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      09-24-2012, 03:21 AM   #1
BanziBarn
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Surely cars can't keep on getting faster forever?

So, it seems that every time Bimmer re-do a car, it's quicker than last one.

The new 330d for example - the 0-60 is well below 6 seconds, that's a big jump from the e90 and nearly as quick as some of the older M3s.

But surely this can't go on for ever? I mean, if they reduce the 0-60 by the same amount next time, you're bordering on the sub 5 second mark!

There must come a point where performance will no longer be able to be used as a selling point of a new model because it won't physically be possible to go quicker than before.

When do you think that will happen?
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      09-24-2012, 03:25 AM   #2
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Hopefully not for a long while.
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      09-24-2012, 03:33 AM   #3
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I think cars can keep getting quicker and quicker as technology improves the ability to do this both in terms of manufacturing and driver aids. More and more driver aids will be introduced to enable your average driver to be able to handle this without killing themselves. The driver becomes ever more detached from the actual experience of driving with every new generation of a particular model in my opinion.

One day we will all wake up and think "WTF are we doing?" then will go and buy an e30 M3 which nowadays doesn't look quick on paper but is arguably much more rewarding to drive than any modern BMW.
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      09-24-2012, 03:39 AM   #4
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The new 320 does 0-60 in 7.6sec...that's the same time as my 325i!!!
But the thing to note is that as they get quicker they are also getting more economical. I don't think the goal for engineers is purely faster cars, I think its making internal combustion as efficient as possible. This is being pushed along greatly buy the 'eco sensitive' nature of society more so than the desire for fast cars.
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      09-24-2012, 03:40 AM   #5
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It's not much quicker. (I'd argue no quicker than a LCi E90 330d) 0-100mph in 14.2 seconds is still slower than the previous Gen 335d which is 13.4-13.5..

My "old" M3 is 11.2 LOL.
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      09-24-2012, 03:40 AM   #6
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But there will be a limit. I mean, surely it'll never get as low as 2 seconds for a 330d!

I reckon the emphasis will change much more heavily towards economy once the performance gets to a point where no one would need anything quicker.
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      09-24-2012, 03:42 AM   #7
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The emphasis is already on economy - hence why M Cars will be going Turbo rather than NA with big CC's.
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      09-24-2012, 03:57 AM   #8
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But I mean, really heavily that way - with bigger increases in economy at each update.

But I suppose, you'll then get a limit on the economy side too - so you'll have cars which are super fast and super economical leaving the makers no choice but to reply only the look of the vehicle and other specs.
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      09-24-2012, 03:58 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BanziBarn View Post
But there will be a limit. I mean, surely it'll never get as low as 2 seconds for a 330d!

I reckon the emphasis will change much more heavily towards economy once the performance gets to a point where no one would need anything quicker.
Once BMW start fitting Photon Power Engines with Warp mode they should be down to sub 1 second 0 - 100 & will come with a free G suit
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      09-24-2012, 04:56 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IanS100 View Post
Once BMW start fitting Photon Power Engines with Warp mode they should be down to sub 1 second 0 - 100 & will come with a free G suit
LOL - yeah

E90 330d 231bhp combined is 42mpg 0-60 6.7 seconds
E90 330d 245 bhp combined is 49.9mpg 0-60 6.1 seconds
F30 330d 258bhp combined is 57.6mpg 0-60 5.6 seconds

1 second drop within one generation. Are we looking at 4.6 seconds next time around?
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      09-24-2012, 04:57 AM   #11
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While the increase in performance will inevitably slow (diminishing returns), it is the decrease in reaction times when everybody is flying about with that increased acceleration that will be the limiting factor.

Decades earlier, with slower cars, the thinking time was much greater. Overtaking much slower. No chance of a car on the other side of the road rounding a bend and hurtling towards you at warp speed. Forces and momentum were less.

Imagine if every car could accelerate sub 6 seconds. And it was used, with most relying on the electronic stabilty controls to make them feel safe. With the "quality" of driving as it is now .... shudder

The limiting factor will probably not be mechanical .... but the base line driving ability of the general public. Unless the safety systems can truely keep pace. To the point where the cars are doing most of the driving.

D.
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      09-24-2012, 05:04 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BanziBarn View Post
LOL - yeah

E90 330d 231bhp combined is 42mpg 0-60 6.7 seconds
E90 330d 245 bhp combined is 49.9mpg 0-60 6.1 seconds
F30 330d 258bhp combined is 57.6mpg 0-60 5.6 seconds

1 second drop within one generation. Are we looking at 4.6 seconds next time around?
Of course it won't be, as it would be a bigger % in performance to gain which gets harder and harder the quicker you go.
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      09-24-2012, 05:10 AM   #13
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Quote:
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Of course it won't be, as it would be a bigger % in performance to gain which gets harder and harder the quicker you go.
Exactly, that's what I'm saying . So, the increases will get smaller and smaller until makers don't bother any more - which will be an interesting time because with the way it is now, I'm always keen to see what the next car can do - and it's what makes me want to upgrade!

Good point about the reaction times - I guess this is where the auto breaking etc will have to come in! We'll just end up not driving the thing in the end!
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      09-24-2012, 06:40 AM   #14
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There are 3 things driving the automobile industry

1. Market share and profit
2. Government and EU legislation
3. Costs and fuel efficiency

Engine development will continue to produce more power as a resuilt of research and engineers' ability to improve materials and develop new concepts for overcoming efficiency robbing limitations of fuel quality, weight, heat, exhaust emissions and noise. Currently the Internal Combustion engine has an efficiency of 15-20% with some extreme units getting to 30% so there's plenty of room for improvement. In today's economic, political and fossil fuel limited climate, you are going to see huge power increases from ever smaller and more efficient, clean burning engines.

If you think that the most powerful F1 cars of all time were 1.5 litre turbo units, its clear how much potential is still locked away in IC engines.

Instead of going for ever increasing performance, which would eventually attract political interference, the industry is already swinging to getting the same performance from ever cleaner, smaller, more efficient engines.

In F1, the old turbos were boost pressure limited to control BHP, in future expect fuel flow limits along with longevity issues (only so many engines per season, no refueling, limits on overall amount of fuel etc). This represents a drive towards increasingly cleaner and more fuel efficient engines.

So in the end I reckon you will see major increases in bhp per cc capacity and major decreases in the size of engines.
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      09-24-2012, 07:11 AM   #15
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I'd not thought of that.

So actually, we'll get to the point where the 330d won't get any faster because there won't be a 330d! So, the latest generation can do 0-60 in 5.6 - the next generation won't do it in any time because there won't be one. But the 320d will be doing sub 6 seconds instead!

In fact, if they never release a new 335d then that process will have started, with the 330d taking it's place.
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      09-24-2012, 08:34 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_3 View Post
While the increase in performance will inevitably slow (diminishing returns), it is the decrease in reaction times when everybody is flying about with that increased acceleration that will be the limiting factor.

Decades earlier, with slower cars, the thinking time was much greater. Overtaking much slower. No chance of a car on the other side of the road rounding a bend and hurtling towards you at warp speed. Forces and momentum were less.

Imagine if every car could accelerate sub 6 seconds. And it was used, with most relying on the electronic stabilty controls to make them feel safe. With the "quality" of driving as it is now .... shudder

The limiting factor will probably not be mechanical .... but the base line driving ability of the general public. Unless the safety systems can truely keep pace. To the point where the cars are doing most of the driving.

D.
Best post ever! The sad reality 30 years ago with these aids we have now in cars, accidents would be been news worthy events, not just another accident. The quality of drivers is getting worse and worse and the cars that have no real awareness of whats going on has to make up for poor driving abilitys.
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      09-24-2012, 11:00 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BanziBarn View Post
I'd not thought of that.

So actually, we'll get to the point where the 330d won't get any faster because there won't be a 330d! So, the latest generation can do 0-60 in 5.6 - the next generation won't do it in any time because there won't be one. But the 320d will be doing sub 6 seconds instead!

In fact, if they never release a new 335d then that process will have started, with the 330d taking it's place.
Yes, maybe the F30 330d is just a clever marketing exercise by BMW. ie the 330d is the new 335d? Single turbo, less power, but quicker (well, 0-60). Kind-of makes scene. Its 0-100 could well be slower than the old 335d (I've no idea whether it is or not), but most people that are not car savvy dont care and only look at the 0-60 and top speed.
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      09-24-2012, 11:09 AM   #18
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It is slower mate. It is nearly a second slower,

I agree though. Most numpties think 0-60 is the B all and end all.
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      09-24-2012, 12:12 PM   #19
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1 second difference from 0-100mph for 15-20mpg sounds like a trade off I'd like to make!

I'll be looking closely at used F30 330d's in a year or two..
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      09-25-2012, 03:56 AM   #20
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Non of the performance figures quoted are fast though are they. 0-60 in 6 seconds? Yawn. 0-100 in 10 seconds. Wake me when you get there.

Long way to go before a 4 door family BMW 3 series can be said to be fast.

Future is less weight - faster better economy and lower emissions without having to chase more power.

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      09-25-2012, 04:40 AM   #21
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Non of the performance figures quoted are fast though are they. 0-60 in 6 seconds? Yawn. 0-100 in 10 seconds. Wake me when you get there.

Long way to go before a 4 door family BMW 3 series can be said to be fast.

Future is less weight - faster better economy and lower emissions without having to chase more power.

Well, I think my 330 is quite fast
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      09-25-2012, 06:09 AM   #22
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I'll take you pillion on my GSXR1000 banzi. Your 330 won't feel fast then.....


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