E90Post
 


ECS BMW
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > FrankenTurbo



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      02-04-2016, 05:06 AM   #1
doug@frankenturbo
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor
United_States
135
Rep
90
Posts


Drives: the world mad with turbo-osity
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Portland, OR

iTrader: (0)

FrankenTurbo

I’d like to introduce myself. I’m Doug Harper. And I run a company called FrankenTurbo. For the last few years we’ve had some success offering hybrid turbochargers to the Audi/VW market. Our products can be found on 1.8T four cylinders as well as the more recent 2.0T direct-port injection engines. Plus we have a number of our products running around on V6 2.7T twin—turbo cars. The Audi S4. That market has been key to our company’s success.

For some time now, our dealers have been asking, “when will you have a product for us to sell into the N54 engines?” Well, we listened to those requests and started researching. And what we found is a market with huge potential for the kind of turbos we make. Yes, there are quite a few strong options available already. I recognize that. But none of them quite reach the Goldilocks level of performance and value that we represent. So we made the commitment to invest in the research and development necessary to offer a successful turbo. And we named that turbo the F23Bi.

Our F23Bi will be powerful. It will be reliable. It will be affordable. But most importantly, it will be fun. In other words it will have all the attributes that have led to thousands of cars running our turbos worldwide.

While we move forward on the development of product, I am creating this thread to show some insight into my thought process on performance modification for this platform. I have a lot of ideas. But I also have quite a few questions. This is a wholly new motor for me and my company, and I’m not going to pretend omniscience. In fact, the process of learning is what drives me forward in my livelihood. I love encountering something I didn’t know. I expect that to happen frequently during this process.

Now, rather than talk about what we’ve “got up our sleeves”, I’m firstly going to start right at the beginning: a bone stock car. The N54 came from the factory with a respectable 300hp rating. But currently we've got FrankenTurbos that can deliver more than that level with the smaller – and older -- VW 1.8T. On the newer 2.0L engines, ones which share direct-injection with this 3.0L, we can reliably get 400hp. So it looks to me this engine comes from the factory as a serious underachiever.

To find out why, we got our hands on a gently-driven 335i. We threw in a JB4 harness/controller and opened our Windows laptop to datalog it. Here’s what we found:



EIGHT lousy PSI? It’s a wonder this engine can produce that much power on such limp-wristed boost! And so even at 300hp, this car, with its leggy 3.08 final drive ratio, feels really slow. Third gear is a real test of intestinal fortitude: will this car EVER reach 7000rpms? Based on a calculation of time to speed from 4200 to 6500, it’s pretty darned “unhurried”.



So enough of stock performance. We’ve got the baseline. Time to move on to the upped power levels of the JB4 mapping system. As virtually all of you probably know, the JB4 piggyback controller offers several flavors of performance. With the click of the mouse (or flick of the driver-column control stalk) you can raise power modestly or aggressively. The choice depends on your driving style and the car’s modifications. The first tier up from stock is named Map1. Burger Motorsports’ documentation says this file is suitable for just about any hardware, provided quality Premium gas. We’re running 92oct here in Oregon, so I think that’s covered. Let’s have a look at the change in boost behavior:



Well, alright. At least we’re now getting boost levels in the double-digits. No more safe-for-granny. How does this translate to our time-to-speed values?



More than two seconds faster. That’s impressive. That’s the kind of performance improvement I can get behind! For a more graphic depiction, have a look at the difference in a… well… a graph.



Off to a good start, I immediately decided to be greedy and load the JB4 “Map2” onto the controller. Technically, this mapping is for modified cars. With catless downpipes, upgraded intercoolers and such. But this car feels eager and the friendly February ambient temps led me to take a shot.

Here is the boost profile on map2, compared to map1.



Not so very different. Not really the kind of change which screams: BEWARE. And ignition advance is right at the same level, although the ignition averages are showing a hint of knock lurking around. Here is a look at those two values graphed for Map1 and Map2.



Here, with timing advance and the way it gets reported on these ECUs – uh, DMEs – I’ve arrived a little outside of what I’m used to in the VW/Audi engines. Timing advance and correction factors aren’t directly reported on these cars. Instead we have a value called “Average Ignition Retard”, which is a telltale, an indicator of how well the engine is accepting the software mapping. But there is no data stream for actual timing pull events. So to deduce any problems a tuner has to study the ignition advance curve for abrupt drops in values. If the data show quick irregularities, those are likely instances of engine knock.

Overall, our stock-hardware car seems up to the task of Map2. The only sign of weakness is with intake temperatures. The stock intercooler is showing some strain, even at the 45-50˚ ambients present during these logging sessions.



So as long as the weather cooperates, it looks as though Map2 is working on the car. In fact, it’s now running 4200-6500 in less than four seconds.



And if that’s the case, where to start modding? Is there more boost to be had with upgrades? Based on the data for requests/versus actuals it kind of doesn’t look like it.



And the stock turbos are meeting requests quite easily. Boost duty values, based on a scale of 0-100%, are without a doubt modest.



So if the turbos are unstressed by Map2 and the other data points show no signs of trouble, how do we get more from the engine? We’re already venturing into mapping levels intended for modded cars, but the stock hardware seems to be holding up fine. The JB4 map menu has files for water meth and race gas. Those are too much for a stock setup and aren’t applicable. But there IS Map5, which appears to be the most aggressive, yet sophisticated. Here is a quote from Burger Motorsport’s documentation:
Map 5: Autotuning map. Boost ranges between 12-17psi based on your cars octane, conditions, and modifications. Fully E85 compatible. If using E85 we suggest around 30% to start. Refer to the E85 FAQ for addl info. Resets to 93 octane level adaptions when selected and adjusts itself up or down from there.
Will that map do us better? If I’m interpreting things correctly, the IGN Avg values we’re seeing in Map2 aren’t currently impacting the DME’s behavior. They’re there, but having no influence. But if we switch to Map5 will things change? Will the actual values be impacted? And given the “adaptive” boost profile of Map5, what will we see versus the “dumb” Maps 1 & 2?

My rough understanding of the JB4 system is that it masks certain parameters to fool the engine into thinking the work being done – engine load – is a value pre-determined by the piggyback. And if you look at the load values for Map1 and Map 2 next to one another, that appears to the be the case.



So with these two entry-level maps, the DME calculates no difference in load, even while the performance is demonstrably unalike. But what about Map5? With the added awareness that it apparently has, how will things change?

That’s the first question I have for this thread. And in posing it I will make this disclaimer: I’m not a tuner. I’m a turbocharger manufacturer. So while I take an interest in how electronic engine management impacts my hardware, I don’t claim expertise in that discipline. Given past experience, I'll probably to have to repeat that caveat early and often. But I’ve gotten it out there now, and in that framework, hope to earn the community’s involvement in this public work-in-progress.

Thanks,

Doug Harper
FrankenTurbo
Appreciate 3
      02-04-2016, 05:32 AM   #2
Brule
Lieutenant Colonel
Australia
117
Rep
1,530
Posts

Drives: 2007 335i e92 6sp man
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Darwin

iTrader: (0)

To start playing with this car you need:

Intercooler
Downpipes
Inlets
Chargepipe
Backend flash if using jb4
Steve az fuel it products

Arguably you are wasting time if your not using e85

The people that know how to tune are:

Terry jb4 owner "master tuner"
Dzenno at ptf Cobb or mhd
Wedge/buraq flash only

Max psi on stockers is about 25 mid down 22ish
Some upgraded twins are capable of 40 but no one is really going much over 25 at the moment. Some tuners are testing 30+psi

Last edited by Brule; 02-04-2016 at 05:39 AM.
Appreciate 0
      02-04-2016, 06:00 AM   #3
berns
Private
14
Rep
55
Posts

Drives: '07 E90 335i
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Venice, CA

iTrader: (0)

Some nice data, but I've got to be honest, I came here expecting to see a new turbo offering and found a thread showing off the first and most basic mod most people put on their N54s/55s.

While digging into how this car responds to hardware, or how the DME operates, advancements are constantly being made and new information and bins being uncovered. From here to N54tech to BB, it's being done by dedicated tuners, something you admit you aren't, and that's ok!

If your goal is to come to the market with something different, possibly more affordable, and reliable (this is a really big one, there are few hybrids that instill confidence, and fewer that instill confidence from customer service, I won't name names), then you should have all the information available to you, and tuners to collaborate with of your choice, to start testing some turbos. While I think it's a cool approach to get the community interested in something and raise some brand awareness, I don't think this is the ticket for you.

This is a community so oversaturated with parts and competition that you've got to show up with results and impress. Sure, competition and saturation lead to advancement, that's all good, but so many threads start with "we're building this," then hype is built slowly and organically and either everyone ends up a) waiting way longer than expected, b) disappointed and/or lacking hard data c) frustrated at the inevitable pissing match between vendors, d) happy paying customers, obviously, we all hope for d.

Take your years of expertise, build a fine set of turbos that come with upgraded inlets and outlets, prove their reliability, prove their performance with data, dynojet graphs, quarter mile times and in-car videos, offer a kickass warranty and show everyone something cool in a way maybe we haven't seen before.

Hope you don't take any of this the wrong way, and perhaps I don't speak for the masses, but this is what I've gathered in my few years with this car, observing the community, as well as what I'm interested in seeing for my own car.

Best of luck.
__________________
'07 E90 335i
JB4 + MHD // LSD // M3 everything // KW
Appreciate 2
      02-04-2016, 06:49 AM   #4
MHD Tuning
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor
MHD Tuning's Avatar
Germany
475
Rep
767
Posts


Drives: 2007 335i ## 2017 M2
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Berlin - Germany

iTrader: (0)

The load you see in the JB4 graphs is the "actual load" calculated by the DME, not by the jb4. Because the DME doesn't know the real boost applied by the JB4, it is basically still calculating everything with stock parameters, stock boost, stock load, stock timing etc.

The AVG ign is used only in map 5 (afaik) and will reduce the jb4 boost target based on knock activity. This is map 5 autotune: the more knock, the less boost. Map 5 may give better results, only if you use high octane fuel because the timing curve is stock (and tuned for 9psi, not 14-17).

Said differently: the jb4 is a boost controller, it cannot control timing, load, vanos etc. This is all done by the DME which you be properly tuned.
__________________
email us! mhd.tuning@gmail.com
Get MHD Flasher N54 here: MHD N54 on Play store
Get MHD N55 E-Series here: MHD N55 on Play store
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/MHDtuning/
Appreciate 2
      02-04-2016, 08:15 AM   #5
stanlalee
Major
167
Rep
1,148
Posts

Drives: 07' E92 335i manual
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Newport News, Va

iTrader: (0)

You can stop with the baby step data on what a stock turbo car does (in any form: stock, tuned, FBO, ethanol etc). This is a 10 year old platform, you aren't going to show us anything we dont know on a stock car. We have stock turbo cars and data from stock all the way uo to 500whp. Without thinking hard I can name four different hybrid turbo manufacturers all with multiple variants, on the market and with lots of live customers and data from 500-700whp. No disrespect but you can go straight to your product description, performance goals, testing/capabilities etc. A shop posted a year or two ago claiming to be in the initial phase of planning for testing the Frankenturbo on this platform and disappeared.

BTW I am an ex FSI Frankenturbo customer so I'm not just giving you a hard time.


But you are late to the game and this platform is simply WAY beyond stock turbo data (and 100 page threads from introduction to market). I can assume it will be in the "F23" family in terms of sizing but seriously you are just going to bore us to death until you have a working sample of a turbo on your bench ready to be bolted on a car and that is a good starting point vs starting with what a stock N54 thats been out and tuned since late 2006 does. Thats long been done for you/us already.

Last edited by stanlalee; 02-04-2016 at 08:25 AM.
Appreciate 6
      02-04-2016, 09:51 AM   #6
Grand_hustle17
Major
123
Rep
1,139
Posts

Drives: E90 335i
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Maryland

iTrader: (0)

Whats the product and price and power goals. Depending on all that im willing to test it out for you. I think a lot of people would be curious with the mods i have
VSRF inlets
BMS Downpipes
JB4/MHD backend Trebilia tune
AR Chargepipe w/tial BOV
6" FMIC
And have access to E85.
Also upon turbo install i will be using fuel it Throttle body injection kit and N20 tmap sensor to run more boost.

With that said my goals are 550rwhp and if you believe you have a product that can safely deliver that while retaining even stock inlets and you are willing to stand by that im down for some testing, i am already in the market to upgrade turbos and i am also a 6mt. I also already have a well recommended tuner from the forums besides BURAQ who seems to be A1 as well. But depending on pricing and all i am willing to try out these upgrades. Car has 92k miles and non daily driven

One last thing. Please just try to make sure these things dont rattle lol. I guess get with a few vendors as well

Last edited by Grand_hustle17; 02-04-2016 at 10:05 AM.
Appreciate 0
      02-04-2016, 02:16 PM   #7
Tim603
Lieutenant Colonel
Tim603's Avatar
United_States
149
Rep
1,950
Posts

Drives: 2007 335i E90
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: North Canton, OH

iTrader: (8)

Garage List
2007 335i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanlalee View Post
You can stop with the baby step data on what a stock turbo car does (in any form: stock, tuned, FBO, ethanol etc). This is a 10 year old platform, you aren't going to show us anything we dont know on a stock car. We have stock turbo cars and data from stock all the way uo to 500whp. Without thinking hard I can name four different hybrid turbo manufacturers all with multiple variants, on the market and with lots of live customers and data from 500-700whp. No disrespect but you can go straight to your product description, performance goals, testing/capabilities etc. A shop posted a year or two ago claiming to be in the initial phase of planning for testing the Frankenturbo on this platform and disappeared.

BTW I am an ex FSI Frankenturbo customer so I'm not just giving you a hard time.

But you are late to the game and this platform is simply WAY beyond stock turbo data (and 100 page threads from introduction to market). I can assume it will be in the "F23" family in terms of sizing but seriously you are just going to bore us to death until you have a working sample of a turbo on your bench ready to be bolted on a car and that is a good starting point vs starting with what a stock N54 thats been out and tuned since late 2006 does. Thats long been done for you/us already.
Speak for yourself man, I actually appreciate the hard data as there is so much junk out there sometimes its hard to get clean post with solid information. There are A LOT of new people on this platform and as the cars get less expensive there will even more. That being said, it is not a bad thing to have informational posts about our engine and its capabilities, not to mention one as clearly written and with great images like this one.

I look forward to seeing your products Doug, I have heard great things about your company on the 2.7T side of things and hopefully you can make something reliable as that is what we all crave at the moment. Thanks for the info!
__________________
Appreciate 7
      02-04-2016, 02:26 PM   #8
ferocity02
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
210
Rep
1,744
Posts

Drives: 2007 E90 335i
Join Date: May 2014
Location: USA

iTrader: (8)

I understand the desire to do this kind of testing, but this is old news that most of us are familiar with. If you want to make a winning product for this platform, then design a set of turbos (either from scratch or starting with OEMs) that is dead nuts reliable at a good price.

A set of new OEM turbos could run $2000+. There are OEM-rebuilt or Stage 1 turbos that are cheaper, but come from companies who's turbo's are notorious for burning oil, or are operated by assholes with absolutely zero engineering background.

If you can offer a product that fills this gap (with results to prove it) it would be a no brainer.

Just my 2 cents.
__________________
2007 E90 335i Pre-LCI
Appreciate 3
      02-04-2016, 03:31 PM   #9
fr3nch2
Private First Class
19
Rep
107
Posts

Drives: E90
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Searching...

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim603 View Post
Speak for yourself man, I actually appreciate the hard data as there is so much junk out there sometimes its hard to get clean post with solid information. There are A LOT of new people on this platform and as the cars get less expensive there will even more. That being said, it is not a bad thing to have informational posts about our engine and its capabilities, not to mention one as clearly written and with great images like this one.

I look forward to seeing your products Doug, I have heard great things about your company on the 2.7T side of things and hopefully you can make something reliable as that is what we all crave at the moment. Thanks for the info!
I agree with you Tim. More information is never a bad thing. I've been on this forum for awhile, and sometimes I'm still amazed at this community.

I think we've been spoiled with the aftermarket on this car. So many products and a lot of competition that has driven prices down making it fairly easy to make big power numbers.

Everyone wants results and wants it now. I don't see any issue with a vendor coming into the community and letting us help influence the direction.

I can honestly say I'm excited to see what comes of this. If nothing else it should be another option for those looking to upgrade that should be different than some of the others on the market.
__________________
My car has stuff on it
Appreciate 5
      02-04-2016, 03:44 PM   #10
bigdnno98
Lieutenant Colonel
bigdnno98's Avatar
United_States
122
Rep
1,806
Posts

Drives: 335is DCT
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Clarksville, TN

iTrader: (8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by fr3nch2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim603 View Post
Speak for yourself man, I actually appreciate the hard data as there is so much junk out there sometimes its hard to get clean post with solid information. There are A LOT of new people on this platform and as the cars get less expensive there will even more. That being said, it is not a bad thing to have informational posts about our engine and its capabilities, not to mention one as clearly written and with great images like this one.

I look forward to seeing your products Doug, I have heard great things about your company on the 2.7T side of things and hopefully you can make something reliable as that is what we all crave at the moment. Thanks for the info!
I agree with you Tim. More information is never a bad thing. I've been on this forum for awhile, and sometimes I'm still amazed at this community.

I think we've been spoiled with the aftermarket on this car. So many products and a lot of competition that has driven prices down making it fairly easy to make big power numbers.

Everyone wants results and wants it now. I don't see any issue with a vendor coming into the community and letting us help influence the direction.

I can honestly say I'm excited to see what comes of this. If nothing else it should be another option for those looking to upgrade that should be different than some of the others on the market.
Exactly. I've been around since Rbs were the only upgraded turbo option and people bought them solely because they were the only thing available. There's a lot to be said for someone to use a lot of useful data to design a product that's going to work, not just copy the work of those that have come before.
__________________
Appreciate 2
      02-04-2016, 04:35 PM   #11
mike@x-ph.com
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor
mike@x-ph.com's Avatar
United_States
3401
Rep
55,348
Posts


Drives: 2007 e92 335i / 2013 F30 328
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Las Vegas

iTrader: (14)

Tough crowd today

@[doug@frankenturbo](contact:260816) I would like to welcome you to the BMW community and wish you good luck. As you can see, we are not easily impressed

Doing stock reading and then JB4 is a really good start.
Now lets see how the car would do FBO + inlets + E85 + your turbos
Appreciate 3
      02-04-2016, 04:40 PM   #12
BKBMW335I
Lieutenant
42
Rep
518
Posts

Drives: '11 E93 335I
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Cartelville, Texas

iTrader: (0)

N54 guys get all the best stuff first
__________________
If you can't have the car you luv, luv the car you have!
Mods: Cobb AP3, VRSF 3" Chargepipe, Megan 4" Downpipes, VSRF 5" Stepped Intercooler, GFB Diverter, Michelin Pilot Super Sport Tires, BMS Sport Oil Cooler Valve, 20% Tints
Appreciate 0
      02-04-2016, 05:06 PM   #13
///Mposter
Macgyver
///Mposter's Avatar
United_States
80
Rep
839
Posts

Drives: 2007 e92 335i
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Greensboring

iTrader: (0)

Welcome Doug ,

In your intro you mentioned "performance and value". I wanted touch on a few things. As you mentioned there are other options available. In stock form the OEMs can provide well over 400 WHP with all the mods mentioned above in other posts known as FullBoltOn (FBO), which now includes inlets and outlets reaching 500 WHP (with E85).
So touching on price , the TD03 OEMs go for approximately (on special) $595 each on tischerbmw. So for $1200 we OEM quality.
Then VTTO offers TD03 OEM rebuilds with the wastegate fix and new actuators for $999.
Then there were TD04H options between $2400-$3500.
Now we are at TD04HL around $3500+.
Where are you trying to come in at? Are you trying offer a stock frame rebuild or are you offering a new manifold with new turbo options?
The reason I ask is because #1 wastegate rattle was out of hand, and #2 Most people who had to upgrade to RB or VTTO figured if they were spending X amount why not if it is plug and play. We were in warranty and wanted to look stock with all connections. Now that the platform has passed the warranty phase, and these cars can be picked up for $10,000 dollars , I have noticed that no one really cares now if the oil lines are custom or inlets or outlets do not look OEM.
We now fall into "performance and value."
So are you planning on going all out in the TD04HL form with a new exhaust manifold , inlets and outlets , down pipes, in the $2500 range? I assume downpipes because I think you would try to modify your in stock products to fit our cars.

Lastly I wanted to say thank you for sharing where you are currently learning.
Appreciate 1
      02-04-2016, 05:25 PM   #14
Harambe
Tire Hardo
Harambe's Avatar
United_States
399
Rep
2,279
Posts

Drives: 335xi 6MT
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Milwaukee, WI

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///Mposter View Post
Welcome Doug ,

In your intro you mentioned "performance and value". I wanted touch on a few things. As you mentioned there are other options available. In stock form the OEMs can provide well over 400 WHP with all the mods mentioned above in other posts known as FullBoltOn (FBO), which now includes inlets and outlets reaching 500 WHP (with E85).
So touching on price , the TD03 OEMs go for approximately (on special) $595 each on tischerbmw. So for $1200 we OEM quality.
Then VTTO offers TD03 OEM rebuilds with the wastegate fix and new actuators for $999.
Then there were TD04H options between $2400-$3500.
Now we are at TD04HL around $3500+.
Where are you trying to come in at? Are you trying offer a stock frame rebuild or are you offering a new manifold with new turbo options?
The reason I ask is because #1 wastegate rattle was out of hand, and #2 Most people who had to upgrade to RB or VTTO figured if they were spending X amount why not if it is plug and play. We were in warranty and wanted to look stock with all connections. Now that the platform has passed the warranty phase, and these cars can be picked up for $10,000 dollars , I have noticed that no one really cares now if the oil lines are custom or inlets or outlets do not look OEM.
We now fall into "performance and value."
So are you planning on going all out in the TD04HL form with a new exhaust manifold , inlets and outlets , down pipes, in the $2500 range? I assume downpipes because I think you would try to modify your in stock products to fit our cars.

Lastly I wanted to say thank you for sharing where you are currently learning.
Nobody is reaching 500whp on stock turbos on a tune they can actually drive everyday that won't blow the turbos in 1k miles. 460whp is really the upper limit for a daily map.
Appreciate 0
      02-04-2016, 05:27 PM   #15
///Mposter
Macgyver
///Mposter's Avatar
United_States
80
Rep
839
Posts

Drives: 2007 e92 335i
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Greensboring

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heel Toe
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///Mposter View Post
Welcome Doug ,

In your intro you mentioned "performance and value". I wanted touch on a few things. As you mentioned there are other options available. In stock form the OEMs can provide well over 400 WHP with all the mods mentioned above in other posts known as FullBoltOn (FBO), which now includes inlets and outlets reaching 500 WHP (with E85).
So touching on price , the TD03 OEMs go for approximately (on special) $595 each on tischerbmw. So for $1200 we OEM quality.
Then VTTO offers TD03 OEM rebuilds with the wastegate fix and new actuators for $999.
Then there were TD04H options between $2400-$3500.
Now we are at TD04HL around $3500+.
Where are you trying to come in at? Are you trying offer a stock frame rebuild or are you offering a new manifold with new turbo options?
The reason I ask is because #1 wastegate rattle was out of hand, and #2 Most people who had to upgrade to RB or VTTO figured if they were spending X amount why not if it is plug and play. We were in warranty and wanted to look stock with all connections. Now that the platform has passed the warranty phase, and these cars can be picked up for $10,000 dollars , I have noticed that no one really cares now if the oil lines are custom or inlets or outlets do not look OEM.
We now fall into "performance and value."
So are you planning on going all out in the TD04HL form with a new exhaust manifold , inlets and outlets , down pipes, in the $2500 range? I assume downpipes because I think you would try to modify your in stock products to fit our cars.

Lastly I wanted to say thank you for sharing where you are currently learning.
Nobody is reaching 500whp on stock turbos on a tune they can actually drive everyday that won't blow the turbos in 1k miles. 460whp is really the upper limit for a daily map.
I agree with you. The record was just that , a record. No way anyone should do that on stock frames on TD03s and expect longevity.
Appreciate 0
      02-04-2016, 05:47 PM   #16
zmon1300
First Lieutenant
zmon1300's Avatar
United_States
29
Rep
300
Posts

Drives: 2010 335i Xdrive Coupe
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Chicago

iTrader: (0)

@WedgePerformance
__________________
Pure Stage 2, PR Inlets, MHD, Kw V3, ARC-8, DTM Ring Kit
Appreciate 0
      02-04-2016, 06:17 PM   #17
Lshaw
Lieutenant Colonel
Lshaw's Avatar
United_States
86
Rep
1,750
Posts

Drives: 09 335i 6mt
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: NYC/Pittsburgh

iTrader: (21)

From an engineering standpoint, respect to Doug from starting from bottom and learning about this platform correctly. Who cares if this forum is saturated with information on this topic. You cant just read these forums and suddenly understand the dynamics of this engine...HANDS on R&D is what is necessary and very crucial for building a turbo.
__________________
07 335xi- (2007-2010)
08 Legacy Spec B Fully Built (08-)
09 335i (2010-)
15 X5 xdrive 35i (2015-)
17 Forester XT
Appreciate 2
      02-04-2016, 07:50 PM   #18
stanlalee
Major
167
Rep
1,148
Posts

Drives: 07' E92 335i manual
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Newport News, Va

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim603 View Post
Speak for yourself man, I actually appreciate the hard data as there is so much junk out there sometimes its hard to get clean post with solid information. There are A LOT of new people on this platform and as the cars get less expensive there will even more. That being said, it is not a bad thing to have informational posts about our engine and its capabilities, not to mention one as clearly written and with great images like this one.

I look forward to seeing your products Doug, I have heard great things about your company on the 2.7T side of things and hopefully you can make something reliable as that is what we all crave at the moment. Thanks for the info!
Sorry but I don't want to hear what a stock car and jb4 car does on the way to offering new turbos. It's common knowledge. Sure he'll need a baseline. In other breaking news beyond that we can make power using ethanol blends and M3 control arms bolt right up. I'd like info on something I don't know about: the turbo other than the name for it. I'm crazy like that
Appreciate 0
      02-04-2016, 08:39 PM   #19
Nitrousbird
Banned
293
Rep
1,606
Posts

Drives: '07 E92 335i 6MT
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Powell, OH

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanlalee View Post
You can stop with the baby step data on what a stock turbo car does (in any form: stock, tuned, FBO, ethanol etc). This is a 10 year old platform, you aren't going to show us anything we dont know on a stock car. We have stock turbo cars and data from stock all the way uo to 500whp. Without thinking hard I can name four different hybrid turbo manufacturers all with multiple variants, on the market and with lots of live customers and data from 500-700whp. No disrespect but you can go straight to your product description, performance goals, testing/capabilities etc. A shop posted a year or two ago claiming to be in the initial phase of planning for testing the Frankenturbo on this platform and disappeared.
Well said, what a freaking thread disappointment.

We see the very basics of a the JB4 user (not even a MAP 5 test).

Is this supposed turbo being developed (is it actually being developed?) just going to be ANOTHER stock frame hybrid setup that can't be trusted to last more than 20k miles or another overpriced single setup?
Appreciate 0
      02-04-2016, 10:36 PM   #20
MM Performance
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor
MM Performance's Avatar
513
Rep
1,152
Posts


Drives: BMW 335i Cp TiAg 6AT
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Houston, Tx

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heel Toe
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///Mposter View Post
Welcome Doug ,

In your intro you mentioned "performance and value". I wanted touch on a few things. As you mentioned there are other options available. In stock form the OEMs can provide well over 400 WHP with all the mods mentioned above in other posts known as FullBoltOn (FBO), which now includes inlets and outlets reaching 500 WHP (with E85).
So touching on price , the TD03 OEMs go for approximately (on special) $595 each on tischerbmw. So for $1200 we OEM quality.
Then VTTO offers TD03 OEM rebuilds with the wastegate fix and new actuators for $999.
Then there were TD04H options between $2400-$3500.
Now we are at TD04HL around $3500+.
Where are you trying to come in at? Are you trying offer a stock frame rebuild or are you offering a new manifold with new turbo options?
The reason I ask is because #1 wastegate rattle was out of hand, and #2 Most people who had to upgrade to RB or VTTO figured if they were spending X amount why not if it is plug and play. We were in warranty and wanted to look stock with all connections. Now that the platform has passed the warranty phase, and these cars can be picked up for $10,000 dollars , I have noticed that no one really cares now if the oil lines are custom or inlets or outlets do not look OEM.
We now fall into "performance and value."
So are you planning on going all out in the TD04HL form with a new exhaust manifold , inlets and outlets , down pipes, in the $2500 range? I assume downpipes because I think you would try to modify your in stock products to fit our cars.

Lastly I wanted to say thank you for sharing where you are currently learning.
Nobody is reaching 500whp on stock turbos on a tune they can actually drive everyday that won't blow the turbos in 1k miles. 460whp is really the upper limit for a daily map.
I daily drove it for a long time with 0 issues at 500whp 25psi taper to 22psi. Also a 335is making the same boost and just shy of 500whp set the stock turbo n54 quarter Mile record at 11.01 recently and he was daily driving that tune/boost as well with 0 issues and still daily driving it, logs look great same as my did. Also I just talked to someone in Canada buying my outlets on stock turbos that is making more than 480whp with a little less boost 24psi taper to 21 and daily driving it with no problems and he's on 93+meth and logs look great.
With high flow inlets, FBO, and straight e85 and a good tune pushing the turbos, 500whp can be had and daily driven.
Appreciate 1
      02-05-2016, 12:58 AM   #21
Grand_hustle17
Major
123
Rep
1,139
Posts

Drives: E90 335i
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Maryland

iTrader: (0)

^^^^
Appreciate 0
      02-05-2016, 03:31 AM   #22
doug@frankenturbo
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor
United_States
135
Rep
90
Posts


Drives: the world mad with turbo-osity
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Portland, OR

iTrader: (0)

delving further into timing advance

Out of the box, the JB4 logger is saddled with BMW's idiosyncratic approach to recording timing advance. From what I can tell, the standard OBD data point is solely for cylinder #1. I'm guessing this is just for diagnostic simplification but it leaves a little to be desired when tuning. Luckily I happened across this thread by BMS which documents their workaround.

After having coded the "Juicebox" PC interface, voila! Active reporting across all cylinders. With this in hand, I let the engine sit running at idle until things under the hood were nice and toasty, then did a wide open throttle Map2 pull. Here's the damage:



Activating full timing advance monitoring is simply a matter of coding in the right value on the "User Adjustments" tab, seen here.



Burger's documentation indicates a pretty decent utility for this adjustments field. Depending on the value entered, the controller can record either net timing advance or the timing corrections factor. If that's the case, the ability to monitor timing pull by cylinder is a big bonus for this tuning product.

dh





Appreciate 5
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:47 PM.




e90post
e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST