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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > FBIS's Vishnu/FFTEC Review: Responding to some comments



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      09-07-2012, 03:07 AM   #1
shiv@vishnu
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FBIS's Vishnu/FFTEC Review: Responding to some comments

Hi guys,
Former Boosted IS made it pretty clear that he does not want to deal with any trolls/haters in his very well-written and thorough review thread. I'm a bit more tolerant of them so I've started this thread to address some of their comments At the very least, I think this may help answer some general questions about our single turbo conversion as well as give some insight as to how it works and why it is configured the way it is. Many of you will not find any of this news. But some may find answers to these following comments interesting. So here goes....

Quote:
Originally Posted by themyst View Post
The review itself seems fair enough. Indicated issues he had and got the car on a dyno to back up the results Vishnu provided him. The boost curve looks pretty crappy though. Jagged edges all over the place with an independent datalog which looks smoother due to the scaling of the software.

It appears Vishnu's dyno reads about 20 whp high, which backs up what I suspected.
themyst has probably forgotten that the boost reading now comes from an add-on 3.5bar MAP sensor that is referenced from the intake manifold at a point upstream from a single intake runner (well downstream of the throttle body). This means that one will naturally get pressure pulsations in that column of air as the intake valves open and close when running higher boost pressures. As most have seen, the N54 doesn't have much of a common plenum to dampen out these individual cylinder pulsations. In fact, the only place you will not see pressure pulsations is when reading pressure on the other side of the throttle body (in the charge pipe). This is where the stock MAP sensor gets it signal from and, as a result, boost logs are generally smooth.

If there is any doubt as to the nature of these boost log pulsations, I encourage anyone to just look at the power curve from the dyno. I don't think there has ever been a smoother torque curve ever posted by a N54. The boost control on the Procede is pretty effective and I'd put it head and shoulders above anything else I've seen/tested. Running 25psi on a high compression motor is no small task and the results speak for themselves.

Lastly, themyst fails to realize that the FBIS's baseline stock dyno result was only 262whp, which is a good 10-20whp lower than the vast majority of stock baselines seen from other Dynojets. So to claim that "our" dyno reads high is disingenuous. It's more fair to suggest that the dyno that FBIS tested at reads low. Also, it's worth mentioning that we don't have our own dynojet (we have an AWD Mustang Dyno). Instead, we use 2 different independently owned Dynojets (The Mustang Ranch in Santa Clara, CA and DNR Motorsports in Hayward, CA). They both read identically and provide numbers within 1% of each other. Stock N54s put down 275-280whp on both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks View Post
Of course his dyno reads 20whp high and that 450whp run on E85/stock turbo is a ~430whp But that's besides the point of this thread..
Have no doubt, any stock turbo car that runs 11.3x 1/4 mile times is making 450whp. Just as the dyno suggests. He should be aware that our stock turbo FBO cars are quicker at the track than this Protuned FBO car with RB turbos, but that is besides the point of this thread as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lulz_m3 View Post
Wish i could see fuel pressures low and high, IPW/IDC to see where the fuel system is at. Hes almost maxed out his fuel trims near redline.
Trims climb up to ~20% at the very end of the RPM band. Through most of the powerband, trims are negative to 0%. To say that fuel trims are maxed out near redline suggests a lack of understanding or just not knowing how to read a log (or FBIS's words).

Quote:
Originally Posted by lulz_m3 View Post
Eh, yes and no. Fluctuations in environmental factors could call for more fuel, but probably not enough to completely max fuel trims. Shiv also said he intends on getting one putting down similar numbers on E85, so i guess he has a plan for more headroom. The more actual boost the DME sees, the higher his fuel ceiling goes in terms of procede smoke and mirrors fueling.
Fluctuations in environmental factors effect boost targeting and AFR targets with the goal of keeping trims consistent. You will find that the colder the temp get, the lower the Procede's boost target. We do a very effective job of operating well within the fuel system limits, thank you very much. Not sure what "procede smoke and mirrors fuelings" are being referred to. I suggest that lulz_m3 spends more time understanding the subject matter and less tossing around misinformed conclusions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enrita View Post
You need the base flash to run high boost on the single. Without you are stuck with a 15-16 psi map
Not quite. We made 634whp with the stock DME (Procede only). This was at 21-22psi peak.

And regarding our use of 4 1.0mm nozzles in our single turbo methanol injection system:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LostMarine View Post
Your seriously trying to pawn that off as a reason? 4 meth nozzles, that's twice a s many as anyone else, (except for n20 guys-but they admit to using it for fuel..) 4 nozzles to cool a charge, that is cooler to begin with, than smaller turbos, where 1 has been shown to provide ample cooling....interesting theory
The idea behind methanol injection is to spray in proportion to airflow/HP. So for all those people who are spraying 800cc/min in their FBO stock turbo car (420whp), that would be equivalent of spraying 1250cc/min in a 650whp car. Which is quite accurate. Spraying 800cc/min in a 650whp car wouldn't provide suitable knock suppression. Even if we had all the fuel in the world at our disposal with regards to DME mapping, we would still spray that amount of methanol.

The fuel bandaid argument is pretty silly at the point since we aren't exactly scraping against fuel system limits at these power levels. In fact, we hope to support these power levels running straight e85 before too long.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lulz_m3 View Post
Compare to most platforms, the amount of meth we run is ridiculous to begin with, so i'm not sure that's a fair statement.
N54s are able to run more methanol than many other platforms because it runs a closed loop fuel control system under boost. Whereas many (older) platforms run open loop under load which would result in an excessive power-robbing rich-run condition when injecting higher volumes of methanol. Not so with the N54 which only sees benefits with no downsides.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EDM92 View Post
I wouldn't want to run a $#@! load of meth and race gas on my daily driver. Many people who own the single say they daily drive them. I would assume they want to daily drive it on pump gas. 450whp on pump gas is pretty slow for $10,000, in my opinion.
Opinions can be useful. But here is fact: FBIS's car made 550whp on 93oct (no meth):


Cheers,
shiv

Last edited by shiv@vishnu; 09-07-2012 at 03:22 AM.
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      09-07-2012, 03:28 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by EDM92
I wouldn't want to run a $#@! load of meth and race gas on my daily driver. Many people who own the single say they daily drive them. I would assume they want to daily drive it on pump gas. 450whp on pump gas is pretty slow for $10,000, in my opinion.

********

I'm a single turbo who runs 91+meth all day long. I run the map that has it active when needed. I'm running 4 nozzles and I can go several tanks on a single gallon of meth. No issues there.

One thing that often gets missed, is that when you're running a single turbo on 91+meth, its freaking fast. I let off the accelerator a lot sooner than I did when I was FBO+meth.
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      09-07-2012, 05:11 AM   #3
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+1

I too daily drive 91oct + meth. The only difference is I find myself holding down the throttle all the time, it's like crack. My brakes don't appreciate it though.

Thanks for taking the time to answer some of those questions Shiv. 450whp. Bwahaha
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      09-07-2012, 05:53 AM   #4
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Maybe I'm missing something, but where are these comments coming from?
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      09-07-2012, 06:04 AM   #5
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Holy crap, you guys stay up late. Is it from all the adrenaline procured from driving around your wicked fast cars all day??!!
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      09-07-2012, 06:18 AM   #6
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And have no doubt, any stock turbo car that runs 11.3x 1/4 mile times is making 450whp. Just as the dyno suggests. He should be aware that our stock turbo FBO cars are quicker at the track than this Protuned FBO car with RB turbos, but that is besides the point of this thread as well.

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      09-07-2012, 08:41 AM   #7
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Wow, such anger.

When I stated your dyno reads high, it was in relation to the one FBIS used.

You seem to love pushing big numbers without posting a same-day baseline, so we both seem to understand how to interpret a delta.

And I am fully aware you are using a different map sensor as the stock one can't exceed 21.x psi. I got plenty of 2ABC codes to prove it! . I still think my comment regarding the boost trace is fair.
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      09-07-2012, 09:00 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themyst View Post
Wow, such anger.

When I stated your dyno reads high, it was in relation to the one FBIS used.

You seem to love pushing big numbers without posting a same-day baseline, so we both seem to understand how to interpret a delta.
Let's not play that game themyst. I'm quite sure I know what you meant. Also, a lack of a same day baseline is pretty understandable, due to obvious logistics, when dealing with single turbo and/or flexfuel conversions.

Quote:
And I am fully aware you are using a different map sensor as the stock one can't exceed 21.x psi. I got plenty of 2ABC codes to prove it! . I still think my comment regarding the boost trace is fair.
Yes, you are fully aware that we are using an add-on MAP sensor. But you were not aware that the location of the signal source causes pulsation effects that you misinterpreted as poor boost control. Your comments on the other forum, like most "technical" comments there, are based upon a general lack of understanding.
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      09-07-2012, 09:20 AM   #9
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Thanks Shiv. It must be a part-time job trying to squash the disinformation, doubt, and skepticism from those with predetermined dispositions.

Last edited by n54door; 09-07-2012 at 09:38 AM.
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      09-07-2012, 09:29 AM   #10
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More comments by lulz_m3:

Quote:
Originally Posted by lulz_m3 View Post
[after addressing his inaccurate comment regarding fuel trims]
That was my mistake, but honestly the PROcede logs are absolutely TERRIBLE to read. I really hope (for the sake of your users) your new tuning interface will display logs better, your scaling is terrible. Make sure to post this up on E90, im sure others will agree with me.
I'm sure other members who use our software understanding that the scaling is user definable. Click on the graph you want to re-scale and press the letter P if you want to establish different min/max values on the Y axis. You can put all the channels on one big graph if you want. Or you can, for the sake of clarity, dedicate one channel per graph. It's pretty powerful datalog tool once you take the time to learn how to use it.

Quote:
I'm very pleased to hear that your PROcede is now targeting load, just like a flash tune. Funny how load targeting flash tunes were discredited by you. You touted the fact that the procede targets a specific boost setpoint to be an advantage, now its not? Funny how things work out...
No sir, it's not targeting load. If it did, it would mean that boost setpoint is increased as IATs goes above a certain range. And this is certainly not the case. In fact, boost is reduced when IAT increases The boost reduction at low IAT is to maintain the same operational headroom as far as the fuel system goes. These concessions are understandable when making these power levels. Here is the IAT/Boost compensation table for our single turbo Procede map:


[regarding the use of 4 meth nozzles again]
Quote:
This statement is just garbage. Other platforms can be tuned to account for whatever volume of meth flow they need, unless you're talking about just strapping on a meth kit and not tuning for it? If so, thats not what we're really talking about, now is it?
I'm not sure what you are arguing. That we are injected too much meth? 1300cc/min of meth in a car that makes over 700bhp is quite reasonable by any standard. In fact, that is a lower airflow/meth flow ratio that many max effort stock turbo cars.

Hope that helps clarify some points...

Shiv
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      09-07-2012, 09:38 AM   #11
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Posts like this that make me proud to own a Procede.

Shiv, your theme song:



We gonna take over the World while these haters gettin' mad
Take over the World, watch these haters get mad
That's why all my bitches bad, they see this crazy life I have
Hop into the car then we take 'em to the pad
It's a wrap.
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      09-07-2012, 10:05 AM   #12
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Another post by Dzenno@PTF:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dzenno@ProTUNING Freaks View Post
Dare I split fact and fiction in this rebuttal? Let me give it a shot and it'd be nice Shivo if you responded here so we can have a discussion or call me, you probably still have my number and we can chat it up

Alright, here we go:

1) FACT - Your dyno reads higher than most average Dynojets proven by many of your customers including FBIS. Your FBO stock boost cars have dynoed 310whp baseline which is higher than average. I didn't say 450whp was fake, I said its higher by 20whp and people on average shouldn't expect to get 450whp with E85 on your same tune on average with a Dynojet other than your glory one which you seem to prefer. Works great for marketing your Flex fuel kit I bet.
Incorrect. Most FBO cars we have run on the dyno have made 300-310whp, depending on ambient temps. This is quite normal. You may recall that the stock DME runs more boost in warm weather to compensate for lower air density. You may also recall that all weather corrected dynos apply a positive correction when ambient temps are above the SAE standard temp. This essentially results in an overcorrection. One that only applies to stock DME tunes running well below octane limitations (ie, stock baselines). If you dyno in warmer weather, you'll see higher stock tune baseline numbers. This is fact.

Quote:
2) FICTION - "any stock turbo car that runs 11.3x 1/4 mile times is making 450whp (Shiv)" Terry@BMS ran 11.2 which is still the overall N54 stock turbo record. Funny enough, when your own 6MT Single turbo car, "pro tuned" by yourself on SLICKS and a 3.46 rear end does a "record shattering" 10.8 1/4 mile pass with no less than a 1.5sec 60' you go at length to convince people how it has more instead of showing results. Plenty of 600+whp cars that run low 10s. Also funny that even before running it at the track you claimed you'd just jump over 10s and get into 9s and hardly reached into 10s. All I'm saying is that you're being pretty obnoxious comparing my 6MT car to a 6AT.
I'm sure Terry's car is fast for stock turbos. It is a lightended 135 making 450whp. I'd expect it to be quicker than a 335 make similar power. For someone who runs mid 11s (with upgraded turbos), you really don't seem to have much of an idea of what is takes to run 10s in a 6mt. Nor do you seem to remember that Sacramento raceway has recalibrated its lights to slow down trap speeds (pls refer to hotrod182's comparison to VBOX data). Long story short, the 1/4 mile traps are a good 4mph lower than what you see at many other dragstrips. Until you beat a record, you shouldn't dismiss the work it takes to do so. To be fair, the car does have 10.5x in it. But that has proven to be more of a driver limitation (me) than anything else. When fall comes, we will go back and do a second run at the strip

Quote:
3) MISLEADING - "our stock turbo FBO cars are quicker at the track than this Protuned FBO car with RB turbos (Shiv)" My own personal RB car was NEVER pro tuned by anyone or by me. The run was done last year in November and I didn't have either ATR or ATP yet to touch anything, wish I did. Past 5 months (since the end of March) I've been waiting on my car to be back on the road. You are also comparing 6AT cars to my 6MT again as if you don't know the difference in the 1/4 mile times when it comes to transmissions and ability to get out of the hole quick. At least I was always fair to say that your single turbo had more in it with a 6AT transmission as I know the burdens of racing an N54 with a 6MT down the 1/4 and you do too.
Fair enough.

Quote:
In terms of the so called pro tune I had. I had a very early experimental alpha race map from Cobb, not my tune of any sort. It ran a mere 5* of timing down low to 10* at redline It still managed to pull off 125-126.6mph traps (128mph on the vbox). My ET was 11.4 and none of your 6MT TT cars including your own, stock or RB/ASR or whatever, have ever come close even against this very conservative tune that I had at the time in November last year (9 months ago). Look at the tuning these days how different and more aggressive it is, especially on E85. Once my own custom tune does go on the car and I get to pour that sweetness called E85 in the tank I'm sure we'll talk again or you might go silent lol Until then these comments are laughable at best.
Actually, i ran 11.502s with stock turbos FBO a couple years ago. You ran a 11.438 running similar mods but with RB turbos. Both 6MT cars. Both running gasoline+meth. Is 0.064s close? For more info see here:

http://www.dragtimes.com/BMW--335i-Drag-Racing.html

Quote:
I am really looking forward to some races between your current stock turbo procede FBO cars against the cars we're tuning. 6MT vs 6MT, 6AT vs 6AT whether its 1/4 mile, roll ons, dynos (on the same dyno same day, not your glory runs).
I don't do glory runs. You know that. As does everyone else who has had me custom tune their car.

Quote:
Have a rebuttal? Stick to the facts and try to be honest for once. I give you respect a lot more often than you seemingly deserve. Good luck copy/pasting this across other boards on the net. I don't know why it pissed you off when I said your dyno reads 20whp high when you yourself know that its true. Why is that a big deal when we all know there can/is dyno variance. In your case it reads higher so good for you.
Contrary to what you and others insist, your comments don't bother me. It's the internet and I, like many others, simply use it to exchange information and nothing more. Unlike yourself, I don't use profanity or attack others when they correct me. My real world is still the cars I see and tune (in person, not over the internet) on a daily basis. Once you understand that, a lot more of what I say and my intention behind it (or lack thereof) will make more sense. Until then, I just urge you to take a deep breathe and at least try to understand the topics at hand before going on attack mode.

Regards
Shiv
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      09-07-2012, 10:38 AM   #13
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keep going
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      09-07-2012, 10:43 AM   #14
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It's always the same Anti Shiv Crew stirring the pot. They need to get out more and stop the jealousy.
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      09-07-2012, 11:18 AM   #15
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One thing that never seems to get brought up when people try to compare upgraded twins vs the single, is the fact that the single is currently tuned to limit torque in a majority of the low RPM range for drivetrain protection as the boundaries of our platform are slowly pushed. I'm sure as the area under the curve for these single turbo cars gets fatter and fatter, we will see an even bigger disparity in the performance between the upgrades vs the one large snail.
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      09-07-2012, 12:18 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E3r2E9r View Post
It's always the same Anti Shiv Crew stirring the pot. They need to get out more and stop the jealousy.
by asking questions that are beneficial to all of us? What is the use of a "Forum" if all the responses to a post are Wow, Amazing, Cool...

Granted results are great, but we all are curious to understand what makes this tick...
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      09-07-2012, 01:35 PM   #17
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I actually like this discussion. Why must discussions be so peaceful? Interesting points and lots of details are being ironed out. I'm learning a lot by just reading them. As we all know, "discussion" has its roots in Latin, discutere -> quatere -> quatio, to agitate, excite, harass Discussions should be like this!
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      09-07-2012, 05:16 PM   #18
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More comments:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
Ok reading over the review.

But gentlemen, this is basically worthless. So what do we get? Dyno numbers, yay. We already had those didn't we?

What, paragraphs on the shipping? Glad Vishnu mastered the art of boxing their parts up and sending them to someone.

So what? Without 1/4 mile times for a customer it is pointless. Who cares? All we have is Shiv's 1/4 mile run still. I don't care how pretty the packiginng is, I don't care how nice the guy on the phone is, show me the 1/4 mile time or don't waste my time with a pointless novel.

Plus, in all honesty, how much faith do you put into a review of someone who is sponsored specifically because they are writing the review? And they omit the most important factor in that review which is supporting Shiv's own run.

This review reads like a product brochure not what enthusiasts want to see.
FBIS made it clear that he will conduct high speed instrumented tests on the track, not on the road due to safely/legality concerns. And that will come later. I don't particularly blame him not wanting to go to 130mph on a public road. I don't particularly like doing it either. Fortunately, Mexico borders with CA Still, he has provided plenty of information. If it's not what you wanted, either wait or just ignore the review. It looks like many people enjoyed it regardless of whether it had drag strip/vbox results or now. But a little birdy has told me that his vbox results (100-200kph) are faster than mine


Quote:
Originally Posted by leo985i View Post
You changed my mind. Very well said! Give me some $#@!ING 1/4 MILES NUMBERS!!!! or 60-130. People seriously buy these kits to drive the cars like pussies? Do they just drive around the city? Or keep their rides garaged all day? Haven't even seen a video racing someone else in Mexico, other than Shiv at El Toro. I thought there was a couple more people that have this kit. No other videos from customers?
You've seen plenty of videos racing up to 160+mph at legal events (Shift Sector airway events). And you will see a few more videos in November from other single turbo cars at the next event. There is a reason we some people don't post street racing videos. It's not hard to understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sticky View Post
If we are going to get logs and data the data should be with the kit used to the max. On a hot day, in the staging lanes, show me what it does. Show me if it can do repeat runs in hot california summer weather. Show me how the cooling is holding up, the meth, etc., when it is run HARD.

I'm glad the kit holds up driving to the grocery store and his subjective views are nice but the real hard data people are clamoring for is still absent. Is it because the numbers won't match what Shiv himself did? Well, now we have to wonder.
I don't believe FBIS uses his 700bhp single turbo car exclusively for grocery runs. At least judging by the videos he posted. And his car makes considerably more power than mine did when I ran a 10.8 in my first and last run of the day before driving 400m to Bimmerfest a few months ago. So yes, his car will run 10s quite easily assuming it gets prepped accordingly (basically, running slicks). But no one will know until it happens. Give him and everyone else time to do what they want to WITH THEIR CAR. It's not your car. They don't owe you anything. Or wait until Novemeber when several single turbo cars show up to race at the Shift Sector event. It will be a fun day. Just like the last one we went to when we debuted the single turbo on my personal car. Come, watch and race.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lulz_m3 View Post
I think the manifold looks like ass. I would like to see better merges and larger piping
One thing I would like to see more is if lulz_m3 knows anything about exhaust manifold design. Better merges? Larger piping?
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      09-07-2012, 05:32 PM   #19
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Props to you guys for making this setup work while making make badass numbers.

I love all the handicaps that want a single turbo setup but talk mad shit about it when it's finally out on the market. lol Half of these people asking all these dumb ass questions are more then likely not the people in the market for such a setup..
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      09-07-2012, 05:46 PM   #20
Elliott@DetailAddict
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I'd love to run the setup. Period. (and that's coming from a happy JB4 owner )
Good work Shiv! Let me know what estimated cost would be?
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      09-07-2012, 05:55 PM   #21
tmo335tt
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All I can say is that the computer jockeys that live on this forum and run their mouths better be at shift sector...

I will pay your race fee if any of you can get your RB's or whatever twin upgrades you may have, to outrun Shiv's single turbo car.
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      09-07-2012, 05:59 PM   #22
Supracg135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmo335tt View Post
All I can say is that the computer jockeys that live on this forum and run their mouths better be at shift sector...

I will pay your race fee if any of you can get your RB's or whatever twin upgrades you may have, to outrun Shiv's single turbo car.
Agreed -- some pure clean races is a great idea, no numbers or different conditions, just line up a RB car vs shivs car or any vishnu single and see the turnout
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