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      11-09-2012, 01:12 AM   #1
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Brainstorm thread

I think that there are ways that we can get these cars to make more power. I say this because besides going bigger turbos theres bolt ons and thats it. I think things like running 100% e85, cams, playing with compression, bigger throttle body, and porting heads are all viable things to do to this car and i honestly believe we can get these things to 500whp on stock turbos.

Any way im making this thread as a way for the community to talk about new ideas for these cars to go fast.

Any contributions or comments are welcome, as long as they further the discussion in this thread.
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      11-09-2012, 01:25 AM   #2
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All the things you mention are much more trouble than swapping turbos.

I came from platforms where we had to built (and re-build) to make any power. IMO, future is in turbos, and revs. The tunes are plenty and potent.
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      11-09-2012, 01:34 AM   #3
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I am looking to get the vargas gtx kit just waiting for them to be released. In the meantime why not make the motor as efficient as possible? I think a good multi angle valve job and cams could give us potentially 50+whp even on stock turbos...

Why not swap turbos and port the heads? I think one of the problems with the vishnu single turbo is that it needs a higher rev limit and head work and cams would fix that problem. I think the Vishnu turbo kit is a good kit but the stock n54 just doesnt rev high enough to make crazy power on a single turbo. I mean look at the 2jz stock it revs up to what like 7k? and they make them rev up to 9k to make good power
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      11-09-2012, 02:31 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Will@StageX
I am looking to get the vargas gtx kit just waiting for them to be released. In the meantime why not make the motor as efficient as possible? I think a good multi angle valve job and cams could give us potentially 50+whp even on stock turbos...

Why not swap turbos and port the heads? I think one of the problems with the vishnu single turbo is that it needs a higher rev limit and head work and cams would fix that problem. I think the Vishnu turbo kit is a good kit but the stock n54 just doesnt rev high enough to make crazy power on a single turbo. I mean look at the 2jz stock it revs up to what like 7k? and they make them rev up to 9k to make good power
+1

I think cam's and head work to increase the safe RPM range would be best. Seems like it would increase the usefulness and overall acheivable power figures.
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      11-09-2012, 02:53 PM   #5
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You will need a custom crank and vibration damper to hold 9,000RPM. Sounds like a pipe dream. Stroke is too long to get those kind of revs with any semblance of reliability.
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      11-09-2012, 03:20 PM   #6
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Piping from air intake to turbos is very restrictive. Really hoping that someone comes up with a fix.

Neil
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      11-09-2012, 03:54 PM   #7
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Will,
You will be very disappointed by how little gain you will get on cams and headwork on a N54
If this was a big displacement N/A V8 then yes cams/heads w/bigger values and you are up 100hp. A few blots-ons: intake-throttle body-Intake Manifold-headers you are up another 50-70hp

On a small displacement turbo motor, the formula is simple, lowest possible restriction on the exhaust side, most efficient intercooler (maybe even CO2 IC chiller) and charge piping + lots and lots of octane.

Don’t get me wrong you will see some gains with headwork, but is 5K worth 30hp?
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      11-09-2012, 04:07 PM   #8
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I think with the upcoming fuel pump upgrades or maybe even bigger injectors if its possible, we can run maybe more ethanol and get rid of the fuel bottlenecks
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      11-09-2012, 04:13 PM   #9
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I may be wrong, but fuel injectors aren't the problem for fuel supply. It's the LPFP.

Wasn't nitrous popular several years ago? I don't hear much of people running nitrous on these cars. A 50hp kick would be nice and cheap though I dunno how reliable it would be.
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      11-09-2012, 04:55 PM   #10
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VAC Motorsports currently sells upgraded cylinder heads so that is possible, but otherwise we should be investigating:
  • New Fueling System (Injectors, Pumps)
  • Upgraded Internals (Rods, Pistons)
  • Upgraded Engine Block (Increased Displacement, Sleeved Block, etc)
  • Cams (Super Pricey)
  • Crankshaft (Super Duper Pricey)
  • Intake/Exhaust Manifolds
  • Completely ditching the OEM DME for an AEM, MoTec or ProEFI ECUs

And then obviously the supporting mods that go along with this significant upgrade in power. So reinforcing the Engine/Trans Mounts, Upgrading & Reinforcing the Drivetrain, etc

THIS is all possible (the 2JZ didn't become THE motor to have until ~6 yrs after it finished product, so we go another 2 of R&D ahead of us), just someone needs the resources (money) to willing spend.
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      11-09-2012, 05:59 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benzy89 View Post
VAC Motorsports currently sells upgraded cylinder heads so that is possible, but otherwise we should be investigating:
  • New Fueling System (Injectors, Pumps)
  • Upgraded Internals (Rods, Pistons)
  • Upgraded Engine Block (Increased Displacement, Sleeved Block, etc)
  • Cams (Super Pricey)
  • Crankshaft (Super Duper Pricey)
  • Intake/Exhaust Manifolds
  • Completely ditching the OEM DME for an AEM, MoTec or ProEFI ECUs

And then obviously the supporting mods that go along with this significant upgrade in power. So reinforcing the Engine/Trans Mounts, Upgrading & Reinforcing the Drivetrain, etc

THIS is all possible (the 2JZ didn't become THE motor to have until ~6 yrs after it finished product, so we go another 2 of R&D ahead of us), just someone needs the resources (money) to willing spend.
your list has some great ideas and you bring up a great point about the 2jz and its R&D time.

however right now i dont think this car needs new injectors i saw somewhere some one stated that the injectors can go up to 3300cc

the lpfp and hpfp could use upgrading but i believe that is currently being worked out

in regards to messing with the block i dont really think upgraded pistons or rods are going to be needed until really big power and just replacing those components arent going to give you power unless you change compression

you do bring up an interesting idea with the crankshaft i wonder if we could get in touch with someone who could make us a stroker kit. Supras have stroker kits that go up to 3.4l and i think but dont quote me on this that all they do is change the pistons rods and crank shaft there is no touching the block itself a 3.4l n54 would be really cool and could make some extra power on all forms of turbos from stock to single

and as far as manifolds go if you were going to play around with the stock exhaust manifold i think you minus well buy bigger turbos but with the intake manifold i think it would be interesting to make one bigger maybe with a bigger throttle body and see how that plays out
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      11-09-2012, 06:03 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesM3M5 View Post
You will need a custom crank and vibration damper to hold 9,000RPM. Sounds like a pipe dream. Stroke is too long to get those kind of revs with any semblance of reliability.
our stroke isnt much longer than a 2jz

89mm for the n54 and 86mm for the 2jz

now that may be alot in the world of strokes so my flame suit is on but i dont think 3mm is enough to make our motor not be able to rev out any more
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      11-09-2012, 07:03 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benzy89 View Post
VAC Motorsports currently sells upgraded cylinder heads so that is possible, but otherwise we should be investigating:
  • New Fueling System (Injectors, Pumps)
  • Upgraded Internals (Rods, Pistons)
  • Upgraded Engine Block (Increased Displacement, Sleeved Block, etc)
  • Cams (Super Pricey)
  • Crankshaft (Super Duper Pricey)
  • Intake/Exhaust Manifolds
  • Completely ditching the OEM DME for an AEM, MoTec or ProEFI ECUs

And then obviously the supporting mods that go along with this significant upgrade in power. So reinforcing the Engine/Trans Mounts, Upgrading & Reinforcing the Drivetrain, etc

THIS is all possible (the 2JZ didn't become THE motor to have until ~6 yrs after it finished product, so we go another 2 of R&D ahead of us), just someone needs the resources (money) to willing spend.
Well remember, the 2JZ didn't have anything like Vanos, even VVTI in the later models was pretty lame. If someone wants to run a cam that can push as much duration and lift as the N54s stock cams can through Vanos, then it would have a very choppy idle and terrible midrange characteristics. Making custom Vanos cams would be VERY expensive lol.

I think there will be a good deal of power in the head, I've heard it doesn't flow all that well; and the intake manifold/TB.
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      11-09-2012, 07:05 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Will@StageX View Post
our stroke isnt much longer than a 2jz

89mm for the n54 and 86mm for the 2jz

now that may be alot in the world of strokes so my flame suit is on but i dont think 3mm is enough to make our motor not be able to rev out any more
If anything, destroking the N54 might be a decent idea. You decrease the piston speed and make higher-rpm operation more reliable.

Though to be fair, there are plenty of 9000+rpm Supras running around (stock redline was 6800). They've just got the headwork and non-street-friendly cams and the turbo to move the air.
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      11-09-2012, 07:09 PM   #15
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[quote=Wasn't nitrous popular several years ago? I don't hear much of people running nitrous on these cars. A 50hp kick would be nice and cheap though I dunno how reliable it would be.[/QUOTE]

If I'm not mistaken Shiv was also looking into this, but never integrated nitrous into the platform. It seemed like a safe option as long as things were conservative. I have not heard of anyone blowing up their engine using a separate progressive controller or JB4.
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      11-09-2012, 07:20 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHECKERED View Post
Will,
You will be very disappointed by how little gain you will get on cams and headwork on a N54
If this was a big displacement N/A V8 then yes cams/heads w/bigger values and you are up 100hp. A few blots-ons: intake-throttle body-Intake Manifold-headers you are up another 50-70hp

On a small displacement turbo motor, the formula is simple, lowest possible restriction on the exhaust side, most efficient intercooler (maybe even CO2 IC chiller) and charge piping + lots and lots of octane.

Don’t get me wrong you will see some gains with headwork, but is 5K worth 30hp?
+100

There is a guy up here that ported, polished, etc. his engine. Not including the labor for the mechanic or the cost of parts (RB turbos, plugs, injectors, etc that were also bought) I was told the shop spent over 40-hours on his block doing what he wanted done. Assuming they bill out $100/hour (which I am sure its higher), thats a $4,000 bill right there.

He is expecting to put out around 550-570 hp on RB's but his bill will be well above and beyond what the majority of us are willing to spend for a 40 hp gain not to mention his engine was out of commission for half the summer getting worked on. I was told doing what he had done, was more for increasing reliability under high boost, than strictly for HP gains.

From what I understand, engines putting out crazy HP or V8's are the only time you actually see a noticeable difference to get your engine worked on like that where the costs - benefit factor make it worth it.
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      11-10-2012, 02:59 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDORPHN View Post
Piping from air intake to turbos is very restrictive. Really hoping that someone comes up with a fix.

Neil
This is something someone really needs to get done and tested.

Aside from that Nitrouss
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      11-10-2012, 03:50 AM   #18
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OP, you must have a big budget. 10k for turbo kit and another 10k for head, cams, custom tuning and possibly other engine internals? If you do it properly you should upgrade all the engine internals. $25k?
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      11-10-2012, 05:01 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jippii ensio View Post
OP, you must have a big budget. 10k for turbo kit and another 10k for head, cams, custom tuning and possibly other engine internals? If you do it properly you should upgrade all the engine internals. $25k?

i will get the gtx kit when it comes out and i see numbers i like. However i made this thread to do exactly what its called to brainstorm for ideas about how to make this car faster if someone comes out with good cams i would get them if vac motorsports released their head work numbers and didnt just tell me to trust their experience in the field i would buy them so maybe i do have a big budget but this thread is supposed to help the community as a whole
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      11-10-2012, 09:02 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Will@StageX View Post
i will get the gtx kit when it comes out and i see numbers i like. However i made this thread to do exactly what its called to brainstorm for ideas about how to make this car faster if someone comes out with good cams i would get them if vac motorsports released their head work numbers and didnt just tell me to trust their experience in the field i would buy them so maybe i do have a big budget but this thread is supposed to help the community as a whole
You can increase rpm by upgrading valves, rods and pistons. 500 whp with stockers is possible but expensive.
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      11-10-2012, 09:40 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDORPHN View Post
Piping from air intake to turbos is very restrictive. Really hoping that someone comes up with a fix.

Neil
I agree, intake pipes are very restrictive. Upgraded parts already exist...but,

1. One model is made by Alpina for the B3 biturbo. They will not sell the part individually as the upgraded pipes are only included in the Alpina car itself.

2. I believe there are replica parts (larger intake pipes and upgraded intake box) that are in sale in Europe (manhart should be one of them) but those costs over 2500. If a company here can grab a set and mass produce them, they might have a market for the US.
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      11-10-2012, 10:14 AM   #22
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How about decreasing weight versus making more power? Imagine how incredible these cars would be with 500HP and 3,100lbs versus 3,500. What are the best/easiest/least expensive places to drop weight?

Wheels/Tires
Exhaust
Seats
Rotors
Body panels

Not sure if it is even possible to get our cars down to 3,100lbs, but if you figure our power to weight ratio at 3,500lbs/500HP is 7lbs per HP, at 3,100lbs we'd be 6.2lbs per HP, which would be around 560HP at 3,500lbs, so you'll have gained the equivalent of 60HP plus all the benefits of reduced weight on handling/braking.

OP - sorry if this wasn't the direction you were thinking.

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