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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > NA Engine (non-turbo) / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications > N52 e85/meth ?



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      08-10-2014, 05:51 AM   #1
colin_e90
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N52 e85/meth ?

Has anyone attempted to get a tune for meth injection or e85 for the n52? Was wondering if any at least small gains are possible doing this? Have seen naturally aspirated m cars do it so thought n52 would have something but nothing showed up in the search
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      08-10-2014, 04:31 PM   #2
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you'd need a lot of compression to make use of e85. e85 is less efficient at making power than gasoline, but it has a very high octane value. Turbo cars compensate for this with the ability to run more boost, but with an NA car, you need to increase compression and timing to offset the loss in power.

So unless you are planning on rebuilding your motor, you are going to have a hard time making any more power than stock with e85.
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      08-10-2014, 04:35 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike-y
you'd need a lot of compression to make use of e85. e85 is less efficient at making power than gasoline, but it has a very high octane value. Turbo cars compensate for this with the ability to run more boost, but with an NA car, you need to increase compression and timing to offset the loss in power.

So unless you are planning on rebuilding your motor, you are going to have a hard time making any more power than stock with e85.
So m cars are able to do this since they have tougher built engine internals that can withstand the change in compression?
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      08-10-2014, 05:46 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colin_e90 View Post
So m cars are able to do this since they have tougher built engine internals that can withstand the change in compression?
It's not about the strength of the internals themselves, it's about how much ignition timing (spark) and compression you can run.
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      08-10-2014, 11:50 PM   #5
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Plus the E85 isn't the nicest on fuel systems.
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      08-11-2014, 09:41 AM   #6
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aren't N52s 12.5:1 compression? that's pretty high for an N/A motor.
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      08-11-2014, 10:12 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hassmaschine View Post
aren't N52s 10.5:1 compression? that's pretty high for an N/A motor.
Fixed.
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      08-11-2014, 02:44 PM   #8
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it's actually 10.7:1 (don't know where I'd read 12.5:1). but yeah, maybe or maybe not enough to take advantage of something like E85. you'd need to be able to adjust the tune and you'd have to upgrade the entire fuel system.
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      08-11-2014, 02:46 PM   #9
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Yea I was checking in on e46fanatics and see how they were on this same topic and really only possible if you were able to upgrade the injectors and fuel pump but those things aren't available for the n52
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      08-11-2014, 03:33 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colin_e90 View Post
Yea I was checking in on e46fanatics and see how they were on this same topic and really only possible if you were able to upgrade the injectors and fuel pump but those things aren't available for the n52
And not really worth the cost either.
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      08-11-2014, 03:42 PM   #11
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Yea real gains come when your boosted
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      08-11-2014, 04:26 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colin_e90 View Post
Yea I was checking in on e46fanatics and see how they were on this same topic and really only possible if you were able to upgrade the injectors and fuel pump but those things aren't available for the n52
what do you mean? there's no reason you couldn't upgrade the injectors and fuel pump. there's nothing that special about the N52, it's not DI and doesn't have a HPFP. not that I believe it would be worth the cost.
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      08-11-2014, 04:32 PM   #13
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I haven't seen anyone talk about putting bigger injectors in their n52, been on some big sites like **********s and turner and no bigger injectors available for the n52. I know bigger injectors and fuel pump is a good decent mod. Had mustang injectors in my old e36 and that was really pleasant
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      08-12-2014, 07:28 AM   #14
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injectors are pretty standard parts, you'd just need to find one with the same body size that flowed more. You probably haven't seen anyone do it because there's no benefit without a seriously modified motor. there's no point in upgrading the injectors by themselves, plus it wouldn't work without retuning the computer anyway.

I don't know how big the N52 injectors are but BMW typically sizes them with lots of headroom available that I doubt anyone is pushing a relatively stock N52 past.
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      08-12-2014, 07:39 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hassmaschine
injectors are pretty standard parts, you'd just need to find one with the same body size that flowed more. You probably haven't seen anyone do it because there's no benefit without a seriously modified motor. there's no point in upgrading the injectors by themselves, plus it wouldn't work without retuning the computer anyway.
Hmm I'm gonna look into if the mustang injectors that are common on e36's would fit on the n52. Saw a thread on here recently that schrick may possibly have some n52 cams out that are placed under the n54 category and the numbers on the description match n52 and someone quoted their email to them with them saying the cams listed were for n52. Their site is really unorganized and poorly designed so we'll see what happens. If they do fit, then injectors with a tune and those cams is awesome
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      08-12-2014, 08:26 AM   #16
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I'm going to guess no. newer motors use short body injectors, also the size is probably smaller than the stock N52 injector anyway.

seriously, there's no reason to upgrade your N52 injectors without some serious mods that would require them (like a turbo or supercharger). I don't think you would need them even if you had a cam upgrade.
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      08-12-2014, 10:33 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hassmaschine View Post
it's actually 10.7:1 (don't know where I'd read 12.5:1). but yeah, maybe or maybe not enough to take advantage of something like E85. you'd need to be able to adjust the tune and you'd have to upgrade the entire fuel system.
thought the n52 was 10.7.1 and n51 10.1. ???
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      08-15-2014, 10:49 PM   #18
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Last time i talked about this. there was no enthusiasm.

Meth kits from snowperfromance or 335i water reservoir can be used as long as you make the trigger either on /off or maf based

next you need a tune or you will get just octane boost/cold air effect
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      08-18-2014, 11:48 PM   #19
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There are two reasons to inject a meth-water mixture - methanol will increase octane rating, however this isn't a particularly significant effect. The mixture, primarily due to the water, also has the effect of cooling the airflow into the cylinder. This is useful as it increases density of the air charge, decreases pressure, and prevents any hot spots from prematurely detonating the a/f charge causing knocking or worse.

In a naturally aspirated engine, none of these effects are particularly useful. You don't get pre-detonation because you're not running the fuel close to its detonation pressure. You don't get hotspots because you're not running a higher-than-design intake temperature or combustion temperature.

tl;dr meth/water injection lets you crank up the compression for the same fuel. But that's not a variable you control on an NA engine, so fuck it.
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      08-19-2014, 09:25 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colin_e90 View Post
Hmm I'm gonna look into if the mustang injectors that are common on e36's would fit on the n52. Saw a thread on here recently that schrick may possibly have some n52 cams out that are placed under the n54 category and the numbers on the description match n52 and someone quoted their email to them with them saying the cams listed were for n52. Their site is really unorganized and poorly designed so we'll see what happens. If they do fit, then injectors with a tune and those cams is awesome
Oh I would love if this was true about the cams! boy oh boy
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