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      08-30-2012, 03:40 PM   #1
gda_scooby
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335i Turbo refurb/upgrade in UK + Vishnu

Looking for a bit of (UK based) advice re turbos please.

A couple of months back i bought a modified 335i coupe. I had it for about 6 weeks when it was stolen, and then recovered a week later.

The insurance wanted to write the car off, but instead i took the car back with a cash settlement.

Part of the settlement is to repair the damage to the turbos, which are rattling a lot.

The car is the following spec:

- AR Design High Flow Catted Downpipes (fitted by Birds Auto)
- Quaife Limited Slip Differential (fitted by Birds Auto)
- Hartge Anti Roll Bar Front & Rear Kit (fitted by Birds Auto)
- Vishnu Procede V3 PnP
- BMS Air Intake Filter
- Helix Front Mounted Inter Cooler
- Forge Dump Valves
- Modified Clutch Delay Valve
- BMW OEM Performance Strut Brace
- Foam Spray Puncture Repair Kit
- UUC Short Shift Gearbox Kit
- UUC DSSR (eliminates play on gear lever)
- UUC Weighted Leather Gear Knob
- BBS LM Reps staggered with Avon tyres
- Eibach 12mm spacers all round
- Mcguard locking wheel nuts
- Eibach pro kit

As you can see, its a decent spec, which is why i didnt want it written off. I have been told this should see it close to 400bhp (if not slightly more)

The car is at bmw just now getting the locks changed, then I plan to lay it up and remove the turbos myself.

I have contacted Turbo Dynamics, who are keen to look at the turbos to either repair/upgrade them.

Does anyone in the UK have any experience with either TD refurbished turbos, or their hybrid ones? I noticed something on here about new oil lines?

Is anyone else running different hybrids in the UK?

And finally, is there anyone running/able to tune the Procede V3 kit in the UK?

cheers,

G
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      08-30-2012, 05:20 PM   #2
idnan
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First of all congrats on getting your car back, I'm guessing it was the space grey one that went missing up North. I've got Rob Beck hybrids from the USA on my car. They worked out a fair bit cheaper than the TD versions and they use all the original BMW hardware including oil and water lines. The turbos cost me under 2.5k all in delivered to the UK. The RB turbos are equivalent to the TD Stage 2s which are $1700+vat each. Standard turbos from BMW are about 1k+vat last time I checked.

TD are a UK based company so you will have better customer service and warranty and I'm sure they will be able to help you out with your queries.

I've said it before, unless you are running methanol and really pushing the standard turbos then upgrading them is pretty pointless. At the same boost, the RBs make 40whp more than standards. Fit a meth kit with standard turbos and you will see excellent gains for much less.

Can't help you on the Vishnu tuning side, read up in the N54 engine side of the forum and you should be able to learn how to tweak your own car.
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      08-30-2012, 05:26 PM   #3
two,_OH_five
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I'm sure the scooby forums are full of tales good and bad about Turbo Dynamics

Personally I'd trust then to rebuild a turbo to stock specification but based on experience (from their application on a completely different car I hasten to add) I would be wary of their hybrids until they had explained clearly what wheels they would plan to use
Their stock solution on said other platform was to attach a compressor that Windy Miller would be proud of to a clipped turbine resulting in a very laggy turbo with surge problems

Worth giving some of the other turbo guys some phone time - Turbo Technics and Owen Developments would be my choice

You might even be lucky and find you're only suffering from the infamous 35i wastegate rattle although if they were silent and now rattle badly a week later it's a fair bet they've been given a good seeing to and would probably need inspecting anyway

Oil lines - I would inspect and replace if necessary. If in good visible condition then a good clean to remove any built up carbon would be a must for me - the chance of twoc'ing blankety blankers following careful turbo cool off procedures is quite low
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      08-31-2012, 01:57 AM   #4
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Birds used to use Turbo Dynamics but have recently changed to a new supplier due to a number of issues.

The ones they are now displaying look very well made and have a redesigned wastegate etc, not sure who made them though!

Birds also fit the procede and provide bespoke maps, potentially this is what is on the car... Worth a call to them!
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      08-31-2012, 03:00 AM   #5
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Nice one, I remember this car begin for sale on here, then hearing it had got nicked - glad you got her back!

I would say you'll easy see 400bhp, no worries there. Don't know the V3 i'm afraid, with piggybacks we're mostly JB4 on here

Agree, call Birds BMW, speak to Kevin and see what they reccommend (no Bull from Kevin) as a starter for 10.

You might get away with actuator arm adjustment to remove the rattle in the short term, till it wears again.

TD do a wastegate fix (to help mitigate the design flaw that causes the wear) for about 200 each maybe or less.

This would sort them for life and save you .

As Idnan says unless your really going for it then upgraded turbos is a lot of dosh, especially as we need 2 of buggers!
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      08-31-2012, 03:13 AM   #6
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I am only really posting here in respect of choosing a new turbo. I have no idea what the best option is regarding fixing the issue as described by Doughboy - Birds probably isn't a bad shout because few other garages will really have seen as many faults as they have. Especially not specific to the 335i.

That said, in all all honesty Gents (controversial opinion coming up) I don't really trust Birds anymore. Don't get me wrong - changing from a supplier like Turbo Dynamics to A-Nother because of poor service is a GOOD thing, but I also don't like how Kevin wraps everything in mystery as though Birds are doing something special.

For example, I had a conversation with Kevin recently in which he explained that they no longer use M3 bushes on other 3 series models because they have 'worked with a leading manufacturer' to 'design and develop' a 'new and revolutionary' bush that is harder and longer lasting etc etc. In reality, they have started to buy in Powerflex and that's basically the long and short of it.

I'm also not a fan of this Quaiffe arrangement as you all know and have heard many times. 2500 for my car is frankly a pisstake when you consider it's done on a well established diff exchange basis and Birds have NEVER lowered the price even though they must have made significant steps forward in the way the work is done and on more or less all associated costs.

Personally, because of the fact that the OP is having problems, I think he should consider going with the RB turbos. I've done a lot of research recently between RB and Loba Motorsport because I am likely to be upgrading to one or the other at the first sensible opportunity - likely if I start to suffer from any issues.

I like the RB's because they are well respected, their service seems good, the price is attractive and most importantly for me (and I think the op) because they appear to be more reliable than stock, TD or Loba. Marcel has posted somewhere about it in detail, but I understand the RB's are very well made with lots of upgraded bits including the wastegate assembly, rotors etc.

Why pay more and get less with TD or dare I say it, Birds?

Matt
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      08-31-2012, 03:45 AM   #7
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Matt I share your views on Birds but there's no point me repeating what you're saying. Maybe it is worthwhile going for and m3 setup like me.

In all honesty my costs were as follows: M3 full rear subframe 450, M3 prop 100, Custom prop work 100, Rogue Engineering rear arms 300. So thats a clutch based diff with stronger driveshafts, thicker ARB, bigger diff cover and subframe bushes for under 1k. Obviously add labour into that but I DIY'd it myself and it was fairly straight forward. Only potential problem I can see is choosing the correct ratio as your DCT is 2.something and the lowest m3 one is 3.16.

Anyway back on topic, RBs are great. Rob might have a wait on due to the popularity of his turbos but it is well worth the wait. The only potential issue is that our RHD turbos are quite rare in the UK (same as all 135i's). I had all oil lines replaced when mine was done and all but one water line as it was out of stock. The RB's have an upgraded wastegate design but mine has a very quite rattle but it is not noticeable unless you're trying to hear it.

Forgot to say Matt you might need some work to your DCT trans if you're going to upgrade to RBs and run high boost.
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      08-31-2012, 04:14 AM   #8
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Birds have a monopoly for a product which is, in real terms, in low demand.

Price sensititivity is therefore low - people want it or dont.

I thought the price of the ATB unit itself was the same regardless of the application.

Unfortunately with our welded diffs, the machining and labour adds significantly to the cost. Birds labour rates are high too!
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      08-31-2012, 05:04 AM   #9
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To the above, yes it was the dark grey one that was stolen - i made it as public as possible and the twocers definately felt the heat - they are still out there though.

I am in two minds about upgrading the turbo (for more performance as opposed to making it last longer)

there is obviously a cost implication, and potential wear and tear on the rest of the car.

the car is probably fast enough on standard turbos, if they were quiet. But i know its a lot of work to get them off the car, and im scared i would kick myself if i wanted to upgrade later.

I have read about rb turbos, what kind of turn around time did you have on those? i do have other transport but its a 1L fiesta.

As most people, i have finite resources, and think i'd rather have a rock solid 400bhp on good standard turbos, than the complications of upgraded turbos, new maps, oil lines etc.

That said, if its only say 1k more for the RBs (over refurbed standards to good standard) it would be foolish to discount that

G
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      08-31-2012, 05:05 AM   #10
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Sorry Gents,

I didn't want to move this onto a diff discussion - we've been there, done that and TBH... I am just not going to bother!!

My plan is to leave my stock turbos until they blow (if they blow) and then replace with RB's which I will run at lowish boost - target horsepower of 450 ish to keep the pressure off other parts.

The M3/Powerflex bush conversation I had with Kevin was the final straw really. Not to mention the stupidly high price on their Bilstein suspension which has now been proven a less well rounded product than a couple of other options.

Phil to answer your question - the DTC weighs in at the most pricey. It's just over 2500 all in.

Matt
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      08-31-2012, 05:12 AM   #11
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I wasn't so much suggesting that Birds do the work, just that they are V3 'experts' and their usually pricier options would be a good place to start digging, hopefully it could only get cheaper from there on!

Yep, RB's seem the best bet, but does the OP need that at this stage, if a tweak might fix the rattle for a while?

A TD refurb with wastegate fix would give you solid stock turbos good for another 100k.

Unless you're pushing FBO, Meth and G5 etc and still want more (Idnan? anyone? 500bhp+) then there's no need for turbos, if yours are completely knackered thought it is more appealing.
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      08-31-2012, 05:28 AM   #12
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Procede has a built in rattle fix.

That would be the first thing I'd try...
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      08-31-2012, 05:33 AM   #13
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Aye Doughboy - I didn't wanna flame your post hence trying to explain my way around from the fix and moving on to the turbo replacement.

No doubt a fix would be cheapest (even if Birds do it) and I agree that only Birds and maybe 1-2 other Indy's (Darren Wood springs to mind) might have seen enough cars to finger it right away.

I was then thinking out loud about my own turbo enquiries really. My own local garage who did all the VW work) are PROPERLY in bed with Loba Motorsport but I don't want them because I think it's an inferior product at a higher price.

I'm going to be posting something about my own small turbo issue in a few mins, but I doubt it is as severe as wastegate rattle (which I've never noticed on mine.)

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      08-31-2012, 07:23 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingKileak View Post
Sorry Gents,

I didn't want to move this onto a diff discussion - we've been there, done that and TBH... I am just not going to bother!!

My plan is to leave my stock turbos until they blow (if they blow) and then replace with RB's which I will run at lowish boost - target horsepower of 450 ish to keep the pressure off other parts.

The M3/Powerflex bush conversation I had with Kevin was the final straw really. Not to mention the stupidly high price on their Bilstein suspension which has now been proven a less well rounded product than a couple of other options.

Phil to answer your question - the DTC weighs in at the most pricey. It's just over 2500 all in.

Matt

waht other options are more rounded than the birds suspension set up mate? asking because thats the next stage for me
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      08-31-2012, 04:10 PM   #15
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You can get M3 bushes from BMW, various options are available for anti-roll bars, in regards to springs/dampers Koni FDS seem to get good reviews. My local indep is fitting my M3 bushes (they are going to make their own tool for fitting them) and Eibach anti-roll bars end of next week

But for the diff Birds are the best, they fitted the Quaife on my car in about half a day and for what I think is a reasonable price...best mod for the car, on par the JB4, though if I had to pick only one it would be the diff
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      08-31-2012, 05:38 PM   #16
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People do rave about the diff, but for me it's 2.5k and at that price considering my other mods, I might as well have bought an M3 and charged it.

Suspension wise - I think the Koni FSD w/ Eibach spring combo is comparable and much cheaper. Bushes, well M3 or powerflex are comparable and arguably, powerflex are firmer and therefore better. They are certainly cheaper.

As for rear ARB? Well that's pointless unless your doing the diff because it's a mother fucker to get to. The stock one is paper thin though, so do upgrade if you ever have the rear subframe off.

Matt
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      09-01-2012, 01:51 AM   #17
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The amount I have spent on my 335 would have easily got me into a M3, but my wife have firmly said no to the M3 and I actually now perfer my car to my mates M3, 90% of the performance but non of the attention a M3 gets (given the fact my garage got broken into recently am happy to attract as less attention as possible to my house ).

Do Birds now charge 2.5K for the diff now? Am sure I paid a lot less than that 18 months ago, at 2.5k it does seem like a lot of
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      09-01-2012, 05:02 PM   #18
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It's based on your car.

Mine, which is a DCT is a pain in the arse.

Any other diff is much less.

Matt
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      09-01-2012, 05:06 PM   #19
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I say contact vishnu, upgrade to his single turbo and be the first Vishnu 335 single turbo 600+HP!
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      09-01-2012, 05:41 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Route 16 View Post
I say contact vishnu, upgrade to his single turbo and be the first Vishnu 335 single turbo 600+HP!
I'm not sure that would be such a good idea in the UK...

Matt
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      09-01-2012, 05:56 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingKileak View Post
I'm not sure that would be such a good idea in the UK...

Matt
Ahh...rules...I suppose.
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      09-03-2012, 10:05 AM   #22
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You should contact Evolve, they know there stuff and may be able to help with advice and any other work that may need doing.

If you do a search for E92 fans posts, you will see he's doen several threads on his turbo upgrade which TD carried out which may be useful to see. I've not had experience with TD so can;t say if there good or not but in terms of info his threads will prob be worth a read if your going down the upgraded route.
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