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      11-14-2012, 07:24 PM   #1
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Lightbulb Buyer refund question

I recently sold an item to a member and he determined it is not working.

Here's the deal folks:
Shipped item to buyer, he lives in Canada. UPS did not inform me of Customs Fees the seller has to pay. Before I shipped the item, it was working fine, I tested it myself and it was functional on my own car before shipping. Item are Lux Angel Eyes.

When I removed them from the headlight enclosure, I inspected each LED. They were working.

Buyer installs himself, says a few LEDs are burnt. Item is out of warranty. He can get them repaired through Lux however, it would cost a ton of money shipping back and forth.

NOW, as a seller, what would be fair to do?

Note: I have sold several items on this forum and there's tons of people who can personally vouch for me as I have been on the board for quite awhile and have been to countless meets. I am not intending to rip anyone off or be shady, however, as a private seller, it does not seem fair to me to simply eat the loss of the entire transaction.

IF the seller was local or in the same country, then I would think it is fair to split the diff. of some sort of the repair. However, keep in mind, I did test the product prior to shipping. If it was on my car and not functioning correctly, I would notice and get it fixed myself. Reason why I sold was my lease return ends early next year and I was simply putting my car to stock. I have already took off almost all my parts.

Thoughts?

Appreciate the honest feedback.
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      11-14-2012, 07:39 PM   #2
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f'in canada. had a similar situation when i was selling on ebay. guy said he never got it, couldn't prove either way. even though my terms said i wasn't liable, he used paypal so i could have been screwed anyway.

i ended up giving him a partial refund, basically broke even.
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      11-14-2012, 07:45 PM   #3
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I would give him a refund and have him return the item back to you
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      11-14-2012, 08:15 PM   #4
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This is the thing, at this point there is nothing you can do. Usually before I sell anything, I take pictures and maybe even a video saying today is November 14, here are the lights, they are completely functional. And if they complain, then you have proof and you are not liable.

Since you can not prove that they were working when you sent them (Even though I am sure they were), then there is nothing you can do. The best option would be for him to send them back, and you refund him.
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      11-14-2012, 08:20 PM   #5
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      11-14-2012, 08:47 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inspired View Post
I would give him a refund and have him return the item back to you
x2

For the the past 4 years I only ship to the lower 48 with a few exceptions...
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      11-14-2012, 09:46 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inspired View Post
I would give him a refund and have him return the item back to you
Not quite in that order though. He returns the stuff, then you give him a refund of what he paid you. I wouldn't refund customs fees, as that is the buyer's (importer's) issue, not yours.
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      11-15-2012, 11:49 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scollins View Post
Not quite in that order though. He returns the stuff, then you give him a refund of what he paid you. I wouldn't refund customs fees, as that is the buyer's (importer's) issue, not yours.
Thanks folks.
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      11-15-2012, 03:54 PM   #9
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Hey guys, thanks for all the replies, also thanks to OC as well for helping me out the entire time. He is a great seller, and has been there every step of the way. I however hadn't seen pictures of them on the car, not their condition, just as OC had mentioned he IS a very trusted member for which reason, my morals gave me no choice but to trust him completely-- which I still do, of course. However, when "installed", I only plugged the lights into the connectors to turn them on, however I hadn't positioned them inside the light at this point when I noticed two of the LED's out, so in terms of installation difficulties, the bulbs weren't placed inside the bulb for it to have been damaged. Being myself an avid member of this forum, I searched and viewed various videos before installing them, before even getting the Lux.

I wouldn't have minded paying customs as I understand what UPS does, but wasn't expecting as much as USPS doesn't f*** importers as much, lol. Even with the import fees I was happy, however with the item not working I'm not sure whether its fair for me to also bear the entire fees and end up with less than half what I paid after returning the item. Not saying that I'm right or wrong, but again fairness is the biggest concern here.

Any and all suggestions are welcome to help through this problem, but for some reason I don't feel that me burdening all the costs should be fair, just as it wouldn't be fair for the seller to lose money.
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      11-15-2012, 04:13 PM   #10
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I doubt the seller wants the item back

so... take the price the buyer paid for the item, minus shipping TO the buyer, then minus shipping FROM the buyer, and refund that amount.

This way, the postal service doesn't get the return shipment costs.
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      11-15-2012, 04:22 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by persian54 View Post
I doubt the seller wants the item back

so... take the price the buyer paid for the item, minus shipping TO the buyer, then minus shipping FROM the buyer, and refund that amount.

This way, the postal service doesn't get the return shipment costs.
Well, I'm thinking in this case exactly the same-- That the shipper doesn't want the item back. So, perhaps I get a quote from Lux as to the cost of repair/replacement and buyer/seller split the costs in a fairway, again keeping in mind the cost the buyer as well as the loss to the shipper in total.
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      11-15-2012, 06:43 PM   #12
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So seller has the highest post count here I've seen but there is no evidence that the light was fully working when sent, but nor is there evidence to the contrary, so it's a who-said scenario.
Both parties appear to want a 'fair' resolution so I guess you guys can mash it out here as you prefer.

Normally when I deal, I check everything 100% before I send, with evidence, if something goes wrong or the buyer is shady then there is back-up.
Otherwise it's just down to can you get your money back through paypal and FU to the other guy, because nobody knows who is shady or not or whether damage occured in shipping, if the led was already out before shipping or was damaged by the buyer on installation.
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      11-15-2012, 08:20 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grimlock View Post
So seller has the highest post count here I've seen but there is no evidence that the light was fully working when sent, but nor is there evidence to the contrary, so it's a who-said scenario.
Both parties appear to want a 'fair' resolution so I guess you guys can mash it out here as you prefer.

Normally when I deal, I check everything 100% before I send, with evidence, if something goes wrong or the buyer is shady then there is back-up.
Otherwise it's just down to can you get your money back through paypal and FU to the other guy, because nobody knows who is shady or not or whether damage occured in shipping, if the led was already out before shipping or was damaged by the buyer on installation.
It is kind of hard to prove that the light was working to begin with. Just because there was a picture of the light working perfectly fine means nothing because the seller could easily swap out the working one with a broken one. The only legitimate evidence is to have a 3rd party witness that the lights were working and have them ship it out to the buyer personally.
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      11-15-2012, 08:55 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inspired View Post
It is kind of hard to prove that the light was working to begin with. Just because there was a picture of the light working perfectly fine means nothing because the seller could easily swap out the working one with a broken one. The only legitimate evidence is to have a 3rd party witness that the lights were working and have them ship it out to the buyer personally.
True, but even a third party can be bought/fixed, it's just how far are you willing to go. Taking a pic is easy and makes your 'likely to cheat' percent go from 50% to 80%.
It's all based on trust. If both parties are operating on good faith, ie. neither are knowingly cheating, then either the leds were already bust (seller never said he checked 100% each led was working), damaged in shipping (unlikely with these goods), or the buyer bust it without realizing it. Only they know! This is the non-cheating scenario.
Cheaters, well you just have to develop a sense to avoid them, they'll be scammers for as long as the world exists.
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      11-15-2012, 09:36 PM   #15
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Unfortunately shipping via UPS to Canada is the worst for Canadians. UPS almost always tacks on Brokerage Fees and such easily doubling the cost of small items. UPSP is better however you need to pay extra for Tracking Numbers.

As for the purchase there is always a matter of trust in both parties when selling and buying. Using third parties to ensure each person sends and receives a working product may be too much time and effort especially for selling items such as angel eyes. It is a risk a buyer and seller takes especially on forums. It is also the reason why people purchase vehicles like CPO and used dealer vehicles rather than purchasing privately. Some are not willing to take that risk.

As for what would be fair. Since neither one of you can really prove who would be responsible you can

1. File claim with shipping company. Split difference for the cost if any.

2. Send item for repair and split the repair cost.


Hope everything works out.
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      11-19-2012, 01:43 PM   #16
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Thanks for all the suggestions. We are both pretty reasonable so far and are trying to work towards a fair resolution for both sides. We will see what LUX says as far as repair costs and determine whether it makes sense or not.

The buyer has been pretty patient so far and we both have good communication so I am confident we can work something out.

Unfortunately, it is a scenario where we can't prove it was working before or not but neither side is pointing fingers here, we just want a fair resolution. Lesson learned, document and test better prior to shipping on my part. I have been to LTBMW's shop several times and I think he would have pointed out, your Angel eyes aren't working or aren't bright at all, what's wrong? I'll sell you a new one. But I did inspect each item before testing, I just never had a problem in selling anything before, I didn't expect one here.

I have an ebay rating of 82 with no negatives and have done several, several transactions here. I have many people on this forum that know me personally and can vouch for my character.

The most important thing is both sides are working towards a solution. I thank the buyer again, for being patient while we figure out a fair solution.
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      11-20-2012, 03:56 AM   #17
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That is why you buy insurance. It only cost a few bucks to add and you both would have your money by now. But I would just split everything down the middle now.
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      11-20-2012, 11:29 AM   #18
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The package was insured actually...
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