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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > Wheels and Tires Forum Sponsored by The Tire Rack > Winter driving with RWD - snow tires / wheels discussion



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      11-10-2012, 12:25 AM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolyan2k View Post
^ we are in US here. People are so uneducated, they simply don't even know what winter tires or summer tires are (except for enthusiasts)

People here buy SUVs and think its a solution for winter, and moreover some people don't even know that some SUVs are FWD, they are in strong believe that all SUV are AWD.

I told 2 different people that were buying FWD SUVs for their young daughters that they will be much safer with winter tires in winter.....they both didn't believe me and assured me SUV is much safer in snow. And those were adults in their 40s or 50s.......yes the ones that drove 20-30 years of their lives on All Season tires

You would be surprised how many SUVs are on the road here in Boston.....they are everywhere, and probably not ONE uses proper tires. And yes, I have seen many SUVs crashed during winter storms because of false confidence that people get.
We have the same phenomenon up here too (Ottawa, Canada). Zeroes driving their giant suvs with all season tires thinking they're unstoppable (which they often are, when they NEED to actually stop!). Guess what vehicles I most often see upside down in the ditch when there's a bad storm? Yep, said suvs (and LOADS of minivans, too!).

Until a few years ago, I was firmly in the "all seasons are fine. Who needs winter tires?" camp. I never got into wrecks, and was always able to drive out of sketchy situations, etc... I did have a few close calls over the years, but was always confident in the A/S tires (oh, and I used the cheapest no-namers I could find, hehe...). I am very confident in my driving abilities, and have an excellent sense of awareness and anticipation (this comes from riding my Harley. Gotta be hyper aware and ride like you're invisible), which I am now convinced are what kept me out of the ditches and backs of other cars! Unfortunately, most people around here are terrible drivers... yacking on their cell phones, or worse - texting, drinking coffee, reading newspapers on their steering wheels (yes, I've seen this more than a few times at highway speeds!), and just plain not paying attention to what's going on around them... and we have a HUGE problem with what I call Triple-Ls (Left Lane Losers). Anyway, 3 winters ago, I decided to pop for a set of winter tires for my 02 Cavalier. WOW! What a difference!! Since then, I'm converted. All it took was to actually DRIVE with them in some really bad weather to have the point driven home. I'm pretty sure that most people who run all seasons in the winter have never driven with proper winter tires. Otherwise, they would likely have the same revelation I did.

Now, for the Cav, I just bought a used set of BF Goodrich Winter Slaloms, and they did the job very well for that car. For my current ride - 2008 328i with sport suspension, I decided to go with a high quality set. I found a set of 1 winter old Hakkapeliitta 7s on rims (wrong rims for me, so sold them), on Kijiji, for $600.00. (which is well under 1/2 the cost for a new set of tires alone). Had them mounted on my stock rims, and sold the rims they came with for $100.00. So the cost of the tires was only $500.00 (plus a few hours to pop the studs out, as they're illegal in Ontario) for nearly new tires. I haven't had to drive in any snow yet, but we've had a few near and below freezing days lately, complete with black ice, and they're awesome. They're a lot quieter than the performance summer runflats I had on before, too! I've heard, and read, nothing but great reviews of these tires, and have no doubt they will perform great when the bad weather hits.

There is NO doubt in my mind that winter tires make a tremendous difference in safety for the driver and others around in the type of climate I live in, which often has a brutal winter that can last up to 6 months. I will never run all seasons in the winter again.

Woof, that became a novel... sorry bout that!

Cheers!
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      11-10-2012, 03:52 AM   #134
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Looking at Clammys post it seems that the winter tyres are expensive in north America and it could be due to its low volume and stocking problem for tyre grossists (old winter tyres are not that good but better than all seasons!) With wide spread use, the prices are going to come down. It is a question of change of mind set regarding better grip and safety in winter and what price you are prepared to pay for it. Nice to see one convert, welome to the group Mr. Clammy from Canada.

By the way I paid total of 500 US dollars equivalent (about three years ago) for a set of new Nokian witer tyres with new aluminium rim (not BMW original rim) and they are still very good since they are used for such short period of time every year. Nokian Hakapelitta are just superb, they give you lot of grip and a lot of confidence on the winter road.

Last edited by raj55; 11-10-2012 at 03:58 AM.
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      11-10-2012, 05:21 AM   #135
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Cars sold with AS tires in USA because dumb people would drive on summer tires 365 days a year and kill themselves. Winter tires are compromise in dry when its warm outside, when its cold AS and summer tires are compromise.

I certainly see some use to AS tires by the way, just not in BMW community where people buy a car for performance. You would be surprised how shitty AS tires are on track or even during spirited driving.

My wife drives her Civic on performance AS tires and switches to winter tires when we get snow or cold temps. I bought her AS because i cant immediately switch her tires when its 30-40s outside, and I definitely don't want her driving on summer tires at those temps. Another reason is money and tread life.

PS. If I said anywhere that AS tires are junk and useless, that was towards BMW drivers. You obviously don't need to put summer tires on trucks etc. And I suppose if you do have BMW and your weather never really falls below 30 and you never really see snow and don't care much about performance, then AS is for you

Last edited by Kolyan2k; 11-10-2012 at 05:41 AM.
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      11-10-2012, 07:35 AM   #136
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Being that some people, such as myself, drive BMWs and motorcycles, and care very much about performance, recognize that a good set of All-Season tires are very close in traction, grip, turn in, and stopping distance to summer tires. These types of people also realize that All-Seasons are way above adequate for performance driving on the street, where the levels performance that are achieved with All-Season tires is way past any socially-acceptable and reasonable driving behavior. These people sometimes live in areas of the country where there are fantastic backroads on their daily commute and use their BMW to its full potential risking jail time if caught at the extra-legal speeds they sometimes drive on their ultra-high performance All-Season tires. In fact one of the backroads that these people drive on almost everyday was used as test route by a Detroit-based car magazine a few years back for a car comparison test.

They also realize that if one were to use their BMW as a track car and were inclined to buy a second set of tires for a specific purpose, they would invest in a good set of dedicated track tires if they were interested in maximum driving performance and safety on the track, and would not expect that All-Season nor Summer tires to provide said level of performance as track tires. In fact some of these people if interested in tracking their car to gain maximum driving for performance and fun, would by a dedicated track car say such as a Lotus Elise, realizing that any stock BMW chasis is designed for street use and is not that good as a track car.

Last edited by Efthreeoh; 11-11-2012 at 07:10 AM.
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      11-10-2012, 08:09 AM   #137
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So just for shits and grins I looked at the test results for the Yokohama AVID Envigor All-Season as compared to the Bridgestone Potenza RE050A RFT1 (the OEM tires that came on my sport package 325i in 2006). Here are the test numbers:

-------------Yoko-------Bridge
Slalom------5.33--------4.99
Dry Lap----31.75------30.22
Wet Lap----33.76------33.29
Stop Dry---93.70------86.30
Stop Wet--110.50-----115.40
Corner Dry---.84--------.89
Corner Wet---.72--------.74

There's not much difference in performance between these tires where it would make any difference on the street.

Last edited by Efthreeoh; 11-11-2012 at 06:52 AM.
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      11-10-2012, 08:19 AM   #138
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Its all good .....

People get flamed at S2k forum for using Ultra High Performance Summers and not Max Performance tires if I put AS on my car, mods will probably ban me

I also realize that HP AS vs Summer is not the same as AS vs winter

Last edited by Kolyan2k; 11-10-2012 at 08:24 AM.
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      11-10-2012, 10:29 AM   #139
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Here is another good article about AWD, RWD, anoe tires and all season tires:

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...price-traction
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      11-10-2012, 10:48 AM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raj55 View Post
Looking at Clammys post it seems that the winter tyres are expensive in north America
They are... for example, a set of winter wheels and tires for my 335i from Tire Rack (online retailer, usually offering better pricing than most B&M stores here) just accepting their "preferred package" is $1,252.00 before shipping. That's 225/45R17 Pirelli Winter Sottozero Serie II Run Flat with MSW Type 22 17x7.5 wheels. Most people don't consider that a necessity, but it is awful reassuring to have them.

My current setup is Blizzaks on Style 157s which is probably a better setup than TR's, but please don't ask me how much I have in it... tried to buy stuff used 'n' cheap and while I got a great deal on the tires I ended up having to have two wheels repaired so there went all my savings, and one still has a nick in one of the beads but I needed to get them on the car so I will address that next spring. sigh... At least I don't worry about getting caught out in the snow however, and if it gets too bad I still have my trusty Jeep Cherokee.
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      11-10-2012, 12:34 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raj55 View Post
Looking at Clammys post it seems that the winter tyres are expensive in north America and it could be due to its low volume and stocking problem for tyre grossists (old winter tyres are not that good but better than all seasons!) With wide spread use, the prices are going to come down. It is a question of change of mind set regarding better grip and safety in winter and what price you are prepared to pay for it. Nice to see one convert, welome to the group Mr. Clammy from Canada.

By the way I paid total of 500 US dollars equivalent (about three years ago) for a set of new Nokian witer tyres with new aluminium rim (not BMW original rim) and they are still very good since they are used for such short period of time every year. Nokian Hakapelitta are just superb, they give you lot of grip and a lot of confidence on the winter road.
Thanks for the welcome.

Yeah, pretty much everything is more expensive here (and often significantly so, compared to the USA). High taxes, small population, large land mass (leading to higher shipping costs) all contribute. These days, I buy most "big-ticket" things online from US sellers. I live about 45 minutes away from the US border, so I can have items delivered to a UPS Store just over the border and go pick them up. Saves me TONS of cash.

Cheers!

Last edited by Clammy; 11-10-2012 at 01:41 PM.
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      11-10-2012, 04:38 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
So just for shits and grins I looked at the test results for the Yokohama AVID Envigor All-Season as compared to the Bridgestone Potenza RE050A RFT1 (the OEM tires that came on my sport package 325i in 2006). Here are the test numbers:

Yoko, Bridge
Slalom Dry, 5.33, 4.99,
Dry Lap, 31.75, 30.22,
Wet Lap, 33.76, 33.29,
Stop Dry, 93.70, 86.30
Stop Wet, 110.50, 115.40
Corner D, .84, .89
Corner W, .72, .74

There's not much difference in performance between these tires where it would make any difference on the street.
What about stopping distance? I added "Super Sports" and normal all season Bridgestone Ecopia EP422. Also I added Slalom Wet for all the tires.

--------- Yoko, -- Bridge -- Super sports -- Bridgestone-Ecopia
Slalom Dry, 5.33, -- 4.99, -- 5.04, ------- 5.43
Slalom Wet, 5.50 -- 5.23, -- 5.10, ------- 5.81
Dry Lap, 31.75,-- 30.22, -- 30.54, ------- 32.58
Wet Lap, 33.76,-- 33.29, -- 31.37, ------- 36.36
Stop Dry, 93.70,-- 86.30 -- 80.3, ------- 98.00
Stop Wet, 110.50,-- 115.40 -- 96.3, ------- 123.3
Corner D, .84, ---- .89 ----- 1.07, ------- .79
Corner W, .72, ---- .74 ----- 9.7, ------- .61

Clearly there are between mine and yours. (Mine are Super sports)
I'm not sure they used the same driver for the lap times.
-My stopping distance in the wet is better then most tires in the Dry.
-These tires were tested on 328i's so most other cars would have worse figures including stopping distances. It worries me whenever someone tailgates me but at least they will be paying for a new bumper. Also I have 255 in the back instead of the 225 in this test.

-sorry I couldn't make the chart better
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Last edited by gunnerxq; 11-10-2012 at 05:03 PM.
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      11-10-2012, 06:28 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunnerxq View Post
What about stopping distance? I added "Super Sports" and normal all season Bridgestone Ecopia EP422. Also I added Slalom Wet for all the tires.

--------- Yoko, -- Bridge -- Super sports -- Bridgestone-Ecopia
Slalom Dry, 5.33, -- 4.99, -- 5.04, ------- 5.43
Slalom Wet, 5.50 -- 5.23, -- 5.10, ------- 5.81
Dry Lap, 31.75,-- 30.22, -- 30.54, ------- 32.58
Wet Lap, 33.76,-- 33.29, -- 31.37, ------- 36.36
Stop Dry, 93.70,-- 86.30 -- 80.3, ------- 98.00
Stop Wet, 110.50,-- 115.40 -- 96.3, ------- 123.3
Corner D, .84, ---- .89 ----- 1.07, ------- .79
Corner W, .72, ---- .74 ----- 9.7, ------- .61

Clearly there are between mine and yours. (Mine are Super sports)
I'm not sure they used the same driver for the lap times.
-My stopping distance in the wet is better then most tires in the Dry.
-These tires were tested on 328i's so most other cars would have worse figures including stopping distances. It worries me whenever someone tailgates me but at least they will be paying for a new bumper. Also I have 255 in the back instead of the 225 in this test.

-sorry I couldn't make the chart better
Thanks for adding more tire data. Even the super sports are such a change in performance that safety is still not an issue. I'd like to know the treadwear rating and how many actual miles you'll get out of a set of super sports. I drive my E90 over 38,000 miles a year; I need to balance performance with tread life. My point was my Yoko's are close to what BMW used as OEM.
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      11-11-2012, 01:07 AM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Thanks for adding more tire data. Even the super sports are such a change in performance that safety is still not an issue. I'd like to know the treadwear rating and how many actual miles you'll get out of a set of super sports. I drive my E90 over 38,000 miles a year; I need to balance performance with tread life. My point was my Yoko's are close to what BMW used as OEM.
Oh ok I understand now. For me 13.4/14.2 ft dry and wet stopping distance between the two tires justify the costs. Your tread wear rating is 560 while mine are 300. Yours would cost $476 and super sports would cost $728 all 4 at 225 width. So I do see the cost differences add up.
Also From yours you should get 40,320 miles, while with the Super Sports you would get 21,600 miles.
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Last edited by gunnerxq; 11-11-2012 at 01:12 AM.
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      11-11-2012, 06:47 AM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunnerxq View Post
Oh ok I understand now. For me 13.4/14.2 ft dry and wet stopping distance between the two tires justify the costs. Your tread wear rating is 560 while mine are 300. Yours would cost $476 and super sports would cost $728 all 4 at 225 width. So I do see the cost differences add up.
Also From yours you should get 40,320 miles, while with the Super Sports you would get 21,600 miles.
Thanks, you're about the only one who understands and has been reasonable about it. My car came with the staggered sport package set up and the Bridgestones started making noise at about 12K (and I rotated them every 5K) and were toast at 24K. It was about the same time that my commute doubled in mileage and I did not want to be buying a set of tires every 6 months, plus I wanted to be able to cross rotate (or at least front to rear rotate) my tires to extend the treadlife.

I went with a non-staggered +1 set up using a 18 x 8.5 wheel and 235/40-18 high-performance All-Seasons. Once set up that way, I hardly found a difference in the car's handling. And I also found that going down to a 40-series tire with the 1 inch wheel diameter increase using an "XL" load rated tire, that the set up offers almost as good runflat performance as a real runflat. I actually holed a tire on Christmas out in the middle of nowhere on my way home very early Christmas morning with my wife 3-sheets to the wind. I had no desire to pull over and either plug the hole or use my mobility kit, so I drove the 25 miles or so home on the flat tire.

When I checked it later that day I found the tire still in good shape and with a hole in the tread that let the tire deflate in under 5 minutes, so I drove almost 35-40 minutes on zero pressure. I've run this setup now for 170,000+ miles and it works great for me. My average treadlife has gone up to about 34,000 miles per set. The AVID Envigors are a new tire (in the past year or so) and replaced the AVID WS4s I used twice in the past. We'll see how they do. My cost for the Yoks was $697 from the Rack + $90 mountng and balancing.

If I ran tires like you have and live in the northern climes, I'd buy a set of winter tires too. My point has just been, the proper high-performance All-Season is a good compromise to a two-set (Summer/Winter) tire package setup if encounter with snow is minimal.

Last edited by Efthreeoh; 11-11-2012 at 06:55 AM.
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      11-11-2012, 12:18 PM   #146
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I have a buddy with an '09 M3 that's running Michelin Pilot Sport 2 all-seasons.
He's very happy with them.
This is on Long Island, and we definitely get winters up here.
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      11-11-2012, 02:28 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galahad05 View Post
I have a buddy with an '09 M3 that's running Michelin Pilot Sport 2 all-seasons.
He's very happy with them.
This is on Long Island, and we definitely get winters up here.
poor m
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      11-11-2012, 02:39 PM   #148
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Eh, he got tired of the summer/winter tire swap dance.
He realizes he lost some performance in both ends of the year.
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      11-11-2012, 03:04 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galahad05 View Post
Eh, he got tired of the summer/winter tire swap dance.
He realizes he lost some performance in both ends of the year.
i think some places store and swap your wheels if you purchase from them. i swap mine in maybe 30 min with in-car jack. 1 hour per year lol
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      11-11-2012, 03:12 PM   #150
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The only problem is when I swap I feel obligated to clean/wax the wheels that came off before putting them in storage

But then again, I have nice looking wheels...
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      11-11-2012, 05:47 PM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolyan2k View Post
poor m
+1... Such a shame...
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      11-11-2012, 07:21 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galahad05
Put my brand new Pirelli Sottozero series II on today. In the snow/slush/water.
What??
Its already snowing in ur area?
I'm from Montreal and we do get a LOTS of snow ,icestorm but we haven't get anything yet?
Still about 12 degree centigrade )

BTW i have to exact same set up on my 335d msport
Pirelli sottozero 2 255/35/18-225/40/18
Third set over second winter with my car and love them))
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      11-12-2012, 10:48 AM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Thanks, you're about the only one who understands and has been reasonable about it. My car came with the staggered sport package set up and the Bridgestones started making noise at about 12K (and I rotated them every 5K) and were toast at 24K. It was about the same time that my commute doubled in mileage and I did not want to be buying a set of tires every 6 months, plus I wanted to be able to cross rotate (or at least front to rear rotate) my tires to extend the treadlife.

I went with a non-staggered +1 set up using a 18 x 8.5 wheel and 235/40-18 high-performance All-Seasons. Once set up that way, I hardly found a difference in the car's handling. And I also found that going down to a 40-series tire with the 1 inch wheel diameter increase using an "XL" load rated tire, that the set up offers almost as good runflat performance as a real runflat. I actually holed a tire on Christmas out in the middle of nowhere on my way home very early Christmas morning with my wife 3-sheets to the wind. I had no desire to pull over and either plug the hole or use my mobility kit, so I drove the 25 miles or so home on the flat tire.

When I checked it later that day I found the tire still in good shape and with a hole in the tread that let the tire deflate in under 5 minutes, so I drove almost 35-40 minutes on zero pressure. I've run this setup now for 170,000+ miles and it works great for me. My average treadlife has gone up to about 34,000 miles per set. The AVID Envigors are a new tire (in the past year or so) and replaced the AVID WS4s I used twice in the past. We'll see how they do. My cost for the Yoks was $697 from the Rack + $90 mountng and balancing.

If I ran tires like you have and live in the northern climes, I'd buy a set of winter tires too. My point has just been, the proper high-performance All-Season is a good compromise to a two-set (Summer/Winter) tire package setup if encounter with snow is minimal.
That is true that all seasons are a good compromise between the two. They would come in handy in the spring when the temperatures are too cold for summer and too hot for winter. And if I didn't drive this much in winter seasons I would of probably got continental DWS for the winter so they would last longer, but I'm not risking the possibility of getting stuck or sliding off the road on my 170 mile journeys.
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      11-12-2012, 12:15 PM   #154
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Saw something today that reminded me of this thread, and it's sadly not uncommon... was heading up to Lowe's on my lunch break in my beater Jeep and in the next lane over and just in front of me was a shiny black Merc G-something or other... looked really nice, except the tires were obviously on the wear bars and had been for some time. But AWD! Now who do you think is more likely to wreck next time shit falls from the sky, me in my 335i coupe, or Mrs. Merc-driver?

Unfortunately, people just don't understand that a crap car with good tires is going to go more safely and securely than a good car with crap tires... or they just don't care, or are trying to "get by as long as they can..." I don't get it. Good tires are the cheapest insurance you can buy, next to acquiring driving skill.
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