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      09-15-2012, 11:22 PM   #1
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Vishnu/FFTEC Flex-Fuel Kit Installation, Results & Driving Impressions

Preface
Well it's no secret that I have switched to Procede in preparation for a single turbo next month, and while I wait, I decided to get the Flex-Fuel kit to hold me over. While I am in a unique position to offer a much needed comparison between JB4/Cobb(+Protune)/Procede, it would not be fair to do so since I have only been running the Procede with E85. That being said, there are a few things I will touch on.

Installation
One of the biggest benefits of Vishnu and FFTEC working together on this is the actual sensor bracket itself. I just love things that mount in OEM spots as if they were meant to be there. The bracket mounts to an existing spot on the driver's side strut tower, and the sensor cable runs through the factory cable management shroud. Other than the color of the bracket (which I hope to get anodized black), it looks like a standard option if you didn't know better.

Results
As I mentioned in another thread, I do not have a 91 pump gas Procede baseline to compare to. I came to the shop with E85 in the tank because we were curious to do a run with the COBB E85 map before I removed it. The runs were done on FFTEC's Mustang, which Ferruccio just recorded a 260awhp baseline on his 335i xDrive. This is not meant to be an excuse, but until I empty out my tank and go back with 91 octane, it's all I have. On a 48% mix of E85+91, we hit 418rwhp/417rwtq.

Benefits
While some people may think it's silly to use a sensor to do "basic math", there are a couple unqiue benfits of running the Flex-Fuel kit. First off, E85 is not always a consistent percentage, it can vary from location to location and during seasonal changes. Secondly, the ability to run 100% and the results from it are amazing (or as Shiv calls it, the bee's knees). I have been driving the past few days starting with 68% and now pretty much 100% after filling up again with pure E85. And of course, if I find myself away from home and have to use 91, I don't have to worry about anything.

Impressions
First off, Shiv spoiled me a little by taking me for a ride while it was at 48%. If you've ever had the opportunity to ride with him, you'll know what I mean when I say "holy shit". My first thoughts were, I had no idea my car could do that. I have been stuck in the 350rwhp for a year and a half now, and when we first pulled out, I didn't think what I felt was possible without upgraded turbos. Now granted, being the passenger is always more exhilarating, so I was curious to see how big of a difference it was in the driver's seat.

It is an amazing feeling to get sucked into the seat and feel the rush of acceleration. The biggest improvement in my eyes is just how much it wants to go from a roll. When I'm around 3500-4000 and I feather the pedal a little, there is just this sensation that it's going to pull hard every time. And from high speed rolls (50-60mph) I still can't get over the immediate response. Twice now I broke traction at that speed, but when it hooks, it pushes me back - one of the best feelings I've had in my car. Needless to say, there is no hype here, it feels f*cking awesome. The stock turbos will still start to drop at about 6400, but I've never felt it run this strong in the upper RPM range.

Procede
As I already stated, this is not going to be my full comparative review. However, there are a couple things I've noticed since switching that I find to be obvious improvements. First off is the throttle feel. I was debating talking about this, since part of this comes down to personal preference, but I'd still like to share my thoughts. I was running the stock throttle maps from COBB, but the Procede, in a sense, feels more predictable. Not really the way the COBB linear maps felt, it just feels better under my foot. The other difference I've noticed is shifting. One thing that always seemed to plague me was hard shifting, especially if I was slowing down to a stop, but then having the light turn green and getting back on it. A lot of times it would shift very hard and lurch forward. So far, it has been shifting much smoother and more predictable under DS mode. There may be a little less torque till 3000, but it is much more daily drivable in my opinion.

Summary
No matter what tune you have, E85 is absolutely worth trying out. If you have a pump near you, I highly recommend it. If you have a Procede, the Flex-Fuel kit is an amazing addition to get the most out of it.
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      09-15-2012, 11:41 PM   #2
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Awesome review, skinrock! I got the exact same feeling with my car. I had no idea it could do what it is doing right now. It's just crazy the way it forces me back into my seat. As a passenger, I just am not prepared for it, and, when looking ahead, I have to refocus my eyes so quickly.

I have not run on 91 octane yet, since the tune. However, I will probably be doing that, eventually. Shiv told me that, because the FlexFuel kit includes a DME flash, the stock 91 octane tune will feel much better.

I totally agree with the throttle maps. I was iffy about them at first, because, yes, it does feel slightly different under normal driving. There's a definite urgency there. I've been thinking about it, and I'd say that, at least before the turbos *really* start kicking in, Shiv's maps feel far more N/A than a stock tune. It's like I can just demand torque with ease, as if the car had a massive N/A V8 engine.


Also, are you still on the stock clutch with these numbers?
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      09-16-2012, 12:05 AM   #3
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I totally agree with the throttle maps. I was iffy about them at first, because, yes, it does feel slightly different under normal driving. There's a definite urgency there. I've been thinking about it, and I'd say that, at least before the turbos *really* start kicking in, Shiv's maps feel far more N/A than a stock tune. It's like I can just demand torque with ease, as if the car had a massive N/A V8 engine.

Also, are you still on the stock clutch with these numbers?
I have a 6AT, no transmission upgrades except Quaife LSD of course.
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      09-16-2012, 12:14 AM   #4
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I have a 6AT, no transmission upgrades except Quaife LSD of course.
Ah, 6AT
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      09-17-2012, 12:30 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skinrock View Post
Preface
Well it's no secret that I have switched to Procede in preparation for a single turbo next month, and while I wait, I decided to get the Flex-Fuel kit to hold me over. While I am in a unique position to offer a much needed comparison between JB4/Cobb(+Protune)/Procede, it would not be fair to do so since I have only been running the Procede with E85. That being said, there are a few things I will touch on.

Installation
One of the biggest benefits of Vishnu and FFTEC working together on this is the actual sensor bracket itself. I just love things that mount in OEM spots as if they were meant to be there. The bracket mounts to an existing spot on the driver's side strut tower, and the sensor cable runs through the factory cable management shroud. Other than the color of the bracket (which I hope to get anodized black), it looks like a standard option if you didn't know better.

Results
As I mentioned in another thread, I do not have a 91 pump gas Procede baseline to compare to. I came to the shop with E85 in the tank because we were curious to do a run with the COBB E85 map before I removed it. The runs were done on FFTEC's Mustang, which Ferruccio just recorded a 260awhp baseline on his 335i xDrive. This is not meant to be an excuse, but until I empty out my tank and go back with 91 octane, it's all I have. On a 48% mix of E85+91, we hit 418rwhp/417rwtq.

Benefits
While some people may think it's silly to use a sensor to do "basic math", there are a couple unqiue benfits of running the Flex-Fuel kit. First off, E85 is not always a consistent percentage, it can vary from location to location and during seasonal changes. Secondly, the ability to run 100% and the results from it are amazing (or as Shiv calls it, the bee's knees). I have been driving the past few days starting with 68% and now pretty much 100% after filling up again with pure E85. And of course, if I find myself away from home and have to use 91, I don't have to worry about anything.

Impressions
First off, Shiv spoiled me a little by taking me for a ride while it was at 48%. If you've ever had the opportunity to ride with him, you'll know what I mean when I say "holy shit". My first thoughts were, I had no idea my car could do that. I have been stuck in the 350rwhp for a year and a half now, and when we first pulled out, I didn't think what I felt was possible without upgraded turbos. Now granted, being the passenger is always more exhilarating, so I was curious to see how big of a difference it was in the driver's seat.

It is an amazing feeling to get sucked into the seat and feel the rush of acceleration. The biggest improvement in my eyes is just how much it wants to go from a roll. When I'm around 3500-4000 and I feather the pedal a little, there is just this sensation that it's going to pull hard every time. And from high speed rolls (50-60mph) I still can't get over the immediate response. Twice now I broke traction at that speed, but when it hooks, it pushes me back - one of the best feelings I've had in my car. Needless to say, there is no hype here, it feels f*cking awesome. The stock turbos will still start to drop at about 6400, but I've never felt it run this strong in the upper RPM range.

Procede
As I already stated, this is not going to be my full comparative review. However, there are a couple things I've noticed since switching that I find to be obvious improvements. First off is the throttle feel. I was debating talking about this, since part of this comes down to personal preference, but I'd still like to share my thoughts. I was running the stock throttle maps from COBB, but the Procede, in a sense, feels more predictable. Not really the way the COBB linear maps felt, it just feels better under my foot. The other difference I've noticed is shifting. One thing that always seemed to plague me was hard shifting, especially if I was slowing down to a stop, but then having the light turn green and getting back on it. A lot of times it would shift very hard and lurch forward. So far, it has been shifting much smoother and more predictable under DS mode. There may be a little less torque till 3000, but it is much more daily drivable in my opinion.

Summary
No matter what tune you have, E85 is absolutely worth trying out. If you have a pump near you, I highly recommend it. If you have a Procede, the Flex-Fuel kit is an amazing addition to get the most out of it.
Sounds good. Can you run higher ethanol content with Procede than with Cobb?
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      09-17-2012, 12:44 AM   #6
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yes you can actually because I spoke with a gentleman from COBB the other day in Plano and he specifically said that they are not going to be supporting E85 tunes/blends whatsoever so you do it with your own risk....Kinda made me iffy about the whole COBB thing in general as I'm running JB4 (15ohm mode) FBO+RB's+30%E85/93. Honestly the car pulls like a freaking rocket ship so I took Terrys advice and was going to grab a COBB AP and have him email me HIS map to download to the COBB and then into the car... Need to have a chat and find out whats going on there...
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      09-17-2012, 12:52 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jippii ensio View Post
Sounds good. Can you run higher ethanol content with Procede than with Cobb?
You can run 100% on the Procede. I'm not sure what the limit is on COBB, they offer an E30 OTS map, but of course people have been playing around with ATR to be more aggressive. You'd have to ask in a COBB thread to see where they're at.
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      09-17-2012, 06:04 AM   #8
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Congrats and nice write up
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      09-17-2012, 06:06 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skinrock View Post
You can run 100% on the Procede. I'm not sure what the limit is on COBB, they offer an E30 OTS map, but of course people have been playing around with ATR to be more aggressive. You'd have to ask in a COBB thread to see where they're at.
would love to see someone running 100% E85 for some time without meth to see how the fuel system holds up. Would be great if it does.
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      09-17-2012, 10:25 AM   #10
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I have a 6AT, no transmission upgrades except Quaife LSD of course.
Who did your Quaife Install? I am also Local to SF Bay.
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      09-17-2012, 10:38 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enrita View Post
would love to see someone running 100% E85 for some time without meth to see how the fuel system holds up. Would be great if it does.
I believe Brian in MN has been working on that for a while. From Brian's and Shiv's research, about 50% ethanol is where you get some really high power/torque numbers, but I think Shiv also said stock turbos won't see much if any benefit over 60%. The original FF thread logs and dyno runs were done with a 50/50 E85/93pump (E10) that measured 60% ethanol via the fuel comp sensor.
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      09-17-2012, 11:17 AM   #12
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Skinrock, thanks for posting.
What does your Short Term Fuel Trim look like on straight E85?
I've ran as much as E60 and am nowhere near the LPFP's capacity...
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      09-17-2012, 12:05 PM   #13
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On the Procede, you would look at the CAN Fuel Trim Bank 1 and 2. BMW doesn't label it STFT and LTFT like other manufacturers do. There isn't really a long term fuel trim in the MSD80/81 ECU, AFAIK, due to the wide-bands reporting fuel trims in real time. Older cars with narrow-band pre-cat O2s have "idle additive" and "part throttle multiplicative" per BMW terminology.
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      09-17-2012, 12:08 PM   #14
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Who did your Quaife Install? I am also Local to SF Bay.
Edge Motorworks in Dublin, they are right down the street from me.

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Originally Posted by nitehawk View Post
Skinrock, thanks for posting.
What does your Short Term Fuel Trim look like on straight E85?
I've ran as much as E60 and am nowhere near the LPFP's capacity...
I haven't had a chance to personally do any logging, but I know Shiv took it out and did a good amount of monitoring and everything was looking good. I don't recall exactly where things were at - I'm not sure if he remembers.
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      09-17-2012, 12:09 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesM3M5 View Post
I believe Brian in MN has been working on that for a while. From Brian's and Shiv's research, about 50% ethanol is where you get some really high power/torque numbers, but I think Shiv also said stock turbos won't see much if any benefit over 60%. The original FF thread logs and dyno runs were done with a 50/50 E85/93pump (E10) that measured 60% ethanol via the fuel comp sensor.
50% ethanol does make some good power. But 80-90% E85 supports more power for sure. Even with stock turbos. The only caveat is that you LPFP be in good shape and the pre-pump filter be relatively clean.
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      09-17-2012, 12:11 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
50% ethanol does make some good power. But 80-90% E85 supports more power for sure. Even with stock turbos. The only caveat is that you LPFP be in good shape and the pre-pump filter be relatively clean.
Is there a way to check?
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      09-17-2012, 12:13 PM   #17
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Is there a way to check?
Yes, run a tank full of straight e85 at full boost. If you throw a 10716 code, you either need to reduce boost or (preferably) replace your stock LPFP.
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      09-17-2012, 12:13 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Yes, run a tank full of straight e85 at full boost. If you throw a 10716 code, you either need to reduce boost or (preferably) replace your stock LPFP.
Ahh, ok thanks
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      09-17-2012, 12:18 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Yes, run a tank full of straight e85 at full boost. If you throw a 10716 code, you either need to reduce boost or (preferably) replace your stock LPFP.

Edit: youll need to run the car out to redline WOT if you want to test out your LPFP. If its not up to the task, it will throw that code and go into limp mode somewhere above 5000rpm.
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      09-17-2012, 01:15 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesM3M5 View Post
On the Procede, you would look at the CAN Fuel Trim Bank 1 and 2. BMW doesn't label it STFT and LTFT like other manufacturers do. There isn't really a long term fuel trim in the MSD80/81 ECU, AFAIK, due to the wide-bands reporting fuel trims in real time. Older cars with narrow-band pre-cat O2s have "idle additive" and "part throttle multiplicative" per BMW terminology.
Actually, I believe our MSD80/81 ECUs do have the ability.
I am able to log both STFT and LTFT's with Cobb.
I'm guessing the CAN Fuel Trim reporting in Procede is the short term...
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      09-17-2012, 01:18 PM   #21
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Shiv, you said "Replace your stock lpfp", do you mean with another stock one or is there an upgraded one? I get maxed fuel trims and limp modes just running 30% e85, I'm fairly certain my LPFP isn't up to the task.

Anyone know the BMW Part number for LPFP?
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      09-17-2012, 01:27 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitehawk View Post
Actually, I believe our MSD80/81 ECUs do have the ability.
I am able to log both STFT and LTFT's with Cobb.
I'm guessing the CAN Fuel Trim reporting in Procede is the short term...
BMW just doesn't call them STFT and LTFT, just idle additive and part throttle multiplicative. I don't think there's any real "long term" fuel trim in a traditional sense. I believe Cobb just ported the terminology over, but I may be mistaken. They may be able to see more than my Autologic diagnostic tool. It's all semantics, not trying to derail the thread.
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