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      09-28-2012, 06:14 PM   #1
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New to e90post. Meth injection?

Hello All:

I'm new to e90post...actually to any online forum. I have owned my E92 335i for several years and was always Mr. Practical. All my practicality would allow me was to run a Cobb Access Port. Several weeks ago I came to a crossroad, my turbos need to be replaced. After much soul searching I took the leap and ordered some Rob Beck turbos (hopefully to be delivered in a week or so). I started searching for supporting mods. I purchased some AR downpipes to go along with the upgraded turbo. I have searched the forum and not wanting to be “that guy” but I was wondering if individuals more knowledgeable than I may be able to assist. I am considering a Meth Injection Kit but a friend of mine told me that meth is not good setup to run using a Cobb Access Port because it is unable to manage any type of meth system. This could potentially cause damage to the engine if I am pushing it hard and run out of meth. I am a complete fool when it comes to these things and hope to get some information.

Thank you in Advance.
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      09-29-2012, 02:03 AM   #2
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You could always sell the Cobb tune and switch to Vishnu Procede tune which incorporates Meth injection(search Procede & meth). I would also think about upgrading your stock intercooler to ER Race fmic, Helix, ETS. Since you're gonna run more boost, temps will get hotter. Also, a new charge pipe with diverter valves or blow off valve would handle more boost safely.
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      09-30-2012, 09:03 PM   #3
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With the Procede, would I be able to turn off the codes thrown by the ECU for installing catless downpipes?
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      09-30-2012, 09:31 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateDrive View Post
With the Procede, would I be able to turn off the codes thrown by the ECU for installing catless downpipes?
You could switch to the JB4. I don't want to start a war about which tune is better, but I really like the UI of the JB4 (you can switch maps, read codes, delete codes, etc... all on the fly) and it is inexpensive compared to the other tunes on the market.

You might want to hold off on meth for now. A tune and catless DPs are a great start, but you can also look into an intake and FMIC for additional power if that's what you're after.
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      09-30-2012, 09:38 PM   #5
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Sell COBB, get a JB4 G5 (Advanced support for RB turbo's and Meth), invest in a charge pipe with meth bung, FMIC, and get a trunk meth tank.
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      09-30-2012, 09:40 PM   #6
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I've actually researched this in the past while as well and I've decided on getting the Aquamist HFS-4 kit. It has everything required to be safely run with Cobb including an integrated failsafe which turns off boost in case of any methanol flow issues. It seems that many Cobb guys already run this kit and some local cars that have had the BMS WW kit and the Coolingmist have recently switched over too due to leaks and flow problems they had with those. Its more expensive but like anything else you get what you pay for and methanol isn't something I'm willing to skimp on.
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      09-30-2012, 09:41 PM   #7
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Keep the COBB, get an HFS-4 meth kit, call Pro Tuning Freaks, call it a day.
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      09-30-2012, 10:25 PM   #8
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I wouldn't drop COBB. That would be a big mistake. Take my word for it. I've tried other tunes and I have friend who have them and they bought COBB because we got to compare hand in hand.

I run COBB with E85 and meth. I have the HFS-4 kit. It's a great kit, very high quality. Runs off IDC and boost, and has a failsafe in case you run out of meth.

With a custom tune, you can also tailor the tune to your car and get great result. that's what I did and I'm very happy with where my car is right now.

goodluck
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      09-30-2012, 10:59 PM   #9
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Cobb handles meth just fine. Get a quality kit(Aquamist HFS-3 OR 4) and get a pro-tune or DIY a tune in ATR.


You're gonna hear a lot of crap from guys trying to convince you to jump ship to another tune because that's the tune they run. They usually have good intentions and are just offering advice based on their experiences(admittedly, some are just fanbois.) But the Cobb AP will do all you need so no need to sell it and spend money on another setup.
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      09-30-2012, 11:18 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90Company
Sell COBB, get a JB4 G5 (Advanced support for RB turbo's and Meth), invest in a charge pipe with meth bung, FMIC, and get a trunk meth tank.
This will be best for your RBs

Basically, youll be happy no matter what you do as long as you take the time to really learn your stuff and do things right

Last edited by nailer335; 10-01-2012 at 12:30 AM.
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      09-30-2012, 11:32 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ænema View Post
Cobb handles meth just fine. Get a quality kit(Aquamist HFS-3 OR 4) and get a pro-tune or DIY a tune in ATR.


You're gonna hear a lot of crap from guys trying to convince you to jump ship to another tune because that's the tune they run. They usually have good intentions and are just offering advice based on their experiences(admittedly, some are just fanbois.) But the Cobb AP will do all you need so no need to sell it and spend money on another setup.
I basically agree with this, but a mechanical fail-safe will never react as fast as the integrated meth setups with a piggy... works very well. I would suggest keeping Cobb, but add a piggy: Procede or JB. Plus the tuning flexibility is very nice, not having to run a meth map 100% of the time.
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      09-30-2012, 11:35 PM   #12
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+1 I fully agree with Marv and Ænema... And I'm pro Vishnu... You already have one of the best tunes on the market today and that combined with the Aquamist HFS-4 Injection System from Hawerton Engineering is truly your best option.

Like Ænema said, you really don't want to listen to the white noise from the people who are quick to tell you to jump tunes. Yes they have some options they are quick to point out, but did they tell you about all their shortcomings? I didn't think so!

So don't waste your money on jumping ship for a lesser tune. Good luck with your project. I'm sure it will be stupid fast when your finished.




Quote:
Originally Posted by marv85 View Post
I wouldn't drop COBB. That would be a big mistake. Take my word for it. I've tried other tunes and I have friend who have them and they bought COBB because we got to compare hand in hand.

I run COBB with E85 and meth. I have the HFS-4 kit. It's a great kit, very high quality. Runs off IDC and boost, and has a failsafe in case you run out of meth.

With a custom tune, you can also tailor the tune to your car and get great result. that's what I did and I'm very happy with where my car is right now.

goodluck
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ænema View Post
Cobb handles meth just fine. Get a quality kit(Aquamist HFS-3 OR 4) and get a pro-tune or DIY a tune in ATR.


You're gonna hear a lot of crap from guys trying to convince you to jump ship to another tune because that's the tune they run. They usually have good intentions and are just offering advice based on their experiences(admittedly, some are just fanbois.) But the Cobb AP will do all you need so no need to sell it and spend money on another setup.
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      10-01-2012, 09:36 AM   #13
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Meth is awesome. The hot ticket is either start with a JB4 or Procede, but the HFS4 from Aquamist is the one to get for Cobb. You could also stack the JB4 and Cobb with HFS4 system like many people already do. Don't use the WW tank, spend the time and few extra quid for a trunk mounted tank.

You will also need to tap the intercooler end tank (aftermarket FMIC, not the plastic stock IC) or get a chargepipe with meth bungs. The Vishnu and Aquamist kits need a special M8x0.75 tap for the bungs, or get the adapters with 1/4" pipe-thread.

It's not cheap, but I LOVE my Procede and PWM meth system. With the variable output injection valve, I use a gallon of mix every 2-3 weeks, 75% meth/25% distilled water.
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      10-01-2012, 11:37 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesM3M5 View Post

It's not cheap, but I LOVE my Procede and PWM meth system. With the variable output injection valve, I use a gallon of mix every 2-3 weeks, 75% meth/25% distilled water.

Not trying to sell anyone on Procede......but the meth flow injection output is one of the things Procede controls very well using the Aquamist PWM valve that is part of their kit.

Compare the part throttle position, boost and methflow plots on this datalog and see how closely they follow each other.
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      10-01-2012, 11:46 AM   #15
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I've heard great things about the procede and actually seen it first hand.

but the HFS-4 system is equally impressive and very tweakable. Does not only do boost but IDC as well, you can also control gain after threshold is triggered. IF you like you can do it to follow boost only, IDC only or leave it at default to follow both. Failsafe works great and can also be tweaked (not an ON/OFF failsafe)
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      10-01-2012, 02:55 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marv85 View Post
I've heard great things about the procede and actually seen it first hand.

but the HFS-4 system is equally impressive and very tweakable. Does not only do boost but IDC as well, you can also control gain after threshold is triggered. IF you like you can do it to follow boost only, IDC only or leave it at default to follow both. Failsafe works great and can also be tweaked (not an ON/OFF failsafe)
Does anyone have a log showing meth flow following boost / throttle / IDC with Cobb?

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      10-01-2012, 03:05 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilma View Post
Does anyone have a log showing meth flow following boost / throttle / IDC with Cobb?

HFS-4 has a gauge that shows you the meth flow and you can easily see it change with load... It also has debug hooks that shows you how to change the trigger point to make it follow either etc... Pretty easy and that's all you need really.

So yes you can know when your meth flowing and how much it is flowing, however since it is a standalone system it won't be through the COBB software like procede/JB4 since COBB isn't controlling meth. Meth has its own standalone controller.

not only can you know if meth is flowing or not and how it is flowing through the gauge with its Bar display, but logs captured by COBB also show reduced IATs so if you are really worried about gauge being wrong which if possible could happen on any meth kit since they all use a sensor to capture flow...

One more thing cool about this is when you run COBB + meth, you get to see timing corrections/actual timing on all cylinders. Meth has an uneven distribution, so you don't want to rely one readings from one cylinder to tune. I ran piggys, and to be honest with you having the benefit of seeing timing on different cylinders has been eye opening...

just my 2 cents
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      10-01-2012, 03:20 PM   #18
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Just get dual cone intakes downpipes and an intercooler and call it a day.
Once you want more power then get meth.
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      10-01-2012, 03:33 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marv85 View Post
HFS-4 has a gauge that shows you the meth flow and you can easily see it change with load... It also has debug hooks that shows you how to change the trigger point to make it follow either etc... Pretty easy and that's all you need really.

So yes you can know when your meth flowing and how much it is flowing, however since it is a standalone system it won't be through the COBB software like procede/JB4 since COBB isn't controlling meth. Meth has its own standalone controller.

not only can you know if meth is flowing or not and how it is flowing through the gauge with its Bar display, but logs captured by COBB also show reduced IATs etc...

One more thing cool about this is when you run COBB + meth, you get to see timing corrections/actual timing on all cylinders. Meth has an uneven distribution, so you don't want to rely one readings from one cylinder to tune. I ran piggys, and to be honest with you having the benefit of seeing timing on different cylinders has been eye opening...

just my 2 cents

Sorry - not buying it.

Yes meth has an uneven distribution.....so how is watching timing correction on all six cylinders going to even it out

You are just pissing in the wind now.

Lets be real.....you cannot tune meth flow by an led bar display.

A meth gauge does not show methflow against other loggable parameters on a datalog.

Don't mistake my comments for a lack of admiration for the HSF-4 kit and Jeff Howerton........but you can't escape the fact that meth is not integrated into a Cobb.

I have driven in a Cobb Pro-tuned car (non meth) and was very impressed.

Not knocking Cobb at all here.....just stating the obvious.....meth is not integrated into Cobb. It's a stand alone and you have no way to measure what the meth is doing other than how your butt feels and how pretty the led lights look.

Hardly scientific
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      10-01-2012, 03:46 PM   #20
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Integration is a term used loosely.
You can "integrate" meth into any tune.

However, true integration is a reactive and proactive system. Cobb does not currently have both, only the Piggies.

That being said, does it make a difference, perhaps not much. But interms of efficiency PROcede and their meth kit still does it better then the rest.

Keeping that in mind, not all of us need the best or want the best.

I personally ran a basic methanol kit, raced tons of cars, and smoked them, I had very happy logs and a excellent running car. I also did it for a fraction of the cost compared to other options out there. Did I know the other options are better and why, yes, but I did not find value in those options.

I think some people defend what they run too much without the realization that some people just dont need all the bells and whistles or perhaps some want all the bells and whistles and dont want to settle for "good enough". Sure, it is better, but some need to understand the value of certain things and what they need and want.

If you asked me today, unbiased, and said what should I run for a tune and methanol on this car if I want the best of the best, I would say PRocede and Vishnu PWM kit, without hesitation. <--- Strictly unbiased

If you said Jeff, what do you run, I would say a basic kit, with no failsafe.... (not the best), but it certainly worked.

For me, I like to keep things simple, sometimes these controllers and failsafes and other electronics fail, and leave you with a head ache and chasing your tale.

My simple on and off boost switch was 100% reliable. I can't say the same for other failsafes and controllers I've used over the years, which left me at a loss many times, not only financially, but on the road.

Oh and stay away from windshield washer methanol kits!!!

This is one reason I dont recommend methanol to amateurs , there is a lot to learn and know, and you need to understand the benefits and losses of all options.

Last edited by Jeff@TopGearSolutions; 10-01-2012 at 03:53 PM.
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      10-01-2012, 03:49 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilma View Post
Sorry - not buying it.

Yes meth has an uneven distribution.....so how is watching timing correction on all six cylinders going to even it out

You are just pissing in the wind now.

Lets be real.....you cannot tune meth flow by an led bar display.

A meth gauge does not show methflow against other loggable parameters on a datalog.

Don't mistake my comments for a lack of admiration for the HSF-4 kit and Jeff Howerton........but you can't escape the fact that meth is not integrated into a Cobb.

I have driven in a Cobb Pro-tuned car (non meth) and was very impressed.

Not knocking Cobb at all here.....just stating the obvious.....meth is not integrated into Cobb. It's a stand alone and you have no way to measure what the meth is doing other than how your butt feels and how pretty the led lights look.

Hardly scientific
did I say meth is integrated to COBB? I did say it is controlled by its own standalone controller.

you got my comment about uneven meth distribution the wrong way. Looking at individual timing correction will not even out meth distribution, it will however make for better tuning as you are tuning with the whole picture in mind not only one cylinder. Cylinder can be happy while cylinder 5 can be crapping out. How would you know that? you wouldn't .I like being able to see how my engine with all its cylinders are responding to tuning not one out of six cylinders.
Tuning based on readings from one cylinder -> Hardly Scientific

I was being very objective in stating the pros and cons of having HFS-4 + COBB. no need to post sigh and other crap. This is a forum, meaning we should be able to discuss different view points and this is mine. I did not bash your opinion even though I disagree with some points. I only posted about my system...


Both have ups and downs, I've seen all of them and I choose mine. but that's my opinion and you have yours. No need to get frustrated.

I never talked about how my car pulls so please don't assume stuff. I've been however to the track and I have seen what my car traps at (there was a procede and a JB4 car FBO + meth + E40)... I will post time slips when I get my car dynoed and write a review about my custom PTF.
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      10-01-2012, 03:53 PM   #22
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JEFF, it is not about defending or anything of that sort. The OP already has COBB, and is asking about meth. Should he sell COBB to move to a piggy for meth? Why would he do that?
I'm sharing my own experience with this. I've also ran piggies before, taken rides in FBO piggies with meth and E85, and saw them at the track. They are friends of mine and are on this forum. As a matter of fact, one of them already bought COBB after I let him try it...

I however don't want to the OP to be misled by crap into selling his tune to get integration crap that is available with any tune and is easy to install and all of that.

If he didn't have a tune and is asking then there is merit in arguing but it is not the case...
If I wanted to defend COBB and talk about the other tunes which I can do with data, I would be already banned LOL... I don't want that.
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