E90Post
 


Extreme Power House
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90/E92/E93 Marketplace (For Sale / Trade / Wanted) > Vendor Comments/Review/Feedback Forum > Unethical Vendor - BMS (Burger Motorsports bad review)



Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      10-15-2012, 04:15 PM   #89
JuppiOne
Captain
 
Drives: everyone crazy
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: MO

Posts: 691
iTrader: (4)

surprise a vendor will actually do that to make a few $, lets say BMS manage to sell 5000 of these and make $5 each, thats 25k in the pocket, now, all these posts, i think their damages worth a whole lot more than the money they made (or would have made), bad business decision in their part.

granted, the product itself isn't patented, so no law is broken for copying the design, but using others pictures as their own? really, at least take your own pictures! that alone says how much confidence BMS has in their "own" products.

shame
JuppiOne is offline  
0
      10-15-2012, 04:40 PM   #90
Joe-
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 07 E92 335i
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Greenwich CT

Posts: 520
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JetBlackE46 View Post
Hello, my name is Nelson and I’ve been an avid BMW enthusiast for many years now. A few years ago I saw that many E90 manual transmissions owners wanted an easy to install clutch stop for their vehicles. I was able to design and develop such a product after many months of R&D. I began to sell these clutch stops on eBay (ID: pickyeater334) as a hobby. I pride myself on selling a quality product and giving each customer the same service I would expect as a fellow BMW enthusiast. If you’ve dealt with me before, I thank you and I’m sure you can attest to both the quality of my design and to my prompt service.

BMS – not a BIMMERPOST sponsor, but a company I once considered “reputable” has stolen the pictures in my listing and called it their own. I assume they’ve copied my design exactly.

Here’s a link to my eBay listing:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/230519560074...84.m1555.l2649

Here’s a link to the BMS listing using my pictures:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251167551669...84.m1423.l2649

The worse part of it is that, BMS had first made a copy cat clutch stop (and also stole my install pictures) a year ago and called my design inferior as part of their marketing campaign. But now they’re marketing my design as more “sturdy” and only selling it on eBay and undercutting me on price.

I think it’s crazy for a vendor to copy someone else’s product with something inferior and call it better. Then when customers realize that the original (designed by me) is in fact superior, they go ahead and copy it exact and now say what they’re selling is great. Is it all about $$$ and what they’re saying is all marketing BS?

Here’s a link to their first copy cat clutch stop by BMS:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/250989235114...84.m1423.l2649

It’s basically the same design as mine but they used rubber adjustment shims instead of metal. I’m sure many of you have purchased the BMS stopper and are happy with it and that’s great. After all it is based on my design. I’m not going to get into it here but if you search you’ll find that users do in fact find my design with the metal adjustment shims to be more solid feeling or complain that they didn’t feel much of a difference when they installed the BMS one. Many have switched over to my stopper after trying the BMS one for several months. I’ve been told they wish they knew about my original one first.

If BMS reads this and decides to delete or edit their listings, it’s ok because I’ve already archived those pages. To me it’s pretty shady business practice. I’ve already contacted them and expressed my concerns but they basically said so what and they had no knowledge of using my pictures.

The “right” thing to do would be for them to stop selling these clutch stops and stop using my pictures.
I just want my fellow enthusiasts to know the type of unethical behavior this particular vendor is capable of.

BMS is welcome to join in this thread to say they didn't copy my design and didn't have any knowledge of using my pictures as part of their promotional materials.
Yeah bought one of your stops last month -devilpain. You make a great product!
Joe- is offline  
0
      10-15-2012, 04:42 PM   #91
ttribe
First Lieutenant
 
ttribe's Avatar
 
Drives: '09 E93 335i
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Posts: 361
iTrader: (0)

There seems to be a key straw man in Terry's response (posted above) - namely, the notion that the OP claimed to "invent" the clutch stop. As a matter of fact, the OP stated otherwise in the first post of this thread. Is no one actually reading what others are posting?
__________________
2012+ 09 E93 335i - Space Gray, N54, Sport, Premium, Comfort, Logic7, Nav Mods - Reflectors, LUX, Pedals, M3 Spoiler, Black Grilles, Macht Schnell, Aero, ESS, RE760
2011-12 07 E60 M5 - Indy Red

Last edited by ttribe; 10-15-2012 at 04:50 PM.
ttribe is offline   United_States
0
      10-15-2012, 05:02 PM   #92
JetBlackE46
Private
 
JetBlackE46's Avatar
 
Drives: ///M
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Bay Area

Posts: 88
iTrader: (0)

Mike, thanks for posting Terry's response.

1) Read more carefully. I never said I invented the clutch stop. It’s been around for years. I said I invented the “easy to install E90 clutch stop” and I invented the first “easy to install adjustable E90 clutch stop”. I’m sure you’ve never seen my clutch stop before you walked into home depot. I guess that’s how you found my install pictures…which by the way you’re still using. Just because you darkened the red circle around the stopper doesn’t mean it’s your picture. You’re not fooling anyone.
2) If you say so.
3) If you say so.
4) Possible.
5) True but not the only reason. No need to rehash.
6) You must have a full service webmaster. They do everything for you including using my pictures. Nice.

It’s ok, I don’t expect anything from you. I just wanted the community to know. And again, I did not invent the clutch stop. I invented the easy to install E90 clutch stop.
JetBlackE46 is offline   United_States
0
      10-15-2012, 05:06 PM   #93
bmwkbiker
Private
 
Drives: 335i E93
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: SF Bay area

Posts: 97
iTrader: (2)

The current links do not have identical photos in them. Copying a design is common practice that benefits consumers by creating a price competitive market. Assuming BMS actually posted your pictures they could be guilty of copyright infringement and you might have a viable course of legal action.

Other than that this is just free market dynamics at work.
bmwkbiker is offline   United_States
0
      10-15-2012, 05:10 PM   #94
Laguna Seca Blue
Captain
 
Laguna Seca Blue's Avatar
 
Drives: 2009 335i Coupe
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: California

Posts: 817
iTrader: (0)

E90Company - I don't want to derail this thread, but I have never bashed Cobb. I think they're a great company with an awesome, innovative product. As of right now, ATP has certain limitations, and Cobb tuned N54's aren't able to make as much power as piggyback tuned N54's on E85. This is a fact, no bashing.

I have a problem with BMS because they have built their entire business on copying other companies products. We all know you have a JB4 and through self admission said that "you are biased towards it because you own one" but facts are facts.

Terry's response above reminds me so much of when he was trying to defend copying the Procede. He even used the word libelous. Haha.

Terry uses Mike's account to post from time to time. Even the most staunch BMS supporter will admit to this. The two of them having different writing styles.
__________________
E92 335i 6MT | Balloon White | Black Dakota Leather
PROcede Rev3 V5 | AE Quad Exhaust | BMW Performance Short Shift Kit | Gunmetal 19" M3 GTS Wheels | BF Goodrich g-Force T/A KDW 2 | AST 4100 Coilovers | Swift Springs F:280 R:560 | ER Charge Pipe | Tial Blue BOV | VRSF 3" Downpipes | VRSF 7" Intercooler

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=782212
Laguna Seca Blue is offline   United_States
0
      10-15-2012, 05:13 PM   #95
JetBlackE46
Private
 
JetBlackE46's Avatar
 
Drives: ///M
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Bay Area

Posts: 88
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwkbiker View Post
The current links do not have identical photos in them. Copying a design is common practice that benefits consumers by creating a price competitive market. Assuming BMS actually posted your pictures they could be guilty of copyright infringement and you might have a viable course of legal action.

Other than that this is just free market dynamics at work.
They took most of my pictures off finally.

I'll post the original listing when I figure out how post a web page.
JetBlackE46 is offline   United_States
0
      10-15-2012, 05:16 PM   #96
ragingpanda
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 135i
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Florida

Posts: 509
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laguna Seca Blue View Post
E90Company - I don't want to derail this thread, but I have never bashed Cobb. I think they're a great company with an awesome, innovative product. As of right now, ATP has certain limitations, and Cobb tuned N54's aren't able to make as much power as piggyback tuned N54's on E85. This is a fact, no bashing.
I have yet to see a piggyback tuned N54 on e85 run at the dragstrip....

Care to show me some results?
ragingpanda is offline  
0
      10-15-2012, 05:18 PM   #97
ttribe
First Lieutenant
 
ttribe's Avatar
 
Drives: '09 E93 335i
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Posts: 361
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JetBlackE46 View Post
They took most of my pictures off finally.

I'll post the original listing when I figure out how post a web page.
If you are using Firefox - 1) install FireShot add-on; 2) open saved html doc in Firefox; 3) use FireShot to take a screen grab of the web page and save as a .jpg file; 4) upload to an image hosting site; 5) insert image code into post; 6) click on the "Submit Reply" button.
__________________
2012+ 09 E93 335i - Space Gray, N54, Sport, Premium, Comfort, Logic7, Nav Mods - Reflectors, LUX, Pedals, M3 Spoiler, Black Grilles, Macht Schnell, Aero, ESS, RE760
2011-12 07 E60 M5 - Indy Red
ttribe is offline   United_States
0
      10-15-2012, 05:21 PM   #98
JetBlackE46
Private
 
JetBlackE46's Avatar
 
Drives: ///M
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Bay Area

Posts: 88
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ttribe View Post
There seems to be a key straw man in Terry's response (posted above) - namely, the notion that the OP claimed to "invent" the clutch stop. As a matter of fact, the OP stated otherwise in the first post of this thread. Is no one actually reading what others are posting?
Exactly. Thanks!

I never said I invented the clutch stop.

I invented the easy to install adjustable E90 clutch stop.
JetBlackE46 is offline   United_States
0
      10-15-2012, 05:33 PM   #99
GChase
Captain
 
GChase's Avatar
 
Drives: 2009 E90 328i
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Louisville, KY

Posts: 701
iTrader: (0)

After reading everything, I can make two conclusions...
1) JetBlack has a legitimate complaint about BMS using his pictures to make profit. That's illegal and shady business.
but
2) It's a good thing for all of us in the community that BMS offers a clutch stop that is cheaper. Oh economics.
GChase is online now   United_States
0
      10-15-2012, 05:38 PM   #100
divisionbell77
Lieutenant
 
divisionbell77's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 335i XDrive Coupe
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Ohio

Posts: 447
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ttribe View Post
That would fall to BMS; not someone else. Mike can't have it both ways - he can't try to claim independence, and simultaneously insert himself into this debate.
He sells the product. He can put his two cents in all he wishes.

First it was he shouldn't because of some financial backlash or whatever nonsense you were able to fish out of your rear, now it is only BMS that can respond.

Whats your third made up reasoning?
divisionbell77 is offline  
0
      10-15-2012, 05:41 PM   #101
ttribe
First Lieutenant
 
ttribe's Avatar
 
Drives: '09 E93 335i
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Posts: 361
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by divisionbell77 View Post
He sells the product. He can put his two cents in all he wishes.

First it was he shouldn't because of some financial backlash or whatever nonsense you were able to fish out of your rear, now it is only BMS that can respond.

Whats your third made up reasoning?
Oh good grief...I expressed the opinion that I thought it was a bad idea for a vendor claiming to be independent of the parties to be inserting himself into the fray. That's it. That's all. If you calmed down for half a moment, you might find I've taken a position on nothing else, including the underlying fight. The fact of the matter is this thread supports my position - rightly or wrongly (I honestly have no idea), Mike is now painted as being in bed with BMS. That's a bad thing under the circumstances.

BTW, I thought Mike said he didn't sell this particular BMS product. Did I miss something?
__________________
2012+ 09 E93 335i - Space Gray, N54, Sport, Premium, Comfort, Logic7, Nav Mods - Reflectors, LUX, Pedals, M3 Spoiler, Black Grilles, Macht Schnell, Aero, ESS, RE760
2011-12 07 E60 M5 - Indy Red

Last edited by ttribe; 10-15-2012 at 05:46 PM.
ttribe is offline   United_States
0
      10-15-2012, 05:46 PM   #102
galahad05
Colonel
 
galahad05's Avatar
 
Drives: 335i Sedan
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Long Island NY

Posts: 2,433
iTrader: (0)

I saw that OP posted his pic on his ebay posting in May of this year.
When did BMS do theirs?
__________________
Always laugh when you can. It is cheap medicine
--Lord Byron
galahad05 is offline  
0
      10-15-2012, 05:49 PM   #103
arc1880
Second Lieutenant
 
Drives: '07 335i (e92)
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Diego, CA

Posts: 252
iTrader: (1)

Comparing the pictures looks like the ones on the BMS page was just cropped, brightened, and they added darker red circles on them. Lol seems like the fuzz on the carpeting is identical oh my
arc1880 is offline   United_States
0
      10-15-2012, 05:54 PM   #104
spiike32
Major
 
spiike32's Avatar
 
Drives: Monaco Blue E92 335i
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: shy-town

Posts: 1,059
iTrader: (8)

As an MBA grad from a top tier school and entrepreneur myself, you got to protect your intellectual property. A broad based patent however probably will not pass because ford patented a clutch stop member in their 1983 patent which refers to a patent in 1977 and 1972 referenced below.

http://www.google.com/patents/US4527682

So based on these broad patents you did not invent anything. You merely created an eBay shop to sell a clutch stop which I myself did purchase for my 335. BMS can do the same as well as joe shmo next door. The only thing that made me annoyed was that BMS stole your pictures, which also are no longer technically yours after you publish them on a public domain. But BMS did acknowledge the fault and addressed it.

As entrepreneurs we live and learn.
__________________

Retired: FBO 335i and 318ti Current: C7 Stingray
spiike32 is offline  
0
      10-15-2012, 05:56 PM   #105
tmo24
Captain
 
tmo24's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 335i e90 Msport
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Las Vegas

Posts: 908
iTrader: (3)

Sorry to hear about this. I bet it truly hits hard when you have put a lot of your hard work into something and watch someone else take it and make a profit. I'm not going to beat the dead horse over the whole patent thing, but I personally have decided to NOT pursue selling certain items on eBay without having a patent. And because I thought the cost of a patent would have probably outweighed the profit I would make, I decided not to sell the products that I could have made and sold. Years later on, big companies like Apple patented what I was going to patent and sell and I probably missed out big time. Or maybe not. I will never know. Oh well. You live and you learn. And the crazy part is that there are companies that directly rip off big companies like Apple and sell them for a fraction of what Apple sells them for. For instance, you can buy a replacement iPhone 4/4S back glass panel for a few dollars shipped to you. And it has all of the Apple logos on it. Looks identical to a factory Apple back. Or buy new cables for a dollar shipped. So even of you have a patent, it may not even help you. Either way, I feel your pain and it sucks that a company stole your intellectual property for their benefit.
__________________
2010 335i AW e90 Msport
tmo24 is offline   United_States
0
      10-15-2012, 06:12 PM   #106
dr335is
Brigadier General
 
Drives: GTI
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Dallas, TX

Posts: 4,973
iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
Hey guys, I will do one last post in this thread as its not really my issue as I don't sell the metal clutch stop in question here so I have no real gain either way, but I always like to support my suppliers, BMS and anybody else. I know its a favourite thing for a certain few users to always say that I am a fake Terry, or Terry steals my account, etc. but there is nothing I can really say to change your mind so I don't even bother anymore. The reality is BMS is a significant supplier of mine, but I have many other suppliers and in reality BMS maybe makes up 25-30% of my sales volume.

Back to the Clutch stop, and before we get carried away here lets look at this clutch stop in more detail. It's basically a furniture pad and a few washers. Grant you, clutch stops have been made for decades and I used one on my very first car (1989 Jetta). It's not like we're talking about the worlds first adjustable clutch stop here. We're talking about a "product" that anyone can go in to Home Depot and make for around $1. This photo shows the parts used to make them. It's easy to see why this has not been patented.

A year or two ago BMS refined the clutch stop with hard rubber washers that reduce the potential for rattling and offer a bit of rebound. But those washers cost $.75 instead of $.04. So they marketed theirs for $10 and I think its a great product that I use on my own car. Still less than OP was charging. Now due to some claims spread by OP they were forced to offer a part using metal washers. That's life. And the good news for customers is the metal washers are a lot cheaper so they can sell their lower end clutch stop for less now. $6 shipped is almost half of what the OP charges I believe.

There may be more to this then I know but I will leave it at this and hopefully the two parties can get together and resolve this dispute.

Mike
Who are you and do you even understand the point of this thread???
We all know that the OP is making profit. That is the whole point of him selling it.
On the other hand, seems like BMS has done a completely dishonest thing. And what you are doing is not a science, however, there is no need for it here!

To the OP, I have used some General pictures on EBay to sell some of my tennis stuff before. Turned out those pictures came from one of the reputable on-line sellers (no watermark) and eBay removed my listing after the complaint was filed. I was not trying to take away from their business as they sell thousands of items, I just mistakenly posted their image.
On the other hand, I highly doubt that BMS did the same thing as the history you pointed out shows otherwise.

Good luck!
dr335is is offline  
0
      10-15-2012, 06:24 PM   #107
statelax3
Private First Class
 
Drives: 335i
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: charlotte nc

Posts: 160
iTrader: (0)

My experience with BMS was terrible at best. I would suggest anyone but them for anything possible. Terry runs his business like a 15yr old in their mom's basement. Terry would not honor the deal his employee made with me. Chicken shit vendor IMO.
statelax3 is offline  
0
      10-15-2012, 06:25 PM   #108
TheTal0n
Lieutenant
 
TheTal0n's Avatar
 
Drives: 2006 330i
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Utah

Posts: 522
iTrader: (0)

You did provide it first. So maybe you could get free mods from them. or a slice of the cake.
TheTal0n is offline  
0
      10-15-2012, 07:03 PM   #109
MattMD
E9X > F3X
 
MattMD's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 328i
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Maryland

Posts: 718
iTrader: (0)

Too bad only BMS makes the BMS PB. I feel for you, but I'm not joining the whole BMS boycott like most people in this thread. I won't not buy from them because of some pictures. It's just failed communication.
__________________
2009 E90 328i - Space Grey Metallic on Black // iDrive // Premium Package // Xenons

Mods - Stock for now

Dream Car - Mineral White E92 M3 DCT, Ferrari 458 (someday )

Last edited by MattMD; 10-15-2012 at 07:42 PM.
MattMD is offline   United_States
0
      10-15-2012, 07:37 PM   #110
E90Company
Major General
 
E90Company's Avatar
 
Drives: Car
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: FL

Posts: 6,142
iTrader: (2)

I feel like this was blown way out of proportion. I am still going to be buying BMS products
E90Company is offline   No_Country
0
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:34 AM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST