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      12-05-2012, 06:56 AM   #23
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You get (close to) true IB only if you open the trunk!
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      12-05-2012, 07:01 AM   #24
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Makkan, looking forward to seeing your install. Are these going in the rear deck?
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      12-05-2012, 07:39 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69
Makkan, looking forward to seeing your install. Are these going in the rear deck?
Kaigoss
Thanks buddy. I will try to fit 12w7 on the rear deck. I had issues to fit alpine 10 inch sub due to its depth.
W7 is deeper and 12 inch so I have no clue how I will fit it.
But I have no other choice than to fit it there.
Will update the thread once it is fitted.
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      12-05-2012, 12:36 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makkan00 View Post
Kaigoss
Thanks buddy. I will try to fit 12w7 on the rear deck. I had issues to fit alpine 10 inch sub due to its depth.
W7 is deeper and 12 inch so I have no clue how I will fit it.
But I have no other choice other than to fit it there.
Will update the thread once it is fitted.
Why again can't you go through the ski-hole? Check the other thread, I updated it. A single 12" Infinity gets crazy loud, I can't imagine what a single 12W7 (or 13W7) can do...........
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      12-05-2012, 07:45 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
Why again can't you go through the ski-hole? Check the other thread, I updated it. A single 12" Infinity gets crazy loud, I can't imagine what a single 12W7 (or 13W7) can do...........

Looked at that thread. Looks very promising.

I do not have rear seats with skyhole. In order to go for skyhole installation, I will have to change all the seats of my car.

I bought my sub today and now I will have to wait for its delivery.
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      12-05-2012, 08:08 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makkan00 View Post
Looked at that thread. Looks very promising.

I do not have rear seats with skyhole. In order to go for skyhole installation, I will have to change all the seats of my car.

I bought my sub today and now I will have to wait for its delivery.
I didn't have one either, until yesterday!





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      12-06-2012, 03:45 AM   #29
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      12-06-2012, 06:43 AM   #30
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Jealous of your weather
I know what you mean. I probably spent 4-6 weeks in the UK over the years and I don't remember seeing the sun once, not even a little isolated ray coming through the clouds. That's what the Pacific Northwest is like in North America and I love good weather that's why I live just about as far away from there as possible! oh and crazy liberals too but that's another story LOL.
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      12-06-2012, 07:00 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makkan00 View Post
I am not satisfied with Alpine Type X sub. It plays lower frequencies better if frequencies <50Hz.

I have been looking for a better IB driver. I had a discussion with Kaigoss here.

I am considering two drivers JL 12W7 vs Fi IB3 12

Now looking at their specs here is my judgement and score of each

__________________JL 12 W7 ----VS----------Fi IB3 12----------winner
Fs:_________________27.2Hz -----------------23.6Hz-------------Fi
Qts:________________0.482 -------------------0.57-------------JL in my case
Vas:________________66L----------------------83.2L--------------JL
Xmas:_______________29mm------------------ 30mm-------------none
Efficiency (1W/1m)____ 86.2 dB------------------83.2 dB-----------JL
RMS________________750W--------------------550W

My explanation to these:

-Fs: Surely Fi wins and can play lower than JL.
-Qts: For IB ideal 0.7 Qts. If you start adding anything in the boot, Qts will start increasing. My boot is mostly hal full so with Fi sub, it will start to roll off sooner (as explained by John). John also explained that with lower Qts, less power will be required for the driver to reach its max xmas.
-Vas: it should be 10XVas for IB or minimum 4XVas. So if you calculate, JL 10X Vas will be closer to BMW boot space.
-Xmas: difference of 1mm is not significant.
-Efficiency: JL seems more efficient.

So in my perception and going by the attributes on the papers, JL wins it by 3:1.

If a person keeps car's trunk empty and if Fi wins Qts in that case, then the score is 2:2.


Well both of them are good drivers, but I am going to try JL on this occasion.
Sam,

In an IB application you can fully expect the bandwidth to excel from 15-45Hz. Above this things do and will roll off quick. Its very important to have strong midbass in IB installs. You won't have stong upper end response like you typically would in a sealed enclosed setup, therefore midbass is paramount to ensure good transition in your setup.

As for your judgement scores, you are comparing 2 very different drivers for 2 VERY different intended applications. Take the efficiency readings with a pinch of salt and read up about Hoffmans Iron law. The ratings on power handling are also somewhat off, Fi rate the IB3 based on mechnical power handling not thermal. Thermally that thing will take twice the rated power but in IB drivers the mechnical limitations are primary way of giving ratings.
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      12-06-2012, 07:19 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Singh View Post
Sam,

In an IB application you can fully expect the bandwidth to excel from 15-45Hz. Above this things do and will roll off quick. Its very important to have strong midbass in IB installs. You won't have stong upper end response like you typically would in a sealed enclosed setup, therefore midbass is paramount to ensure good transition in your setup.
Completely agree with you Am. I guess due to lack of midbass I am disposing Alpine sub.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Singh View Post
As for your judgement scores, you are comparing 2 very different drivers for 2 VERY different intended applications.
Silly me, I am comparing something like 4X4 Vs Saloon. Both of them are built for different purposes, but I am trying to put one in a different environment to see how it respond. JLW7 is an expensive driver and it make no sense to play with it in IB where chances of mechanical failures are high.
However it was readily available so I thought to give it a try.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Singh View Post
Take the efficiency readings with a pinch of salt and read up about Hoffmans Iron law.
Just read it and I see what you are saying here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Singh View Post
The ratings on power handling are also somewhat off, Fi rate the IB3 based on mechnical power handling not thermal. Thermally that thing will take twice the rated power but in IB drivers the mechnical limitations are primary way of giving ratings.
True and hence I have not scored any of them.
Considering thermal limits, both can produce 1000W and possibly FI can make additional 100W.
And taking mechanical power handling, both can handle 500-550w if I am not wrong.


To sum up, I had to pay more for JL 12W7 compared to Fi IB3. It does not make sense to choose it but I wanted to experiment. And it was readily available to me.

If it does not sound good, I will order Fi IB3. (waiting for a new driver is pain in bum and I am bit of impatient person when it comes to gadgets, cars etc).
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      12-06-2012, 07:26 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
I didn't have one either, until yesterday!

Good work indeed.

Kaigoss, I saw a thread on adding skyhole. Part number etc etc. But cannot find that thread now.

So have you ordered arm rest from the dealer or used your creativity to make this arm rest yourself?

Just to confirm, you took the measurements of arm rest and cut a hole in the seat and inserted arm rest in their?

What about the leather on the arm rest and the foam from the rear seat?

Hope you do not mind sharing some details on how you made it.

I picked my JL 12W7 yesterday and looking at the weight / size, I will have to use certain tricks to get it fitted on rear deck.


If I fail, then I will have to go your way of fitting IB.
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      12-07-2012, 02:41 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Singh View Post
Sam,

In an IB application you can fully expect the bandwidth to excel from 15-45Hz. Above this things do and will roll off quick. Its very important to have strong midbass in IB installs. You won't have stong upper end response like you typically would in a sealed enclosed setup, therefore midbass is paramount to ensure good transition in your setup.

As for your judgement scores, you are comparing 2 very different drivers for 2 VERY different intended applications. Take the efficiency readings with a pinch of salt and read up about Hoffmans Iron law. The ratings on power handling are also somewhat off, Fi rate the IB3 based on mechnical power handling not thermal. Thermally that thing will take twice the rated power but in IB drivers the mechnical limitations are primary way of giving ratings.
What you say about IB not having good top end? I play my 15's to 90hz to enforce my 5x7's. If you cant get good output past 45hz, you need to choose a better driver and ditch a class d amp and go with a good class ab amp.
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      12-07-2012, 06:43 AM   #35
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When modeling my Infinities with Qts values of .7 and .48 I noticed a noticeable drop off above 50hz with the higher Q driver. After listening to both I can confirm that. The higher Q driver had very little impact, but better low end extension. The lower Q driver has excellent impact up top and sounds much more controlled (tighter) but lacks a little on the bottom end. However compared to a sealed enclosure it is still night and day.
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      12-07-2012, 07:27 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
I know what you mean. I probably spent 4-6 weeks in the UK over the years and I don't remember seeing the sun once, not even a little isolated ray coming through the clouds. That's what the Pacific Northwest is like in North America and I love good weather that's why I live just about as far away from there as possible! oh and crazy liberals too but that's another story LOL.
Lol yeah we're lucky to get 3-4 weeks of actual summer sun a year!
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      12-07-2012, 08:26 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makkan00
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
I didn't have one either, until yesterday!

Good work indeed.

Kaigoss, I saw a thread on adding skyhole. Part number etc etc. But cannot find that thread now.

So have you ordered arm rest from the dealer or used your creativity to make this arm rest yourself?

Just to confirm, you took the measurements of arm rest and cut a hole in the seat and inserted arm rest in their?

What about the leather on the arm rest and the foam from the rear seat?

Hope you do not mind sharing some details on how you made it.

I picked my JL 12W7 yesterday and looking at the weight / size, I will have to use certain tricks to get it fitted on rear deck.


If I fail, then I will have to go your way of fitting IB.
It's actually very easy. Open the armrest. See the black plastic cover? Pop it out, needs some brute strength. What you see then is what you see on the pic above, which is the actual plastic trunk wall. You can cut through it easily.

I'll make a DIY on this.
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      12-07-2012, 10:04 AM   #38
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So kaigoss, you given any thoughts about the best way to go back to OEM?

Also, i know you've probably used different subs etc, but generally how do you rate a corner enclosure and IB? When you said sealed enclosure in an earlier post were you referring to a corner one?
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      12-07-2012, 10:51 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mob17
So kaigoss, you given any thoughts about the best way to go back to OEM?

Also, i know you've probably used different subs etc, but generally how do you rate a corner enclosure and IB? When you said sealed enclosure in an earlier post were you referring to a corner one?
Nope, I just cut like a mofo and never looked back!

Yes I was referring to a sealed corner enclosure. If you still want to go that route I think you can get it to be very loud but you will need a special sub (I only found one in my search) and you will need at least 800w, better 1000 or more. At that point I do not know if the electrical system is adequate anymore, that's why I decided to go IB.
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      12-07-2012, 11:56 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMR View Post
What you say about IB not having good top end? I play my 15's to 90hz to enforce my 5x7's. If you cant get good output past 45hz, you need to choose a better driver and ditch a class d amp and go with a good class ab amp.
I'm aware of damping factors and slew rates affecting tonality when it comes to Amp topology.

You have completely under looked enclosures here, You can not deny science!

2 15" IB drivers in your case Vs a single 12" driver in around 7-8 cubes. You simply can not outlook Hoffman's iron law. Two VERY different setups sir
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
When modeling my Infinities with Qts values of .7 and .48 I noticed a noticeable drop off above 50hz with the higher Q driver. After listening to both I can confirm that. The higher Q driver had very little impact, but better low end extension. The lower Q driver has excellent impact up top and sounds much more controlled (tighter) but lacks a little on the bottom end. However compared to a sealed enclosure it is still night and day.
BINGO!

High Qts generally will have smoother tonal characteristics, lower Qts more impact. Qts is also a good indicator of motor strength and how its delivered. Be it a peaky type driver with a short wound coil means it won't have much in the way of massive throw for those big dynamics.
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      12-07-2012, 02:11 PM   #41
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Nope, I just cut like a mofo and never looked back!

Yes I was referring to a sealed corner enclosure. If you still want to go that route I think you can get it to be very loud but you will need a special sub (I only found one in my search) and you will need at least 800w, better 1000 or more. At that point I do not know if the electrical system is adequate anymore, that's why I decided to go IB.
With all the enclosures in the trunk, sound waves have to make their way into cabin and hence you require more powerful sub.

Out of different enclosures, corncer enclosure gives you least rattles.


IB is basically efficient way of having bass in the cabin and there are few reasons;
1- Sub fires into cabin directly.
2- You do not require very powerful subs, as sub fires straight into cabin. If you go for IB sub (made of that purpose) then you follow their power ratings, otherwise on a normal sub, keep it at 50-60% of power rating to avoid mechanical failure.
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      12-07-2012, 02:37 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
Nope, I just cut like a mofo and never looked back!
Haha sometimes you just have to cross that bridge when it comes!

Quote:
Yes I was referring to a sealed corner enclosure. If you still want to go that route I think you can get it to be very loud but you will need a special sub (I only found one in my search) and you will need at least 800w, better 1000 or more. At that point I do not know if the electrical system is adequate anymore, that's why I decided to go IB.
I decided quite a while ago (2 months) that I want an IB application. Was just intersted in how you found the 2 different applications.

I can't wait now!
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      12-07-2012, 03:31 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Singh View Post
Sam,

In an IB application you can fully expect the bandwidth to excel from 15-45Hz. Above this things do and will roll off quick. Its very important to have strong midbass in IB installs. You won't have stong upper end response like you typically would in a sealed enclosed setup, therefore midbass is paramount to ensure good transition in your setup.

As for your judgement scores, you are comparing 2 very different drivers for 2 VERY different intended applications. Take the efficiency readings with a pinch of salt and read up about Hoffmans Iron law. The ratings on power handling are also somewhat off, Fi rate the IB3 based on mechnical power handling not thermal. Thermally that thing will take twice the rated power but in IB drivers the mechnical limitations are primary way of giving ratings.

Am
After reading lots of material and looking at the specs of both subs, JL 12W7 seems very promising for IB. I am not saying better than IB3 but should give the results similar to IB3.

Also considering that my boot is half full most of the time, I am hoping that it will give me excellent results.

What do you say?

Tried to install it today on the rear deck. Loads of work is involved, but eventually I will get there.
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      12-07-2012, 03:33 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
When modeling my Infinities with Qts values of .7 and .48 I noticed a noticeable drop off above 50hz with the higher Q driver. After listening to both I can confirm that. The higher Q driver had very little impact, but better low end extension. The lower Q driver has excellent impact up top and sounds much more controlled (tighter) but lacks a little on the bottom end. However compared to a sealed enclosure it is still night and day.
Kaigoss, which two subs have you compared?
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