[JMARS]

Hey guys,
I've been talking with some of my High HP (700-1100whp) Vette/Mustang friends that are running 100% e85 and they've all been telling me the same story, that the frequency of Oil Changes while running 100% e85 dramatically increases due to the contaminants from the e85 during combustion/blow-by.
*During the combustion cycle there is some blow-by that occurs between the cylinder walls and piston via piston rings, I'm sure it increases for the N54's as well at increased power levels +500whp.

Anyways, they were all telling me they change their oil every 1,800-2,000 miles (not a typo).

When I had my 1200whp c6 vette e85 was new on the streets back in 07-08 so there wasn't much testing that could have been done, no one really had real world high horse power experience on e85 for a prolonged time.
This all doesn't really make sense to me because there are so many FlexFuel cars running around running 100% e85, I know their power levels are much much lower but I've just never really heard of this before till yesterday.

Any input would be great!

[enrita]

I dont see why...what about flexfuel cars?

[ajm8127]

Used. Oil. Analysis.

[Spoolin1]

In my stock block 800+ whp Honda S2000 that's running 100% e85, I change the oil every 750-1000 miles, but I only put about 1000 miles a year on it and I'm very anal about oil changes. I also only run Amsoil 10w40 premium oil with a very high TBN, which has high detergents to combat acids of fuel. Use a desiel oil, Amsoil or something like Brad Penn that has a high TBN and you can safely get 2500 miles out of your oil with 100% e85. I've done a lot of studying on oils also and high TBN and ZDDP oils are the way to go with whatever fuel you run. Unfortunately, the standard oil you purchase at the local stores doesn't cut it anymore since the great government mandated lowering ZDDP to help save the life of the catilytic converter, which has bad long term effects all around for the engine.

On a side note, my 07 335i is still stock and only has 27k miles. At around 21k miles (about 8000 miles on the factory oil), I sent the oil in to Blackstone for an analysis and they recommended changing it asap because it was breaking down pretty good. I have no idea why on earth BMW states to change the oil at 10k-12k miles or once a year or whatever it is, there is no way that oil can safely last that long (Castrol BMW oil anyway) without dier consequences over time. Now that my car just fell out of the factory BMW warranty and the free oil changes are done, I have switched to Amsoil premium oil and will be changing it every 5000 miles and Amsoil is way superior over the BMW junk.

[E90Company]

Interested in hearing what setup you had on your C6. Dyno/Slips?

[JMARS]

Originally Posted by Spoolin1

In my stock block 800+ whp Honda S2000 that's running 100% e85, I change the oil every 750-1000 miles, but I only put about 1000 miles a year on it and I'm very anal about oil changes. I also only run Amsoil 10w40 premium oil with a very high TBN, which has high detergents to combat acids of fuel. Use a desiel oil, Amsoil or something like Brad Penn that has a high TBN and you can safely get 2500 miles out of your oil with 100% e85. I've done a lot of studying on oils also and high TBN and ZDDP oils are the way to go with whatever fuel you run. Unfortunately, the standard oil you purchase at the local stores doesn't cut it anymore since the great government mandated lowering ZDDP to help save the life of the catilytic converter, which has bad long term effects all around for the engine.

On a side note, my 07 335i is still stock and only has 27k miles. At around 21k miles (about 8000 miles on the factory oil), I sent the oil in to Blackstone for an analysis and they recommended changing it asap because it was breaking down pretty good. I have no idea why on earth BMW states to change the oil at 10k-12k miles or once a year or whatever it is, there is no way that oil can safely last that long (Castrol BMW oil anyway) without dier consequences over time. Now that my car just fell out of the factory BMW warranty and the free oil changes are done, I have switched to Amsoil premium oil and will be changing it every 5000 miles and Amsoil is way superior over the BMW junk.

So your saying there is a reason to change your oil every 2k?

Originally Posted by E90Company

Interested in hearing what setup you had on your C6. Dyno/Slips?

Nick, it's not hard to make big power with big displacement. Get a 427 block and slap on a couple of T-70 turbos, add plenty of fuel and bam! 1200 to the wheels lol

[Spoolin1]

Originally Posted by JMARS

So your saying there is a reason to change your oil every 2k?




Nick, it's not hard to make big power with big displacement. Get a 427 block and slap on a couple of T-70 turbos, add plenty of fuel and bam! 1200 to the wheels lol

It depends on what oil you run. If you just run the BMW or some other off the shelf junk, you need to change it at every 2000 miles max. If you run a premuim oil like Amsoil, Brad Penn or a really good desiel oil that has really high TBN and ZDDP, then you can safely get by with around 4000 miles max, but you'd still probably want to change it every 3000 miles just to be safe. Your best bet though is to contact Blackstone and do a oil analysis' at different intervals to determine the real effects of e85 on the oil of your choice.

[ADebelius]

I don't know... Everyone complains about the stock oil, but here's my UOA with stock BMW 5w-30 and Cobb Stage 1+ for over 12k miles. Seems like everything has been tip top, though I switched to Motul 8100 XCess 5w-40 before I got the results of this. We'll see which one performs better...

[spool twice]

great to know, lets keep this thread going for more links in regards to E85 and oil changes

[Joshboody]

Originally Posted by Spoolin1

It depends on what oil you run. If you just run the BMW or some other off the shelf junk, you need to change it at every 2000 miles max. If you run a premuim oil like Amsoil, Brad Penn or a really good desiel oil that has really high TBN and ZDDP, then you can safely get by with around 4000 miles max, but you'd still probably want to change it every 3000 miles just to be safe. Your best bet though is to contact Blackstone and do a oil analysis' at different intervals to determine the real effects of e85 on the oil of your choice.

Actually I think it's the opposite. The performance oils you mentioned need to be changed more often. The "approved" BMW oils will retain their properties longer, but just don't perform as well out of the box... lubrication film, heat resistance, etc.

I really know nothing on this subject, and have considering whether I should switch. I understand the popular synthetics have changed for the worse over the years.

[Dave W.]

Something else to consider, many of the high HP guys are also running built motors with looser clearances, which produces more blowby to contaminate the oil. I've seen many loosley built race engines on E85 that will contaminate the oil after 1000 miles to the point where the oil smells like alcohol. One guy I know has such bad blowby that his oil looked like a coffee/Kahlua milkshake. His motor went soft shortly after that.
The stock N54 runs tight tolerances since it has aluminum pistons and cylinders. I was surprised to learn the stock piston-to-wall clearance on the N54 is 0.0000 to 0.0002" compared to a typical race engine built around 0.0035 to 0.0065" clearance.

[JMARS]

Originally Posted by Dave W.

I was surprised to learn the stock piston-to-wall clearance on the N54 is 0.0000 to 0.0002" compared to a typical race engine built around 0.0035 to 0.0065" clearance.

[Rotary Rasp]

Originally Posted by Dave W.

Something else to consider, many of the high HP guys are also running built motors with looser clearances, which produces more blowby to contaminate the oil. I've seen many loosley built race engines on E85 that will contaminate the oil after 1000 miles to the point where the oil smells like alcohol. One guy I know has such bad blowby that his oil looked like a coffee/Kahlua milkshake. His motor went soft shortly after that.
The stock N54 runs tight tolerances since it has aluminum pistons and cylinders. I was surprised to learn the stock piston-to-wall clearance on the N54 is 0.0000 to 0.0002" compared to a typical race engine built around 0.0035 to 0.0065" clearance.

I thought the N54 has steel sleeved cylinders?

[NoTempoLimitN54]

Originally Posted by ADebelius

I don't know... Everyone complains about the stock oil, but here's my UOA with stock BMW 5w-30 and Cobb Stage 1+ for over 12k miles. Seems like everything has been tip top, though I switched to Motul 8100 XCess 5w-40 before I got the results of this. We'll see which one performs better...

ADebelius, did you add anything to boost the ZDDP levels in your oil? ZDDP shows up as the P and Zn levels in oil analysis. Your wear metals are great, but you're showing 1141 P, 1287 Zn which is substantially higher than I've seen in BMW's 5W-30 "OEM" oil. Those are the kind of Zn/P numbers I expect to see in "high performance" or "Diesel" oils.

Higher than normal ZDDP plus Molybdenum is a potent combination that can drastically reduce engine wear.

My UOA for BMW 5W-30 showed 780 P, 930 Zn after 3800 miles in my N54, I've seen virgin oil analysis on BMW OEM 5W-30 showing 745 P, 841 Zn. Castrol unfortunately does not publish official numbers for these additives.

Also, you managed to maintain 11.33 cSt viscosity 100ºC after 12k miles, I had only 10.58 cSt after 3800 miles. Do you do mostly highway driving?

[vasillalov]

Don't forget that different the condition of the piston rings is different between different engines. Same goes for the PCV system, fuels, driving habits and local environment. Ultimately this leads to statistically different reports.

Also, Blackstone Labs tells your ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the condition of the engine or how well the oil protects it. It ONLY tells you how much service life there is left in the oil.

To stay on topic: I would imagine that with increased mixture of E85, one would want to pay more attention to oil changes. I do mine @ 5K miles regardless.

[shaginwagon13]

Originally Posted by JMARS

When I had my 1200whp c6 vette...

That's insane... post some pics of the beast??

[MDORPHN]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

Also, Blackstone Labs tells your ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the condition of the engine or how well the oil protects it. It ONLY tells you how much service life there is left in the oil.

I'm sorry, but that's plain wrong.

By analyzing the metals found in the oil, you're alerted to bearing wear (copper/lead), ring wear (chromium), cylinder slap/scuffing and head/valvetrain wear (aluminum).

"By knowing the amount of each elemental metal in the sample, you are able to narrow down and monitor wear patterns of specific components in an engine, such as bearings or valve stems. Not only can an analysis detect these elemental metals, they can also detect various types of contamination too. Insoluble matter (carbon, dirt, etc), fuel, or coolant can all be detected, and give you the ability to spot any abnormalities before they become a costly or dangerous problem."

Source: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/engine-oil-analysis/


Neil

[ADebelius]

Originally Posted by NoTempoLimitN54

ADebelius, did you add anything to boost the ZDDP levels in your oil? ZDDP shows up as the P and Zn levels in oil analysis. Your wear metals are great, but you're showing 1141 P, 1287 Zn which is substantially higher than I've seen in BMW's 5W-30 "OEM" oil. Those are the kind of Zn/P numbers I expect to see in "high performance" or "Diesel" oils.

Higher than normal ZDDP plus Molybdenum is a potent combination that can drastically reduce engine wear.

My UOA for BMW 5W-30 showed 780 P, 930 Zn after 3800 miles in my N54, I've seen virgin oil analysis on BMW OEM 5W-30 showing 745 P, 841 Zn. Castrol unfortunately does not publish official numbers for these additives.

Also, you managed to maintain 11.33 cSt viscosity 100ºC after 12k miles, I had only 10.58 cSt after 3800 miles. Do you do mostly highway driving?

The car is still under factory warranty until next month, so the oil until the most recent change (after this report) have been from the dealer. I highly doubt they decided to give me some special performance version oil haha. Couldn't tell you why P and ZN levels are higher than your virgin oil test. Also, I do approximately 50/50 city/highway. No autocross or tracking though, but I do get on it.

[NoTempoLimitN54]

EPA rejects bid to relax ethanol mandate:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...4#post13011804

Also, deeper in the story, EPA approves E15 (15% ethanol), most automakers are against this.