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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Can LSD hold the power of my VFF600?



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      10-30-2012, 01:45 PM   #1
cocoturkey
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Can LSD hold the power of my VFF600?

I have a FBO e92 6AT 335i. I was really into 100-200km/h race. It's quite popular here in taiwan. My record was 6.1s with Shiv's VFF600 single turbo kit. I'm still the record holder for now.

A few months ago.... I started to fall in love with track racing. I even purchase a $2k carbon ceramics brake kit, M3 chassis mods, Recaro seats, lumma body kits, cf hood and trunk lid, kw v3... ect. My track time is always 2 seconds slower than M3 even though my car is much more powerful than e92 M3. I think it's time for me to put an LSD on my car.

The most popular brands for LSD on this forum are WAVETRAC and Quaife.... I did some research and it seems like OS Giken makes the best LSD on the market so i wrote an e-mail to OS Giken, and this is what they wrote back to me:

Quote:
Also, if your E92 335i 6AT is modified or will be modified for increased engine power, then our LSD might not be suitable for use.
Unlike M3, 335i 6AT uses smaller OE differential that we cannot fit a larger LSD to handle the added engine power.
Cases of broken LSD are rare, however just wanted to inform you that there is a chance.
I was just wondering if someone on the forums who has already have OS Giken LSD installed on their car and did have problems with it on tracks.... I was also wondering if OS Giken is really the best LSD on the market regardless its price?
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      10-30-2012, 02:10 PM   #2
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Good lord you have an open diff and a single turbo?? I can't even imagine running an open diff on a single turbo kit. I'd be worried about spinning in the triple digits and killing myself.

Don't know about the OS, but I would think a wavetrack should be fine for your set up. I would upgrade from the wavetrack ONLY if your primary use for the car was drag racing.

Is your diff welded or bolted? With a bolted diff you can purchase a Wavetrack installed for less than USD $2K.
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      10-30-2012, 02:13 PM   #3
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My Quaife is holding up just fine to the VFF600, and Shiv tested the hell out of it.

For the record, 6AT are all bolted.
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      10-30-2012, 02:25 PM   #4
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Always going to be a chance of something breaking. They're just covering their asses in case anything does break, no matter how small the chances.
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      10-30-2012, 02:42 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skinrock View Post
My Quaife is holding up just fine to the VFF600, and Shiv tested the hell out of it.

For the record, 6AT are all bolted.
nope not all are bolted. they just started later than MT with the non bolted .
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      10-30-2012, 02:50 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cocoturkey View Post
I have a FBO e92 6AT 335i. I was really into 100-200km/h race. It's quite popular here in taiwan. My record was 6.1s with Shiv's VFF600 single turbo kit. I'm still the record holder for now.

A few months ago.... I started to fall in love with track racing. I even purchase a $2k carbon ceramics brake kit, M3 chassis mods, Recaro seats, lumma body kits, cf hood and trunk lid, kw v3... ect. My track time is always 2 seconds slower than M3 even though my car is much more powerful than e92 M3. I think it's time for me to put an LSD on my car.

The most popular brands for LSD on this forum are WAVETRAC and Quaife.... I did some research and it seems like OS Giken makes the best LSD on the market so i wrote an e-mail to OS Giken, and this is what they wrote back to me:


I was just wondering if someone on the forums who has already have OS Giken LSD installed on their car and did have problems with it on tracks.... I was also wondering if OS Giken is really the best LSD on the market regardless its price?
Don't take this the wrong way, but here's what I'd do to ensure that you run lap times which reflect the power your car makes (vs. embarassment from a stock M3), and I would do them in this order: 1. Racing School (not sure if one can find a proper racing school in Taiwan, you may have to look elsewhere. There are plenty of great schools in the US, UK and continental EU). 2. Tires/wheels. I noticed that in your list of things you did that a proper set of track rubber/light wheels were not listed. All your power, braking and handling mods are useless if you're using crappy tires. IMO, if you're tracking a car, using street tires is a waste of $. Get something like Toyo r888s and do a square set if you can (same size front and rear, gives the front end more bite, and you can make your tires last a much longer; one can definitely stuff 255s under the front fenders of an e92 with the right offset, especially if you're running a proper track alignment). 3. LSD. Once the driver behind the wheel is well trained to push the car closer to its limits, and the car has as much grip at all 4 corners as is reasonably possible, then focus on getting it to maximize power application out of corners. Get a Wavetrac and a VAC finned diff cover if you're tracking to prevent cooking the diff fluid on the track. It will be plenty for your needs. I should also mention that the Wavetrac has a lifetime warranty on the unit, if that's a vote of confidence for you.

Best part of this is that the cost difference between the OS Giken and the Wavetrac will get you very far along towards accomplishing the #1 and #2 priorities. #1 and #2 together will accomplish your goal of being faster around a cirucit than a stock M3 by quite a bit. Adding #3 will certainly help increase your speed vs. the M3, but only if #1 and #2 are adressed first. Otherwise, if you only do the LSD without the others, you will be just as slow as you are now.
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      10-30-2012, 02:52 PM   #7
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Any LSD is upgrade over OE open diff and weak points are not the diff itself but the drive shaft and axels that should also be upgraded so look into DSS..
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      10-30-2012, 02:54 PM   #8
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Is this Single Turbo 6.1 60-130 in an AT documented anywhere?
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      10-30-2012, 02:55 PM   #9
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I've heard nothing can hold the power of the single turbo... BUT, this is your best shot.
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      10-30-2012, 03:06 PM   #10
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I'm not 100% sure but I believe prior to 08 they were bolted, 08 and later 335i are welded. I would go with a Quaife.
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      10-30-2012, 03:13 PM   #11
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I think OS Giken TCD is the only 1.5 way clutch-type LSD in the market... i don't know if I should spend the extra few hundred dollars on TCD or I should just go with Super Lock version~ don't really know if the oil channels and oil holes on the plates do make differences or not.
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      10-30-2012, 03:30 PM   #12
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Kw v3 is not among the best suspensions. Proper track tires would make a huge difference. Open diff is useless in getting the power to the ground. Driving skill is a big factor having this much power.
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      10-30-2012, 03:32 PM   #13
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nope not all are bolted. they just started later than MT with the non bolted .
Later than what? Harold@HPA has said many times that no autos are welded. In fact, mine was "supposed" to be welded according to Wavetrac and it wasn't.
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      10-30-2012, 03:32 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by DefactoM6 View Post
Don't take this the wrong way, but here's what I'd do to ensure that you run lap times which reflect the power your car makes (vs. embarassment from a stock M3), and I would do them in this order: 1. Racing School (not sure if one can find a proper racing school in Taiwan, you may have to look elsewhere. There are plenty of great schools in the US, UK and continental EU). 2. Tires/wheels. I noticed that in your list of things you did that a proper set of track rubber/light wheels were not listed. All your power, braking and handling mods are useless if you're using crappy tires. IMO, if you're tracking a car, using street tires is a waste of $. Get something like Toyo r888s and do a square set if you can (same size front and rear, gives the front end more bite, and you can make your tires last a much longer; one can definitely stuff 255s under the front fenders of an e92 with the right offset, especially if you're running a proper track alignment). 3. LSD. Once the driver behind the wheel is well trained to push the car closer to its limits, and the car has as much grip at all 4 corners as is reasonably possible, then focus on getting it to maximize power application out of corners. Get a Wavetrac and a VAC finned diff cover if you're tracking to prevent cooking the diff fluid on the track. It will be plenty for your needs. I should also mention that the Wavetrac has a lifetime warranty on the unit, if that's a vote of confidence for you.

Best part of this is that the cost difference between the OS Giken and the Wavetrac will get you very far along towards accomplishing the #1 and #2 priorities. #1 and #2 together will accomplish your goal of being faster around a cirucit than a stock M3 by quite a bit. Adding #3 will certainly help increase your speed vs. the M3, but only if #1 and #2 are adressed first. Otherwise, if you only do the LSD without the others, you will be just as slow as you are now.

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply to my OP.

I did let a friend of mine who was the champion of last GT Cup in Taiwan to drive my car once, and he can only drive 0.2s faster than me (it's a 2-min track) on the same tracking day... so I think my knowledge and driving skill is ok. (My friends owns a e92 M3 before he got his 997 GT3 CUP. His best lap time on his e92 M3 with TE37 and hoosier tires is about 10.2 seconds fasters than my lap time, and 3.8 seconds faster than me with ADAVAN AD08 street tires.)

I have HRE P40 with ADAVAN AD08 tires. I know I can't have the best lap time out of it, but I am only comparing the lap time of my 335 with other M3 using the same street tires. however, I did order a set of TE37 SL with hoosier R6. I will do widebody to my car for a square setup (10.5J for both front and rear).

I don't think (1) and (2) are an issue since I was only comparing my lap time with m3 using the same street tires. I think the problem is at LSD... I can't push the car in corners.

Now I need to choose the right LSD... it's really a hard choice to make.
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      10-30-2012, 03:34 PM   #15
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I've heard nothing can hold the power of the single turbo... BUT, this is your best shot.
haha... very funny.
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      10-30-2012, 03:43 PM   #16
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I would go with the Quaife LSD. I think it has a lifetime warranty so if anything breaks, they will replace it.
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      10-30-2012, 04:35 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cocoturkey View Post
Thank you very much for taking the time to reply to my OP.

I did let a friend of mine who was the champion of last GT Cup in Taiwan to drive my car once, and he can only drive 0.2s faster than me (it's a 2-min track) on the same tracking day... so I think my knowledge and driving skill is ok. (My friends owns a e92 M3 before he got his 997 GT3 CUP. His best lap time on his e92 M3 with TE37 and hoosier tires is about 10.2 seconds fasters than my lap time, and 3.8 seconds faster than me with ADAVAN AD08 street tires.)

I have HRE P40 with ADAVAN AD08 tires. I know I can't have the best lap time out of it, but I am only comparing the lap time of my 335 with other M3 using the same street tires. however, I did order a set of TE37 SL with hoosier R6. I will do widebody to my car for a square setup (10.5J for both front and rear).

I don't think (1) and (2) are an issue since I was only comparing my lap time with m3 using the same street tires. I think the problem is at LSD... I can't push the car in corners.

Now I need to choose the right LSD... it's really a hard choice to make.
Hmm...well I guess you took out a fair amount of the things I would've adressed on the table. That being the case, yes obviously you need an LSD, that said, IMHO, the advantage an OS Giken would provide over a Wavetrac or a Quaife is probably questionable, given the number of successful race teams who have used Quaife ATB units just like the ones available for your car(can't speak about Wavetrac, but it's essentially the same thing). If you really wanted a clutch-type LSD, you could also have Diffsonline build you one to your exact specifications. FWIW, Diffsonline builds the diffs for BMW Motorsport's M3 GT2s in ALMS, as well as Turner Motorsports' Grand Am M3s. Personally, that's the route I'd go. You can deal with Diffsonline directly, or get them through Turner; I'd do the former.

That said, I'd look to other variables causing you to be 3.8 seconds off the pace of a stock power M3 on identical tires and te37s. IDK, something just sounds off. I could believe an LSD shaving 1-1.5 seconds a lap on a 2 minute lap time, maybe closer to the 1.5 because of the power you have, but being 4 seconds/lap slower than a stock power M3 with a similar if not inferior suspension, equal tires, same weight (if not heavier)...with the same, competent driver behind the wheel...it's just not making sense.
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      10-30-2012, 05:12 PM   #18
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ADVAN AD08 are not R-Tyres. They grip well but you cannot compare them to Pilot Cup for example.
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      10-30-2012, 07:16 PM   #19
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Is this Single Turbo 6.1 60-130 in an AT documented anywhere?
6.1 for 100-200km. The 60-130 would be slower.
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      10-30-2012, 07:17 PM   #20
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No way a 600hp with the same amount of torque is loosing to a stock M3 when suspension / tire mods are equal.

I agree, this doesn't make sense. If you were to tell me the M3 is charged and makes similar power than I'd say sure.

Maybe the M3 lied to you about mods lol...or the driving is an issue.
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      10-30-2012, 11:09 PM   #21
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Hmm...well I guess you took out a fair amount of the things I would've adressed on the table. That being the case, yes obviously you need an LSD, that said, IMHO, the advantage an OS Giken would provide over a Wavetrac or a Quaife is probably questionable, given the number of successful race teams who have used Quaife ATB units just like the ones available for your car(can't speak about Wavetrac, but it's essentially the same thing). If you really wanted a clutch-type LSD, you could also have Diffsonline build you one to your exact specifications. FWIW, Diffsonline builds the diffs for BMW Motorsport's M3 GT2s in ALMS, as well as Turner Motorsports' Grand Am M3s. Personally, that's the route I'd go. You can deal with Diffsonline directly, or get them through Turner; I'd do the former.

That said, I'd look to other variables causing you to be 3.8 seconds off the pace of a stock power M3 on identical tires and te37s. IDK, something just sounds off. I could believe an LSD shaving 1-1.5 seconds a lap on a 2 minute lap time, maybe closer to the 1.5 because of the power you have, but being 4 seconds/lap slower than a stock power M3 with a similar if not inferior suspension, equal tires, same weight (if not heavier)...with the same, competent driver behind the wheel...it's just not making sense.

Once again, thank you for taking the time to reply to my post.

I know something must be wrong. I think my alignment isn't an issue cuz' I did measure the temp of my inner, center and outer tires right after I get back to pit. Alignments seem okay.

I will contact Diffsonline and see what is the best choice for me. It's really hard to make the right choice out of these 3 brands. I really hope someone who has try both OS Giken LSD & Quaife or OS Giken & Wavetrac can speak from their experience. Thank you very much for your help. I really appreciate it.
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      10-31-2012, 09:20 AM   #22
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Once again, thank you for taking the time to reply to my post.

I know something must be wrong. I think my alignment isn't an issue cuz' I did measure the temp of my inner, center and outer tires right after I get back to pit. Alignments seem okay.

I will contact Diffsonline and see what is the best choice for me. It's really hard to make the right choice out of these 3 brands. I really hope someone who has try both OS Giken LSD & Quaife or OS Giken & Wavetrac can speak from their experience. Thank you very much for your help. I really appreciate it.
What are your specs? You're welcome to PM them if you don't wish to add confusion to the thread, because I'd definitely be interested in seeing what they are. I agree, the choice is difficult. If it's any vote (though it might add to the confusion), I have 2x Diffsonline diffs for my M6 (Primary: 4.10 motorsport gears, 4 clutch, 30/90 variable ramp, REM polished (same or better than an OS Giken) and a 3.64, 2 clutch, 40% lock for long distances), and a Wavetrac in my e92. I'm happy with all of them. That said, there are definitely fewer compromises with the Wavetrac, IMO. For example, I never notice it in a parking lot. Ironically, I'm more likely to end up on the track with my e92, and I still went Wavetrac. Again, this is all for what it's worth. Everyone's going to have a different opinion on the matter.
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