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      10-15-2012, 07:52 AM   #1
omaragha
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Need Audio Help, MS8 + Alpine PDX 4.100

Dear Friends,

Have already posted in Audio thread but in case some of you clever people from the UK dont go to that thread - need some advice,

My current Audio setup includes,

Front Stage = Logic 7 Mids and Tweets
Centre = Logic 7 mid and tweet
Rear Stage = Logic 7 mids
Subs= Earthquake SWS8's
Processor= JBL MS8
Amp = Alpine PDX4.100

So I fitted the Amp and the subs at the weekend with a view on the amp running the front stage and the subs.

My primary question is that the amp has its own crossovers and filters. I have set the filters on the channels to 'off' and the crossover on the sub channels to 40Hz and the front stage to 150hz.

Am I doing this right ? What should I set the crossovers to ? Should I turn the filters off, asumption that the MS8 shoudl do this work ?

On the MS 8 I have set the crossover point at 40HZ for low pass and the high pass at 200HZ. I have arranged the speaker set up as:

FL + FR as 1 way 200HZ 24DB
Centre as 1 way 200HZ 24DB
Rears as 1 way 200HZ 24 DB
Subs x 2 30HZ 12DB

Any pointers warmly welcomed - especially with respect at what I should set the amp crossovers at and whether I should be using the filters on the amp ?

Thanks for reading !!
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      10-15-2012, 02:59 PM   #2
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Ok, update.

Ive set the MS8 up with teh following:

FL+FR 1 way 150HZ 24db
Center 1 way 150Hz 24db
SL+SR 1 way 150Hz 24DB
Sub1&2 30hz 12 db

I have some great staging across the front now but find the subs very 'boomy' and the fronts mids are struggling as they pop. Not sure what is the RMS for a Logic 7 mid ? I have 100 RMS going to fronts with the AMP gain turned down to a third but they still pop.

Set the MS8 up at -30 and now have it at -6. Head Unit was set to about 42 clicks at calibaration.

Any ideas or is it a case of the Logic 7 mids now not keeping up ?
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      10-15-2012, 03:57 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omaragha View Post

Should I turn the filters off, asumption that the MS8 shoudl do this work ?

You answered your question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by omaragha View Post
Ok, update.

Ive set the MS8 up with teh following:

FL+FR 1 way 150HZ 24db
Center 1 way 150Hz 24db
SL+SR 1 way 150Hz 24DB
Sub1&2 30hz 12 db

I have some great staging across the front now but find the subs very 'boomy' and the fronts mids are struggling as they pop. Not sure what is the RMS for a Logic 7 mid ? I have 100 RMS going to fronts with the AMP gain turned down to a third but they still pop.

Set the MS8 up at -30 and now have it at -6. Head Unit was set to about 42 clicks at calibaration.

Any ideas or is it a case of the Logic 7 mids now not keeping up ?
L7 mids are 75W RMS. So don't push them more than that.

I guess you are referring 30Hz as subsonic filter. (correct me if I am wrong).

You will get better sound if you setup front / subs at 120hz 24db, BUT be careful when you set your gains on your speakers.

I would set the gains of amp to 20% and let MS-8 do its job.

HTHs.
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      10-15-2012, 06:04 PM   #4
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Hi Mate,

Thanks for the response,

Some questions if I may:

Fronts and subs are setup differently. ie my fronts are 1 way NOT 2 way. So I setup subs as 30hz subsonic filter 12db slope.

How do you set gains on speakers ? I thought you set gains on amps ?
Why set the sub channel to 20% of the 100w RMS ? The Eartquakes are rated at 300w max so surely they can take 100w RMS ?
If the L7's are rated at 75w RMS why set the amp at 20% for that channel ?

I am confused by your kind response mate. I think you are reffering to setting up the front channel as 2 way ? I could be (and probably am) wrong.
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Last edited by omaragha; 10-15-2012 at 06:10 PM.
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      10-16-2012, 06:27 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omaragha View Post
Fronts and subs are setup differently. ie my fronts are 1 way NOT 2 way. So I setup subs as 30hz subsonic filter 12db slope.
Ok, that explains it. But what is the frequency for subs then?
You mentioned sub sonic filter (30Hz) but what sort of frequency are you using for subs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by omaragha View Post

How do you set gains on speakers ? I thought you set gains on amps ?
Correct, gains on amp to drive your drivers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by omaragha View Post
Why set the sub channel to 20% of the 100w RMS ?
On lower gains, less chances of static / hiss, unless your amp if of very high quality.

Also don't forget that gain is the way to control how much 'input' are you using to reach max power of amp.


Quote:
Originally Posted by omaragha View Post

The Eartquakes are rated at 300w max so surely they can take 100w RMS ?
If the L7's are rated at 75w RMS why set the amp at 20% for that channel ?

MS-8 will do most of the job for you. If you are not sure, get it installed professionally, or use voltmeter to check if your gains are adjusted as per your driver's abilities.


Quote:
Originally Posted by omaragha View Post

I am confused by your kind response mate. I think you are reffering to setting up the front channel as 2 way ? I could be (and probably am) wrong.
There is no harm in trying that.
Personally I get better results with SWS-8s when setup as subs on MS-8s.
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      10-16-2012, 09:52 AM   #6
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Thanks again mate,

I prefer the SWS8'sm setup as subs and not part of fronts on 2 way. I will have a go at turning down the gains and see how I get on.

Not sure what frequency for subs - I will check tonight.

Its seems that you have a very similar setup to mine, I also notice your amp is similalry powered,

It seems you are happy with your setup - can you share with me what you setup looks like in MS8 ?

I am keen to understand if you have changed tone / graphic / input control for sub / cntr etc obviously need to know what crossover / slopes etc you are using.

If you can share that data it woudl be appriacted fella.

In terms of professional install - I have eveyrthing installed its just a matter of playing with teh settings now - if you know of anyone in teh London / Berks / Bucks area I woudl be interested to know,.

Thanks buddy.
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      10-16-2012, 12:38 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omaragha View Post
I prefer the SWS8'sm setup as subs and not part of fronts on 2 way. I will have a go at turning down the gains and see how I get on.

Not sure what frequency for subs - I will check tonight.
Sub Frequency is the key to your sound. SWS-8s don't do much above 100Hz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by omaragha View Post
Its seems that you have a very similar setup to mine, I also notice your amp is similalry powered,
If I can code my HU to hi-fi, I don't really need MS-8.
I am happy with HU---> Amp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by omaragha View Post
It seems you are happy with your setup - can you share with me what you setup looks like in MS8 ?

I am keen to understand if you have changed tone / graphic / input control for sub / cntr etc obviously need to know what crossover / slopes etc you are using.

If you can share that data it woudl be appriacted fella.
I have installed it for few members on this forum. If you follow what I recommended earlier in my post, you will not regret. Albeit you have to be very carefully with gains to speakers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by omaragha View Post
In terms of professional install - I have eveyrthing installed its just a matter of playing with teh settings now - if you know of anyone in teh London / Berks / Bucks area I woudl be interested to know,.

Thanks buddy.
Great to see that you installed it. Have a play with settings and you will be good to go.
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      10-16-2012, 12:48 PM   #8
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Sorry mate im lost - a simple list of your settings would be of great help ?

i.e. do you have the subs set as part of the fronts or on their own ?

Your comment 'have a play with settings and you are good to go' doesnt really help mate as that is what I am doing and getting effing frustrated - its almost too many options lol.
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      10-16-2012, 01:21 PM   #9
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Ok,

Just tried,

Subsonic filter 30HZ
Sub / Front Crossover 120hz
FL+FR 120HZ 24db
Centre 120hz 24db
Sides 120hz 24db
Sub1+2 24db

AMP gains at min,

........................and its sounds SHITE !

The front mids (when turned up just seem to pop) and distort.

Ready to sack all this kit tbh - next time factory fit for me only !!

I had a full Logic 7 system in my previous 35d and it was spot on !
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      10-16-2012, 02:03 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omaragha View Post
Ok,

Just tried,

Subsonic filter 30HZ
Sub / Front Crossover 120hz
FL+FR 120HZ 24db
Centre 120hz 24db
Sides 120hz 24db
Sub1+2 24db

AMP gains at min,

........................and its sounds SHITE !

The front mids (when turned up just seem to pop) and distort.

Ready to sack all this kit tbh - next time factory fit for me only !!

I had a full Logic 7 system in my previous 35d and it was spot on !

Few Questions.
1- Are you skipping the calibration process or are you using sound CD to setup the calibration?

2- What volume level of MS-8 are you using for calibration level?

3- If I am not wrong, only your front mids and SWS-8s are connected to alpine PDX 4.100, and rest to MS-8.

IF yes, try these.

Try these settings:
Subsonic filter 40HZ
Sub / Front Crossover 120hz
FL+FR 120HZ 24db
Centre 150hz 24db
Sides 150hz 24db
Sub1+2 24db


You can also try these settings with MS-8 volume on 21 while calibration and then 30-35 db to see which one works out better.

MS-8 is right bitch to setup properly and TBH, hence I never liked / bought one.
But if somebody wants one, I'd recommend it as it can be setup by anybody if done properly.
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      10-16-2012, 02:38 PM   #11
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Bitch aint the word fella !!

So in answer to your Q's

1) I am doing factory reset and complete install each time with CD etc etc
2) I am calibarating at -30 and then truning up to -6 after in normal listening mode.
3) My fronts are L7 mids & tweets !! The PDX (amp) is running FL+FR & Sub 1 + Sub 2

Doing my swede in this is !!! Thanks for help tho mate !!
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      10-16-2012, 02:55 PM   #12
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I really need to spend few days and play with certain settings.

Is your complaint popping mids?
or distorted subs?

See my response in bold.


Quote:
Originally Posted by omaragha View Post
Bitch aint the word fella !!

So in answer to your Q's

1) I am doing factory reset and complete install each time with CD etc etc

Correct way
2) I am calibarating at -30 and then truning up to -6 after in normal listening mode.
Try
a) calibration at -21db and later run on -10 or around that.
b) calibration at 30-35 and later run on -6 - 0 depending on distortion level.
Keep amp gains at minimum.

And if none of these help, then worth of experimenting this;
Set the amp gains to 75% and recalibrate whole system on the settings given above.

One way or the other, it should work.


3) My fronts are L7 mids & tweets !! The PDX (amp) is running FL+FR & Sub 1 + Sub 2

If none works, ditch MS-8 and run your subs and front mids on amp.

Doing my swede in this is !!! Thanks for help tho mate !!
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      10-16-2012, 03:01 PM   #13
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Ill give it a go mate and try different volumes and gains as you kindly provided- had enough tonight tbh !! So will revert back tomorrow.

Do you still think the below is the right setup for crossovers and slopes ?:

Subsonic filter 40HZ
Sub / Front Crossover 120hz
FL+FR 120HZ 24db
Centre 150hz 24db
Sides 150hz 24db
Sub1+2 24db

OR

......I currently have all speakers @ 24db slopes and crossovers at 120hz, with 30Hz subsonic.

So which should it be buddy ?

Thanks for all your help !!
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      10-16-2012, 03:07 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omaragha View Post
Ill give it a go mate and try different volumes and gains as you kindly provided- had enough tonight tbh !! So will revert back tomorrow.

Do you still think the below is the right setup for crossovers and slopes ?:

Subsonic filter 40HZ
Sub / Front Crossover 120hz
FL+FR 120HZ 24db
Centre 150hz 24db
Sides 150hz 24db
Sub1+2 24db

OR

......I currently have all speakers @ 24db slopes and crossovers at 120hz, with 30Hz subsonic.

So which should it be buddy ?

Thanks for all your help !!
40Hz subsonic is safer approach compared to 30Hz.
About slopes, I cannot comment as I always used 24db.
Cross over is 120Hz b/w fronts and sub.
For rears and central 150Hz is safer and less distorted approach.

Share your results with us.

Also don't forget to experiment amp gains as mentioned above.
Thanks.
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      10-16-2012, 03:09 PM   #15
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Try this.

1) go into the test menu of the ms-8 (hold left right left right each for about a second, or until you see the screen flicker)
2) go to Output Identification
3) Set ms-8 volume to less than -25, say -30
4) you will see a list of all your channels. Click on the centre channel and it will play pink noise through that channel only. Note SPL at driver head position in db. You can use an iphone app for this, i use an app called dB Volume as it has a slow response so its easy to measure. Make sure you set it to C weighting.
5) click on your driver side mid/tweet channel. Adjust amp gains so it matches centre. However as this is amped even on the min gains it may be a lot higher. Note this db level.
6) repeat for driver side underseats, adjust gain and note db.
7) repeat for driver side rear mid and note db
8) hopefully at this stage most of your drivers are within 3-4 db
9) now increase the [b]ms-8 volume[b] until the SPL of your drivers is roughly 55db. To measure this just go into 2-3 of your channels like earlier
10) now try recalibrating at that volume.

If you're still getting bad results try up to +3db or -3db from that calibration volume. If its still bad then bridge the amp to the woofers so the rest of your speakers level match. In my opinion this would work well.

I wouldn't really advise ditching the ms-8 and amping, assuming you started off with the base spec. You can make this work, its like a marriage. Just needs a bit of effort.
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      10-16-2012, 05:01 PM   #16
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Thanks for replies chaps,

What's your view on crossovers and slopes for each channel Mob17 ?
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      10-16-2012, 05:12 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omaragha View Post
Thanks for replies chaps,

What's your view on crossovers and slopes for each channel Mob17 ?
Normally i'd say 200hz@24db for all mids, but in this case it might be better to go as advised by makkan, due to the Earthquakes not really doing much for mid bass.
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