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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > Tracking, Autocrossing, Dragstrip, Driving Techniques > Red Line Water Wetter



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      08-12-2007, 05:24 PM   #1
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Red Line Water Wetter

There is still no clear cut diagnosis as to the heat soak/power loss symtoms in our cars when run at the track at high outside temperatures. Oil, coolant, and air intake temps have been discussed, but no one definative culprit has been established. We know what the factory shut down thresholds temps are and our cars are shuting down before hitting these temps.

Someone posted that charge air intake temps were around 140 degrees and that should be acceptable and should not cause a shut down, although lower temps would produce more power and this is to be seen with the various IC upgrades that are coming to market.

Oil temps are high, but no one has exceeded 295 degrees. A change to a racing synthetic may bring temps down a bit or provide a more stable oil vescosity, like Redline 5w40.

Coolant temps can be immediately reduced by running water without antifreeze in climates that are not prone to freezing temperatures (SoCal). The addition of Redline's Water Wetter to water alone, can reduce the coolant temps another 15 to 20 degrees. Running a mixture of water and antifreeze with Water Wetter does not lower the temps any more than 100% water. If our cars are seeing coolant temps as high as 240 (members have posted temps above 230 consistantly at the track), water with Water Wetter could reduce our coolant temps 20 to 30 degrees lower (than water and antifreeze), with a new result of 210 to 220 degrees in a track environment. This sounds like a great safety net to insure our cars don't come close to the factory shut down specs on coolant temp.

Has anyone run Water Wetter and water only at the track and monitored coolant temps by a software program? Can someone do this for us in an upcoming track event. I am going to change the coolant and do this in my car, but I have no track event planned in the next 30 days. It will be interesting to see if this mod alone solves the heat soak/shut down problems so many of us have discussed. If this doesn't work, the only other alternative is to manufacture a larger, more efficient radiator.
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      08-13-2007, 07:04 PM   #2
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I guess I picked the wrong title for this thread
Any comments?
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      08-13-2007, 07:19 PM   #3
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You sure the coolant is able to be mixed with water wetter?
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      08-13-2007, 08:18 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sg335 View Post
Someone posted that charge air intake temps were around 140 degrees and that should be acceptable
I posted that number but remember I recorded the 140 on my commute and the outside air temp was only ~85 degrees. Hardly a track setting....
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      08-13-2007, 08:35 PM   #5
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id like to know who has posted temps above 240 for coolant

i think your thinking oil temps and coolant temps are synonymous

depending on the average track speed (it would have to be like slower than auto x speed) there should be no way for coolant temps to raise out of control since cars come with radiators well in excess of nearly any conditions that the car could be put through


the only way to read the coolant comes in Celsius which makes me think your either thinking wrong, quoting someone who was thinking wrong, or both
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      08-13-2007, 08:38 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 533ogetnom View Post
id like to know who has posted temps above 240 for coolant
That was I (look here for the charts: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75028). They are degrees F. My coolant reached these temps during every session at Big Willow. The car had a near total loss of power during every session unless I backed off and ran at ~80%. Coolant temps were recorded using a Davis CarChip.
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      08-13-2007, 08:43 PM   #7
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how did u record your coolant temps

uh everyone but the last looks normal, your target temp for coolant is around 210 degrees feren
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      08-13-2007, 08:47 PM   #8
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People on the VW forums I used to frequent played around with Redline water wetter. I did with my old VR6 corrado. For results with it you need to run straight distilled water + water wetter, without any coolant at all. I saw *maybe* a 7-10 degree water temp improvement, nothing dramatic. You can mix it in with coolant, it just reduces the water wetter's effectiveness. Mind you this was on a car that didn't have overheating issues, I was just trying to minimize heat soak. Basically if your cooling system is adequate enough, the thermostat will be modulating how much coolant goes to the radiator anyway, thus controlling the temperature on its own. And once the thermostat is full open, I wouldn't expect it to stop a run away overheating problem due to excessive oil temps. My concerns with using straight water +redline would be (of course) lack of anti-freeze protection and possibly anti boil/anti-corrosion protection - it's not something you would want to do and just forget about. One unexpected hard freeze later...
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      08-13-2007, 08:47 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 533ogetnom View Post
how did u record your coolant temps

uh everyone but the last looks normal, your target temp for coolant is around 210 degrees feren
Right. I used a Davis CarChip plugged into the OBDII port and the last chart is one of roughly 6 times my car lost power.
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      08-13-2007, 08:51 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reb03 View Post
Right. I used a Davis CarChip plugged into the OBDII port and the last chart is one of roughly 6 times my car lost power.
and your oil temps at the time? have the cooler?

i think autos have coolant circulating the transimison as well? but im not even 60% sure
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      08-13-2007, 08:53 PM   #11
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what else will that thing log? i might have to invest in one
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      08-13-2007, 09:00 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 533ogetnom View Post
what else will that thing log? i might have to invest in one
Oil temp was 285-290 and yes I have the cooler.

The CarChip logs:

Speed in MPH
RPM
Throttle position
Engine Load
Coolant Temp
Intake manifold pressure
Air flow rate
Intake air temp
Timing advance
Fuel pressure
Fuel system status
Short-term fuel trim
Long-term fuel trim
Oxygen sensor voltage
Battery voltage
...and a few other things...

You can record any of the above 5 at once.
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      08-13-2007, 09:04 PM   #13
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can you overlap the oil and temp for one of the overheats?
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      08-13-2007, 09:09 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 533ogetnom View Post
can you overlap the oil and temp for one of the overheats?
The downside: it doesn't record oil temp but damn near everything else. I just looked at my oil temp gauge every time my engine shut down and it was always 285-290. jjlawyer had the same oil temps when his car shut down at the Streets of Willow. He has a 6MT.
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      08-13-2007, 09:22 PM   #15
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i would be interested in your results if you try this then, more effecient radiator cooling in the situations your in would definably indirectly help with oil cooling (well a little anyway)

are you going to try what the OP is talking about?
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      08-13-2007, 09:48 PM   #16
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I may try what sg335 suggests but I leased this car for the very reason that it was a first year run and I didn't want to be stuck with a car with problems. I don't want to do something that may void the warranty. I will check with my local independent BMW shop that techs my car for my driving schools (Bullet Performance in Costa Mesa) to see what they think about the coolant cocktails. My next DE is Buttonwillow Sept. 7.
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      08-13-2007, 09:52 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reb03 View Post
I may try what sg335 suggests but I leased this car for the very reason that it was a first year run and I didn't want to be stuck with a car with problems. I don't want to do something that may void the warranty. I will check with my local independent BMW shop that techs my car for my driving schools (Bullet Performance in Costa Mesa) to see what they think about the coolant cocktails. My next DE is Buttonwillow Sept. 7.
just the fact that you took it on the track voided your warranty so i wouldnt worry too much
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      08-13-2007, 11:46 PM   #18
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Other information has been posted before regarding coolant temps and factory shut down values as temp approach 240+ degrees. We are trying to isolate the problem here and address the problem as a cooling problem within this thread. Oil temps have been addressed in another thread and should continue to be discussed therein. It may just be a combination of the two.

If driving at the track would void your warranty, especially if nothing happend to your car, then the BMWCCA would be shut down by BMWNA or Gmbh. In fact the South Carolina factory proving grounds and associated driving school which holds some of its events on a "track" should void a customer's warranty upon factory delivery of their car and attendance to their event... And what about Euro delivery and a driving school at the Ring hosted by BMW?

Redline Water Wetter does contain some anti-corrosive properties and is safe to run in a street car. Distilled water is better than tap, and you can run anti-freeze with it but your net gains in heat loss are reduced. 50/50 water and anti-freeze with a bottle of Water Wetter is better than no Water Wetter with the same 50/50 mixture. Water alone is better than a either of the above, but has not anti-corrosive properties and should not be run in cold temperatures. Water with Water Wetter is the best combination and offers the most heat reduction, and is unfortunately only available to those of us that live in regions with favorable temperatures.
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      08-14-2007, 12:23 AM   #19
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you should re read your warranty there guy
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      08-14-2007, 07:56 AM   #20
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Moving away from the warranty question and staying on topic for a moment...

As I review these threads what jumps out at me is that everybody is focused on oil and water because these are the two cooling mediums. For the sake of thoroughness, let's expand the analysis a bit.

Take for example jjlawyer's experience...his car would be fine and then lose power for a very short time, then be fine again. I suspect it is unlikely his fluid temperatures would change enough to make a huge difference in 30 seconds or less. So was that the culprit?

SG335...are you running Procede? Have you performed the boost solenoid bypass?

Here's what I am thinking...I had a 1989 MR2 Supercharged track car. The header was so close to the hydraulic lines that it boiled my clutch fluid. The problem was solved by putting heat insulating tape on the hard lines.

So is there some component in the 335i's engine compartment that is getting heat soaked and causing the cars to momentarily lose power...such as the boost solenoids? I know that the vacuum lines around the turbo are braided (as opposed to straight rubber). Maybe the heat is causing vacuum leaks? Maybe it is effecting some sensor and making the car flaky??

Why aren't we getting this under aggressive street driving? For example, during my recent ED it was well over 95 most of the time. My car was full of people and luggage, A/C on full blast all day. During the few days I had to run hard on the autobahn over mountain passes, I never experienced a heat related issue. Admittedly I was not running as hard as I will on the track, but those were still pretty demanding situations.

One final thought...what gas are you all running on the track? Is it possible that the computers are sensing impending detonation and reacting to that?
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      08-14-2007, 07:59 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 533ogetnom View Post
just the fact that you took it on the track voided your warranty so i wouldnt worry too much
A non-timed, passing by point by only BMWCCA driving school does not void the factory warranty. This is a "school" and not racing. I confirmed this with BMW NA.
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      08-14-2007, 08:02 AM   #22
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One final thought...what gas are you all running on the track?
91 at the pump
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