot for taking time and writing that in detail.

It cerntainly answers many questions which I had in my mind.
Alpine pdx v9 seem very reasonably priced and very well spec'd.


redo mended to quiksr20 to run ms-8 with efficient front speakers (dls r4) and no extra power, except for midbass and sub....his install is still in the works but I expect the final result to be great


Looking forward to results of this.
Where can I find thread on this?


Thanks Taibanl
__________________
Appreciate 0
      09-16-2012, 11:19 AM   #41
AWBimmer
Brigadier General
AWBimmer's Avatar
United Kingdom
72
Rep
4,992
Posts

 
Drives: E92 335D Pre-LCI
Join Date: May 2011
Location: UK

iTrader: (4)

This is becoming a much better thread than initially expected..

Ok for you pros: I've been told by Technic that the E92s dept in the door will only go as much as 40mm which restricts most components, leaving just the focal 100KRS to get again.

I don't mind getting them but my only complain was the tweeters were harsh suonding, will the MS-8 be able to control this beyond the HU's capabilities??

I was planning the Morel Dotechs but seeing as many people say they won't fit the E92, I think I'll just go with the focals.. it'll give a nice balance to the trunk bass and underseat mid-bass from jehnerts...

RE: AMP PDX 4.100 - how can I tell if the dude selling his one has the older / newer version..?? I don't wanna get a cheappo amp after spending on good equipment..

Cheers all
P.S. The MS-8 setting seems a real bi*ch! LOL.. Have we got UK version of TIABANL in the house??
__________________
BMW E92 335D | The Custom Cars
Appreciate 0
      09-16-2012, 12:30 PM   #42
taibanl
Brigadier General
taibanl's Avatar
65
Rep
3,647
Posts

 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: NA

iTrader: (4)

The ms-8 level setting alone is fairly easy. Its the combination of that and the JL Audio gain setting that is more difficult. This really only becomes a concern if you want to know where the maximum safe input sensitivity of your amp is.
Appreciate 0
      09-16-2012, 12:44 PM   #43
AWBimmer
Brigadier General
AWBimmer's Avatar
United Kingdom
72
Rep
4,992
Posts

 
Drives: E92 335D Pre-LCI
Join Date: May 2011
Location: UK

iTrader: (4)

And re: the components, am I really only able to select Focal KRS 100 due to its 39mm fitting? On E90s I understand there is more space in the doors so one can has a greater choice of components... but am I only able to consider the Focals KRS100 on this occassion?

And TAIBANL - what are your views on this Alpine PDX 4.100 amp the guy has offered me for 100 - he's upgrading to some next madness Voce 5.1k etc etc and doesn't require the PDX.

Some people say don't go cheappoh on the amp given it's the hub of the music, however they are good amps in general but I'm not sure how to differentiate betweent he odler noisier ones and the newer ones?!

Any advice please? I don't want to let it go if its a good amp but I don't wanna get it if it's garbage at the same time lol.

Picking up the Jehnerts tmrw which is all good and I know I've made the right decision on them as I'll get a greater Mid Base kick :-)
__________________
BMW E92 335D | The Custom Cars
Appreciate 0
      09-16-2012, 05:46 PM   #44
kaigoss69
Brigadier General
kaigoss69's Avatar
United_States
63
Rep
3,088
Posts

 
Drives: '08 335i
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: JAX

iTrader: (5)

The Focal mids are very good, even those from the VRS series, which also fits I believe. It's the tweeters that suck (well, at least they sound harsh to most people). Like I told you in the PM, the MS-8 will tame some of the harshness, and you always have the option to upgrade the tweeters later on.
__________________
Mobridge DA2 > JBL MS-8 > ARC XDi 600/4 > JBL Gti 408 Mids & Vifa XT19 Tweeters; PG Ti2 1600.5 > Morel HCW-10 & IDMax 15
Appreciate 0
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:49 AM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST