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      12-06-2012, 10:45 AM   #45
Michael Schott
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Originally Posted by fireline43 View Post
Problem is on this forum is people are comparing the at to the e90 not the f30. You have to ask this question on the f30 board. In comparing the f30-ats-c class. Id take the c class. The f30 is nothing special to me. The ats is dead ugly. The c class wasn't the sportiest in the past, but out of the newer ones its not that bad and it looks nice
The current C class, even with the refresh is far from sporty and in a comparison of the ATS, F30, C class and A4 would likely come in last in fun to drive. The 1.8 turbo in the 250 is slow and there is no MT option. Poor steering feel as well.
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      12-06-2012, 01:39 PM   #46
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If you read all these glamourous things about the ATS, all I ask before you reply is that you do the same thing I did and inspect the car in person. I was very disappointed just by sitting, inspecting it, and playing with the electronics and buttons. So sad, but so far from coming close to a 3 or C. The quality is just not there.
What's missing from your review is whether or not you actually drove the ATS. According to the article, the ATS won based on the chassis tuning and driving experience, not the interior.
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      12-06-2012, 01:41 PM   #47
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Not to burst anyone's bubble about the new F30 but honestly I haven't heard anything good about it from anyone. I like BMW and I wanted to like the F30 but...

A couple of friends who have been working at BMW for a long time said and I quote:
"I honestly can't recommend any of the current model 3 series. They're cheaply made and it shows. It's all about the bottom line now. It's not even a drivers car anymore."

Go take a really good look at one on the lot, I mean a good look. I was floored by how cheap it looked.

By comparison, the F30 is massive compared to the e90. It's a completely different car. The F30 is basically the size of my e39 5 series. Check the dimensions.
exactly, was pretty excited till i saw it up close at which point i was like why.
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      12-06-2012, 01:50 PM   #48
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What's missing from your review is whether or not you actually drove the ATS. According to the article, the ATS won based on the chassis tuning and driving experience, not the interior.
You are correct.
After I was disappointed from the interior, lack of trunk space and room for people in the back seats (a child would not be able to sit behind me in the ATS, i'm 6ft), sound system was not impressive compared to the H/K etc, I was not interested in driving it. Reading about the gearboxes I knew what they were talking about from driving the CTS multiple times. I did however start the engine in a new ATS (3.6) and it sounded great, when the sales person asked if I want to drive it I said maybe some other time.

If I want a "driver's car" with no room in the back and a small trunk I wouldn't get a sedan. If I want a sedan the ATS is definitely not great as one.
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      12-06-2012, 08:58 PM   #49
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I hate to say it but I expect that the 3 Series will be marketed and engineered more toward the young professional non-enthusiast types in the future. The types that buy v-6 Mustangs, except with more money. This will be especially true once the 4 Series 4 door coupe comes out. I expect that they will market and engineer this as the performance version while the 3 will be the easy to drive, bland vehicle for people that just want a BMW to drive.

I at least hope so because I had an f30 335xi as a loaner for a few days and it was nice but it reminded me way too much of my old A6. Granted, the 335 had more power but driving and size wise, they seemed similar. I swear the f30 is bigger though. So if the 4 series isn't more fun to drive, I don't know that I would buy a newer BMW.
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      12-06-2012, 09:08 PM   #50
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I hate to say it but I expect that the 3 Series will be marketed and engineered more toward the young professional non-enthusiast types in the future. The types that buy v-6 Mustangs, except with more money. This will be especially true once the 4 Series 4 door coupe comes out. I expect that they will market and engineer this as the performance version while the 3 will be the easy to drive, bland vehicle for people that just want a BMW to drive.

I at least hope so because I had an f30 335xi as a loaner for a few days and it was nice but it reminded me way too much of my old A6. Granted, the 335 had more power but driving and size wise, they seemed similar. I swear the f30 is bigger though. So if the 4 series isn't more fun to drive, I don't know that I would buy a newer BMW.
Let's wait and see what BMW will do with the new M3... I hope they don't ruin it.
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      12-07-2012, 08:17 AM   #51
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I hate to say it but I expect that the 3 Series will be marketed and engineered more toward the young professional non-enthusiast types in the future. The types that buy v-6 Mustangs, except with more money. This will be especially true once the 4 Series 4 door coupe comes out. I expect that they will market and engineer this as the performance version while the 3 will be the easy to drive, bland vehicle for people that just want a BMW to drive.

I at least hope so because I had an f30 335xi as a loaner for a few days and it was nice but it reminded me way too much of my old A6. Granted, the 335 had more power but driving and size wise, they seemed similar. I swear the f30 is bigger though. So if the 4 series isn't more fun to drive, I don't know that I would buy a newer BMW.
This is exactly why success of cars like the ATS are important. It'll help push BMW to improve the driving dynamics of the 3 series.

The same thing has been happening between the Mustang & Camaro for decades. You can get a ZL1 with insane handling and 580 Hp for $55k. Ford responds with a 200+mph Mustang for $54k. I've had 3 Camaro's and loved them, but these newer models are just insane.
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      12-07-2012, 08:47 AM   #52
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If I want a "driver's car" with no room in the back and a small trunk I wouldn't get a sedan. If I want a sedan the ATS is definitely not great as one.
And this is also the same reason why the Buick Regal failed too. Non-sense unefficient 2.0T doesn't help either.
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      12-07-2012, 09:10 AM   #53
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This is exactly why success of cars like the ATS are important. It'll help push BMW to improve the driving dynamics of the 3 series.

The same thing has been happening between the Mustang & Camaro for decades. You can get a ZL1 with insane handling and 580 Hp for $55k. Ford responds with a 200+mph Mustang for $54k. I've had 3 Camaro's and loved them, but these newer models are just insane.
Really? This is what BMW has come to? It needs Cadillac to make it improve the the driving dynamics of the 3-Series? I thought the 3-Series WAS the Ultimate Driving Machine benchmark. That's what we've all been told. Wow!
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      12-07-2012, 09:40 AM   #54
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Really? This is what BMW has come to? It needs Cadillac to make it improve the the driving dynamics of the 3-Series? I thought the 3-Series WAS the Ultimate Driving Machine benchmark. That's what we've all been told. Wow!
Have you driven an F30? How do you think it compares to the e90?

I haven't had a chance to drive the new car. Maybe it's fine. I crawled over one at an auto show. Trunk space is improved, rear seat room is better, and it's easier to get in and out of. But I keep hearing that it doesn't feel as responsive.

Other manufacturers have been trying to bottle the 3-series magic for a long time. The ATS might be the closest thing yet. Product trumps marketing and Cadillac, aside from CTS, has always been all bark and no bite. Just like Cadillac, what BMW says it builds doesn't matter as much as what comes out of the factory.

Slightly off topic, but here's a comparison between the Zeta and Alpha platform. The zeta is a Camaro version, but it also underpins CTS. Alpha is under the ATS. One is built to handle 500+ hp, and the other isn't.

Zeta (you'll need to copy and paste this into your browser):
"www.cartype.com/pics/5446/small/chevrolet_camaro_frame_10.jpg"



Alpha:

Last edited by Wrngway; 12-07-2012 at 01:35 PM.
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      12-07-2012, 09:48 AM   #55
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And this is also the same reason why the Buick Regal failed too. Non-sense unefficient 2.0T doesn't help either.
Not sure this is the real reason the Regal has not sold well. A little research says it's overpriced and the average Buick buyer (60 years old) finds it too sporty.
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      12-07-2012, 10:13 AM   #56
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.... This is a Camaro version, but it also underpins CTS. One is built to handle 500+ hp, and the other isn't.



Can't be, unless they're making 4-door Camaros now.
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      12-07-2012, 10:30 AM   #57
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Can't be, unless they're making 4-door Camaros now.
The original picture wouldn't post for some reason. Fixed now.

Alpha is under ATS. Zeta is under the current Camaro, CTS, and was also used in Monaro and the Pontiac G8.

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      12-07-2012, 11:37 AM   #58
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I hate to say it but I expect that the 3 Series will be marketed and engineered more toward the young professional non-enthusiast types in the future. The types that buy v-6 Mustangs, except with more money. This will be especially true once the 4 Series 4 door coupe comes out. I expect that they will market and engineer this as the performance version while the 3 will be the easy to drive, bland vehicle for people that just want a BMW to drive.

I at least hope so because I had an f30 335xi as a loaner for a few days and it was nice but it reminded me way too much of my old A6. Granted, the 335 had more power but driving and size wise, they seemed similar. I swear the f30 is bigger though. So if the 4 series isn't more fun to drive, I don't know that I would buy a newer BMW.
Couldnt agree more. I think BMW is living on the brilliant marketing to young professionals over the last few years. I would bet that a large majority of these cars get sold to non enthusiasts. Most 3ers up here are awd (therefore not sport suspension etc) and it can be difficult to find a manual trans.
Times are changing. Mercedes is leading the sales race and they don't offer a manual trans. Audi is catching them both. I hope/think that the 4 will address a lot of these concerns. I think the 4 coupe looks AMAZING.
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      12-07-2012, 12:55 PM   #59
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Not sure this is the real reason the Regal has not sold well. A little research says it's overpriced and the average Buick buyer (60 years old) finds it too sporty.
The whole idea (like for the ATS) is to steal consumers not only keep the ones in their '60s. The products in both cases is not good enough to achieve the mission. Too little too late.
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      12-07-2012, 01:18 PM   #60
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As an attempt to enter the market at this level, the ATS is a better-than-expected result.

The exterior gets a B, the handling gets an A, the optional 3.6L engine gets a B+, the transmission gets a c, but whoever decided to put the dashboard from a 1988 Chevy Astro in a sport sedan needs to be sacked immediately - Interior gets an F.
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      12-07-2012, 01:27 PM   #61
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As an attempt to enter the market at this level, the ATS is a better-than-expected result.

The exterior gets a B, the handling gets an A, the optional 3.6L engine gets a B+, the transmission gets a c, but whoever decided to put the dashboard from a 1988 Chevy Astro in a sport sedan needs to be sacked immediately - Interior gets an F.
Exact repeat of a 2003 CTS. "F" as Fisher Price.
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...mparison-tests
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      12-07-2012, 02:49 PM   #62
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The whole idea (like for the ATS) is to steal consumers not only keep the ones in their '60s. The products in both cases is not good enough to achieve the mission. Too little too late.

You know this how? I agree that at this point the 2.0T version of the ATS is lacking compared to the F30 328i but it's not far behind. And this is from an enthusiast's point of view. The general public we be fine with the ATS. As a BMW devotee I think the ATS is 90% of what the F30 is and handles better to boot.
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      12-07-2012, 03:44 PM   #63
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You know this how? I agree that at this point the 2.0T version of the ATS is lacking compared to the F30 328i but it's not far behind.
Both are not impressive. The N20 gets the same EPA rating as the N55. The GM 2.0T in the ATS works hard to get a miserable 19mpg city if manual. For the record, both Honda and Toyota V6 do better.
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      12-07-2012, 03:50 PM   #64
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Both are not impressive. The N20 gets the same EPA rating as the N55. The GM 2.0T in the ATS works hard to get a miserable 19mpg city if manual. For the record, both Honda and Toyota V6 do better.
I don't recall that we were talking about fuel economy. Why are you bringing that up?
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      12-07-2012, 03:54 PM   #65
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I don't recall that we were talking about fuel economy. Why are you bringing that up?
Come on, that is *obvious*; because fuel economy is the supposed raison d'être of these engines.
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      12-07-2012, 04:01 PM   #66
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Come on, that is *obvious*; because fuel economy is the supposed raison d'être of these engines.
You are changing the subject but if you want to go there, real world figures on this and other BMW forums show the N20 engine gets significantly better fuel economy than the N55, at least 15% better which would be at least 10% better than my N52 engine.

Yes, the Caddy 2.0T engine does poorly in this regard. But them again, these cars are not bought because they get great fuel economy. The need for greater efficiency in BMW is because of CAFE numbers. For GM, I'm guessing Cadillac is a very small part of the overall volume and they make that up by selling a lot of Cruse's and Sonic's.
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