E90Post
 


ECS BMW
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > NA Engine (non-turbo) / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications > N52 e85/meth ?



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      08-10-2014, 06:51 AM   #1
colin_e90
Second Lieutenant
16
Rep
226
Posts

Drives: 2006 AW 330i
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Maui, Hi

iTrader: (0)

N52 e85/meth ?

Has anyone attempted to get a tune for meth injection or e85 for the n52? Was wondering if any at least small gains are possible doing this? Have seen naturally aspirated m cars do it so thought n52 would have something but nothing showed up in the search
Appreciate 0
      08-10-2014, 05:31 PM   #2
mike-y
just another bmw douche bag
United_States
76
Rep
3,568
Posts

Drives: 1.9L of fury
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Los Angeles, CA

iTrader: (4)

you'd need a lot of compression to make use of e85. e85 is less efficient at making power than gasoline, but it has a very high octane value. Turbo cars compensate for this with the ability to run more boost, but with an NA car, you need to increase compression and timing to offset the loss in power.

So unless you are planning on rebuilding your motor, you are going to have a hard time making any more power than stock with e85.
Appreciate 0
      08-10-2014, 05:35 PM   #3
colin_e90
Second Lieutenant
16
Rep
226
Posts

Drives: 2006 AW 330i
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Maui, Hi

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike-y
you'd need a lot of compression to make use of e85. e85 is less efficient at making power than gasoline, but it has a very high octane value. Turbo cars compensate for this with the ability to run more boost, but with an NA car, you need to increase compression and timing to offset the loss in power.

So unless you are planning on rebuilding your motor, you are going to have a hard time making any more power than stock with e85.
So m cars are able to do this since they have tougher built engine internals that can withstand the change in compression?
Appreciate 0
      08-10-2014, 06:46 PM   #4
TheAxiom
Major General
TheAxiom's Avatar
732
Rep
5,120
Posts

Drives: E92 6 Speed
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Florida

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by colin_e90 View Post
So m cars are able to do this since they have tougher built engine internals that can withstand the change in compression?
It's not about the strength of the internals themselves, it's about how much ignition timing (spark) and compression you can run.
__________________
E92 Msport -
E90 ZSP -Gone
Appreciate 0
      08-11-2014, 12:50 AM   #5
MarkkyyMan
Captain
MarkkyyMan's Avatar
United_States
17
Rep
713
Posts

Drives: 2010 BMW 128i
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Indiana, U.S.

iTrader: (0)

Plus the E85 isn't the nicest on fuel systems.
Appreciate 0
      08-11-2014, 10:41 AM   #6
hassmaschine
Colonel
274
Rep
2,035
Posts

Drives: 2006 330i 6sp w/ sport package
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: earth

iTrader: (0)

aren't N52s 12.5:1 compression? that's pretty high for an N/A motor.
Appreciate 0
      08-11-2014, 11:12 AM   #7
TheAxiom
Major General
TheAxiom's Avatar
732
Rep
5,120
Posts

Drives: E92 6 Speed
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Florida

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hassmaschine View Post
aren't N52s 10.5:1 compression? that's pretty high for an N/A motor.
Fixed.
__________________
E92 Msport -
E90 ZSP -Gone
Appreciate 0
      08-11-2014, 03:44 PM   #8
hassmaschine
Colonel
274
Rep
2,035
Posts

Drives: 2006 330i 6sp w/ sport package
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: earth

iTrader: (0)

it's actually 10.7:1 (don't know where I'd read 12.5:1). but yeah, maybe or maybe not enough to take advantage of something like E85. you'd need to be able to adjust the tune and you'd have to upgrade the entire fuel system.
Appreciate 1
      08-11-2014, 03:46 PM   #9
colin_e90
Second Lieutenant
16
Rep
226
Posts

Drives: 2006 AW 330i
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Maui, Hi

iTrader: (0)

Yea I was checking in on e46fanatics and see how they were on this same topic and really only possible if you were able to upgrade the injectors and fuel pump but those things aren't available for the n52
Appreciate 0
      08-11-2014, 04:33 PM   #10
TheAxiom
Major General
TheAxiom's Avatar
732
Rep
5,120
Posts

Drives: E92 6 Speed
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Florida

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by colin_e90 View Post
Yea I was checking in on e46fanatics and see how they were on this same topic and really only possible if you were able to upgrade the injectors and fuel pump but those things aren't available for the n52
And not really worth the cost either.
__________________
E92 Msport -
E90 ZSP -Gone
Appreciate 0
      08-11-2014, 04:42 PM   #11
colin_e90
Second Lieutenant
16
Rep
226
Posts

Drives: 2006 AW 330i
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Maui, Hi

iTrader: (0)

Yea real gains come when your boosted
Appreciate 0
      08-11-2014, 05:26 PM   #12
hassmaschine
Colonel
274
Rep
2,035
Posts

Drives: 2006 330i 6sp w/ sport package
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: earth

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by colin_e90 View Post
Yea I was checking in on e46fanatics and see how they were on this same topic and really only possible if you were able to upgrade the injectors and fuel pump but those things aren't available for the n52
what do you mean? there's no reason you couldn't upgrade the injectors and fuel pump. there's nothing that special about the N52, it's not DI and doesn't have a HPFP. not that I believe it would be worth the cost.
Appreciate 0
      08-11-2014, 05:32 PM   #13
colin_e90
Second Lieutenant
16
Rep
226
Posts

Drives: 2006 AW 330i
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Maui, Hi

iTrader: (0)

I haven't seen anyone talk about putting bigger injectors in their n52, been on some big sites like **********s and turner and no bigger injectors available for the n52. I know bigger injectors and fuel pump is a good decent mod. Had mustang injectors in my old e36 and that was really pleasant
Appreciate 0
      08-12-2014, 08:28 AM   #14
hassmaschine
Colonel
274
Rep
2,035
Posts

Drives: 2006 330i 6sp w/ sport package
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: earth

iTrader: (0)

injectors are pretty standard parts, you'd just need to find one with the same body size that flowed more. You probably haven't seen anyone do it because there's no benefit without a seriously modified motor. there's no point in upgrading the injectors by themselves, plus it wouldn't work without retuning the computer anyway.

I don't know how big the N52 injectors are but BMW typically sizes them with lots of headroom available that I doubt anyone is pushing a relatively stock N52 past.
Appreciate 0
      08-12-2014, 08:39 AM   #15
colin_e90
Second Lieutenant
16
Rep
226
Posts

Drives: 2006 AW 330i
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Maui, Hi

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hassmaschine
injectors are pretty standard parts, you'd just need to find one with the same body size that flowed more. You probably haven't seen anyone do it because there's no benefit without a seriously modified motor. there's no point in upgrading the injectors by themselves, plus it wouldn't work without retuning the computer anyway.
Hmm I'm gonna look into if the mustang injectors that are common on e36's would fit on the n52. Saw a thread on here recently that schrick may possibly have some n52 cams out that are placed under the n54 category and the numbers on the description match n52 and someone quoted their email to them with them saying the cams listed were for n52. Their site is really unorganized and poorly designed so we'll see what happens. If they do fit, then injectors with a tune and those cams is awesome
Appreciate 0
      08-12-2014, 09:26 AM   #16
hassmaschine
Colonel
274
Rep
2,035
Posts

Drives: 2006 330i 6sp w/ sport package
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: earth

iTrader: (0)

I'm going to guess no. newer motors use short body injectors, also the size is probably smaller than the stock N52 injector anyway.

seriously, there's no reason to upgrade your N52 injectors without some serious mods that would require them (like a turbo or supercharger). I don't think you would need them even if you had a cam upgrade.
Appreciate 0
      08-12-2014, 11:33 AM   #17
Rival
Captain
19
Rep
600
Posts

Drives: 95 z28
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: shytown

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hassmaschine View Post
it's actually 10.7:1 (don't know where I'd read 12.5:1). but yeah, maybe or maybe not enough to take advantage of something like E85. you'd need to be able to adjust the tune and you'd have to upgrade the entire fuel system.
thought the n52 was 10.7.1 and n51 10.1. ???
__________________
2008 328i 6spd
1995 Z28 6spd - 377rwhp rip
Appreciate 0
      08-15-2014, 11:49 PM   #18
andrey_gta
Brigadier General
andrey_gta's Avatar
Canada
129
Rep
3,974
Posts

Drives: 130i coupé ;)
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Bimmerpost

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2008 BMW 128i  [0.00]
Last time i talked about this. there was no enthusiasm.

Meth kits from snowperfromance or 335i water reservoir can be used as long as you make the trigger either on /off or maf based

next you need a tune or you will get just octane boost/cold air effect
__________________
128i Sport 6MT converted to Euro 130i spec, tuned by evolve ~220 whp 207 wtq(ft-lb) SAE
In-progress: //M front arm, M3 rack, e36M lip Wishlist: Coils, n55 eng mnt, headers, LSD, e60 finn diff


"The 1-series is the last car that BMW engineered before the Germans, as a car-making culture, fell out of love with driving." - R&T 2013 135is
Appreciate 0
      08-19-2014, 12:48 AM   #19
alexwhittemore
Lieutenant Colonel
47
Rep
1,847
Posts

Drives: 2009 Crimson 328i
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (0)

There are two reasons to inject a meth-water mixture - methanol will increase octane rating, however this isn't a particularly significant effect. The mixture, primarily due to the water, also has the effect of cooling the airflow into the cylinder. This is useful as it increases density of the air charge, decreases pressure, and prevents any hot spots from prematurely detonating the a/f charge causing knocking or worse.

In a naturally aspirated engine, none of these effects are particularly useful. You don't get pre-detonation because you're not running the fuel close to its detonation pressure. You don't get hotspots because you're not running a higher-than-design intake temperature or combustion temperature.

tl;dr meth/water injection lets you crank up the compression for the same fuel. But that's not a variable you control on an NA engine, so fuck it.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      08-19-2014, 10:25 AM   #20
chris82
Colonel
chris82's Avatar
United_States
210
Rep
2,900
Posts

Drives: around town (Philadelphia)
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: a black coupe

iTrader: (5)

Garage List
2008 BMW 128i  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by colin_e90 View Post
Hmm I'm gonna look into if the mustang injectors that are common on e36's would fit on the n52. Saw a thread on here recently that schrick may possibly have some n52 cams out that are placed under the n54 category and the numbers on the description match n52 and someone quoted their email to them with them saying the cams listed were for n52. Their site is really unorganized and poorly designed so we'll see what happens. If they do fit, then injectors with a tune and those cams is awesome
Oh I would love if this was true about the cams! boy oh boy
__________________
N51 @ 221whp/207wtq (Mustang Dyno) | AA tune | Supersprint Section 2 | BMW PE | Charcoal delete | M3 RSFB | Apex Aero 7 w/Michelin Pilot Supersports | Apex 75mm Stud Kit
Appreciate 0
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:13 AM.




e90post
e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST