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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90/E92/E93 Marketplace (For Sale / Trade / Wanted) > Vendor Comments/Review/Feedback Forum > Unethical Vendor - BMS (Burger Motorsports bad review)



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      10-15-2012, 12:43 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by melloww22 View Post
If I were you I would gather all my discovery material, organize the facts in chronological order, and file a libel lawsuit. This type of vendor conduct is inexcusable and unethical... Those $6 per unit can result into $60k or more if you can prove your case... You may also file for infringement if you patent, copyright or trademark the product in question...
How does libel factor in?
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      10-15-2012, 12:52 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by divisionbell77 View Post
How does libel factor in?
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Originally Posted by JetBlackE46 View Post
BMS had first made a copy cat clutch stop (and also stole my install pictures) a year ago and called my design inferior as part of their marketing campaign.

I suspect this is the part. I'm not sure it qualifies as libel unless they were doing so in a way to intentionally defame JetBlack rather than the design.

I'm curious to see BMS step up with a response.
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      10-15-2012, 12:58 PM   #47
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I suggest banning BMS from being a board sponsor. Business is business, but such an unethical behavior should not be tolerated at all.

OP, try to reach BMW CCA and tell them your story. BMS needs to be taught a lesson.
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      10-15-2012, 01:06 PM   #48
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BMS would be stupid to answer a public forum as such regardless of fact and evidence its an no win debate. The design is straight forward and different is it from the screw in deisgn they originally had? Im not taking sides but how much alteration from the BMS screw in or other setups out there did you have to do to have the press in design? Again not taking sides but if the clutch stops are good from the 80's to the current ones where did the actual design originate? These are things that will come up if there is any form of law suit or questioning.

If it was publicly made and not patented then its anyone who has the time and money to make it their own. I had this happen to me on a different platform but same concept, I saw a need, saw a solution, adapted it to the car I had and started to make them for members. 6 months later the same company that makes the same device for other cars that emailed me the car I was driving had too small of a market to make them sent me a cease and decist letter that I was infringing on their patent on that very vehicle. I was allowed to sell the rest of the ones I hand built and stopped to avoid other actions. The reason I was able to sell out is becuase I had the digital media for that design out first so I could prove without doubt I was first on the scene for that platform.

Again not taking sides, but this happens all the time it shouldnt be any surprise at all. Think fruit of the loom and hanes. Take it out of what we personally see and take a look at those two companies. Same thing, always chasing a design and trying to one up it to sell. Pepsi and Coke (diet, cherry, vanilla, zero, clear) they all do it. Dont take it personally but its just business good or bad.

BMS should not add anything to this thread as all it will do is feed the fire and the trolls. You can look up threads of how great they are at the same time find many of them. Its a company out there to make money. Just happens its within our interests.
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      10-15-2012, 01:12 PM   #49
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So, you're a vendor selling a product without a sponsorship account, and you're unhappy that another vendor is selling a similar product for less money? Have you considered BMS is not the only one selling clutch stops? Adjustable clutch stops have been around as long as clutches have been around and anyone can take a trip to home depot and make their own identical clutch stop.

It seems you are just unhappy BMS is willing to sell the same part for less? Fair enough. Then lower your price!

Regarding the BMS eBay only stop with metal washers I know for a fact they added it after a customer told them you claimed theirs would fall apart. Which is of course untrue. But they disliked the way you were behaving and spreading bad information to their customers so they decided to just offer the cheaper version using metal washers for those who bought in to the BS.

On the photos, there are several employees over there and likely someone made a mistake. I'm sure they will resolve that ASAP. They have sold hundreds of clutch stops I'm sure they can come up with their own photos.

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      10-15-2012, 01:14 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofyguy View Post
BMS would be stupid to answer a public forum as such regardless of fact and evidence its an no win debate. The design is straight forward and different is it from the screw in deisgn they originally had? Im not taking sides but how much alteration from the BMS screw in or other setups out there did you have to do to have the press in design? Again not taking sides but if the clutch stops are good from the 80's to the current ones where did the actual design originate? These are things that will come up if there is any form of law suit or questioning.

If it was publicly made and not patented then its anyone who has the time and money to make it their own. I had this happen to me on a different platform but same concept, I saw a need, saw a solution, adapted it to the car I had and started to make them for members. 6 months later the same company that makes the same device for other cars that emailed me the car I was driving had too small of a market to make them sent me a cease and decist letter that I was infringing on their patent on that very vehicle. I was allowed to sell the rest of the ones I hand built and stopped to avoid other actions. The reason I was able to sell out is becuase I had the digital media for that design out first so I could prove without doubt I was first on the scene for that platform.

Again not taking sides, but this happens all the time it shouldnt be any surprise at all. Think fruit of the loom and hanes. Take it out of what we personally see and take a look at those two companies. Same thing, always chasing a design and trying to one up it to sell. Pepsi and Coke (diet, cherry, vanilla, zero, clear) they all do it. Dont take it personally but its just business good or bad.

BMS should not add anything to this thread as all it will do is feed the fire and the trolls. You can look up threads of how great they are at the same time find many of them. Its a company out there to make money. Just happens its within our interests.
The screw design was not by BMS, it was another vendor. I forget which one. But it was completely different and it needed a clip to install.

My design is plug and play like the oem design.

I don't have a patent so no real legal action can be taken at the moment and I accept that.

I'm just letting the community know of their unethical behavior. I'm sure many have had positive dealings with them and that's great.

I'm only stating facts so that the my fellow BMW enthusiasts are aware. I'm just a regular dude like you guys that love's BMWs and wanted to make something neat. It's just a spare time hobby.

If someone improves on the idea then great. Go for it.

But don't copy my design and steal my pictures and call it your own. Just because something is not illegal (no patent) doesn't mean it's right.
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      10-15-2012, 01:18 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JetBlackE46 View Post
Just because something is not illegal (no patent) doesn't mean it's right.
I completely agree.
I was going to try out their downpipes and get some other parts to get to FBO from them real soon, looks like I'm looking to spend my money elsewhere.
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      10-15-2012, 01:19 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
So, you're a vendor selling a product without a sponsorship account, and you're unhappy that another vendor is selling a similar product for less money? Have you considered BMS is not the only one selling clutch stops? Adjustable clutch stops have been around as long as clutches have been around and anyone can take a trip to home depot and make their own identical clutch stop.

It seems you are just unhappy BMS is willing to sell the same part for less? Fair enough. Then lower your price!

Regarding the BMS eBay only stop with metal washers I know for a fact they added it after a customer told them you claimed theirs would fall apart. Which is of course untrue. But they disliked the way you were behaving and spreading bad information to their customers so they decided to just offer the cheaper version using metal washers for those who bought in to the BS.

On the photos, there are several employees over there and likely someone made a mistake. I'm sure they will resolve that ASAP. They have sold hundreds of clutch stops I'm sure they can come up with their own photos.

Mike
I sell on eBay.

You yourself called my design "tacky" in another post and now BMS copied it.

Ok, anything is possible. It could be a "mistake". Someone may have accidentally copied and saved my photos while they were supposed to use their own camera to snap some shots. I can totally see how that can happen.
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      10-15-2012, 01:27 PM   #53
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Sorry to hear that OP... Sucks because Terry seemed alright when I bought my JB.

BUUUUTTTTTTTTTT, I have just completed a transaction with YOU for your innovation and cajones...

IDK how this will play out for you but I wish you all the best... Shitty deal with the guys at BMS though. We can come up with funny acronym for them to shame them into making this right

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      10-15-2012, 01:32 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofyguy View Post
The design is straight forward and different is it from the screw in deisgn they originally had?
Speaking only for myself, I was speaking to the alleged copyright violation of BMS using the OP's images without permission.

BMS is certainly in a difficult position; not responding within this thread leaves one side of the story in people's minds. Responding to the thread risks turning it into a flame-fest. Tough call, neither choice is a good one.
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      10-15-2012, 01:41 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpb View Post
Speaking only for myself, I was speaking to the alleged copyright violation of BMS using the OP's images without permission.

BMS is certainly in a difficult position; not responding within this thread leaves one side of the story in people's minds. Responding to the thread risks turning it into a flame-fest. Tough call, neither choice is a good one.
They did reply....

Apparently use of OP's pics was a "mistake".
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      10-15-2012, 01:50 PM   #56
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thats low
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      10-15-2012, 01:54 PM   #57
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BMS is banned from being a board sponsor. Mike is their surrogate on here and in my opinion should be banned as well because he lets Terry use his account to post. Furthermore Mike masquerades as an independent retailer when he clearly has a vested interest in BMS.

BTW, that was an absolute inane response, Terry. Do you think anyone believes you used that picture by mistake?
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      10-15-2012, 01:57 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofyguy View Post
If it was publicly made and not patented then its anyone who has the time and money to make it their own. I had this happen to me on a different platform but same concept, I saw a need, saw a solution, adapted it to the car I had and started to make them for members. 6 months later the same company that makes the same device for other cars that emailed me the car I was driving had too small of a market to make them sent me a cease and decist letter that I was infringing on their patent on that very vehicle. I was allowed to sell the rest of the ones I hand built and stopped to avoid other actions.
It seems to me that you have been bullied by this company. You had all the right to make and sell your device, but you decided to stop because they threatened you with some vague patent. I understand you folding to such pressure, as for an individual, legal cost can spiral out of control and make you lose more money than you can afford, even if you end up winning the legal battle. But to me, this is a sign that patenting is a dysfunctional process. On the other hand, without patents, the sad story of the op repeats again and again. Tough choice between two evils, enabling copycats, or enabling innovation crushers.
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      10-15-2012, 01:58 PM   #59
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LMAO using someone else's photo was a "mistake."
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      10-15-2012, 02:05 PM   #60
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That sucks. It sucks more too because you don't have a patent. Either way, it's a shotty thing to do. Btw, I have YOUR clutch stop. Gf ordered it for me after I got the car this year. You were pleasant to deal with and I got it quickly, even being in Canada. Plus it was SO easy and quick to install. Makes a huge difference to the clutch feel when double clutching and matching revs. Best mod, bang-for-the buck. Makes driving easier.

Sorry dude. I agree about serving them with a DMCA notice though. The pics are your property
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      10-15-2012, 02:06 PM   #61
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Sorry to hear OP. Hope all works out in your favor
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      10-15-2012, 02:13 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
So, you're a vendor selling a product without a sponsorship account, and you're unhappy that another vendor is selling a similar product for less money? Have you considered BMS is not the only one selling clutch stops? Adjustable clutch stops have been around as long as clutches have been around and anyone can take a trip to home depot and make their own identical clutch stop.

It seems you are just unhappy BMS is willing to sell the same part for less? Fair enough. Then lower your price!

Regarding the BMS eBay only stop with metal washers I know for a fact they added it after a customer told them you claimed theirs would fall apart. Which is of course untrue. But they disliked the way you were behaving and spreading bad information to their customers so they decided to just offer the cheaper version using metal washers for those who bought in to the BS.

On the photos, there are several employees over there and likely someone made a mistake. I'm sure they will resolve that ASAP. They have sold hundreds of clutch stops I'm sure they can come up with their own photos.

Mike
A third-party vendor jumping in to take sides in this? Not a good idea.
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      10-15-2012, 02:17 PM   #63
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^He's not a third party vendor. He just plays one on TV

Also in defense of the OP, he hasn't been actively marketing his product on this forum without being a sponsor. He's simply used those those links to provide proof of blatant copying.
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      10-15-2012, 02:20 PM   #64
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      10-15-2012, 02:21 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laguna Seca Blue View Post
^He's not a third party vendor.
I clearly don't have enough background on this (and I saw your post above), but at the least Mike's trying to maintain the appearance of being independent. Given the effort to maintain appearances as such, it seems a decidedly BAD idea for him to chime in like this.
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      10-15-2012, 02:25 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttribe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laguna Seca Blue View Post
^He's not a third party vendor.
I clearly don't have enough background on this (and I saw your post above), but at the least Mike's trying to maintain the appearance of being independent. Given the effort to maintain appearances as such, it seems a decidedly BAD idea for him to chime in like this.
He does it all the time. That's why anyone whose been on these boards long enough know's he's not independent. It's all part and parcel of BMS' extremely shady business practices.
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