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      12-06-2012, 02:28 PM   #45
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OP, I think you made your point plenty clear now. I think it's probably a good time to end this discussion already as ECS has also given you a response (albeit not the most ideal, but acceptable in this sense).

Unfortunately, most companies would not cover shipping for returns in this kind of situation (trust me, I've experienced this kind of frustration myself plenty of times before).

Hopefully, whatever you decide to get next time (if there's a next time) or if you decide to use the current rotors you have (albeit they're made in China), things will turn out well for you.

Maybe, you can see if you can sell these rotors locally to someone else if they think it's a good deal in light where it's made. That's more work, but at least you'll be able to recuperate some of your losses.
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      12-06-2012, 02:32 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by jyeah View Post
OP, I think you made your point plenty clear now. I think it's probably a good time to end this discussion already as ECS has also given you a response (albeit not the most ideal, but acceptable in this sense).

Unfortunately, most companies would not cover shipping for returns in this kind of situation (trust me, I've experienced this kind of frustration myself plenty of times before).

Hopefully, whatever you decide to get next time (if there's a next time) or if you decide to use the current rotors you have (albeit they're made in China), things will turn out well for you.

Maybe, you can see if you can sell these rotors locally to someone else if they think it's a good deal in light where it's made. That's more work, but at least you'll be able to recuperate some of your losses.
This makes sense. It is starting to be not very productive now.
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      12-06-2012, 02:45 PM   #47
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I don't get it. Why is the fact the rotors were made in China so bad?

If the company the rotors came from is reputable and makes a consistently good product, thats all that matters. Whats China have to do with it if the company makes them the same way regardless of being in China vs. Germany?
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      12-06-2012, 03:01 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by DUI Elite View Post
I don't get it. Why is the fact the rotors were made in China so bad?

If the company the rotors came from is reputable and makes a consistently good product, thats all that matters. Whats China have to do with it if the company makes them the same way regardless of being in China vs. Germany?
Ideally, what you've said is the case. However, the quality control on Chinese sources can be lacking sometimes even with reputable vendors and people have bad experiences as such.
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      12-06-2012, 03:07 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by annalisa_ferri View Post
...and probably they make money anyway from it!

You see, somebody understands EXACTLY what I mean.

Regarding the European kits, i have to say that many other options are available (e.g., the BMW Performance rotors), but to say the truth no kit offers the same specs/price ratio and is available for both front and rear from the same vendor. Brembo BBK (or similar kits) was not an option due to the cost (in excess of 3000 usd). The favourable exchange ratio USD/EUR had a role, too. And, finally, I've experienced always exceptional results with "made in USA" stuff.
I understand what you mean but you did not want to buy OEM. Rolce Royce quality control process is comparable to BMW QC as both are OEM.

You can't compare after market QC of a small company X to BMW QC. Simply put, the price reflects that. BMW's budget is in billions.

You gotta pay to play!! Did you maybe expect Brembo for 1/5 the price?

If you don't want to spend the dough for high quality performance then don't complain!

I work in aerospace engineering and know exactly what you mean. The issue is you did not pay for 5* product and you can't expect to get one. Cosmetics (visual appeal) IS NOT more important than quality and performance.

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      12-06-2012, 03:18 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jyeah View Post
Ideally, what you've said is the case. However, the quality control on Chinese sources can be lacking sometimes even with reputable vendors and people have bad experiences as such.
Finally somebody does not fear to say impolite things. Especially taking into account the fact that we are in a bmw forum, and I can immagine that one of the reasons for the owners to buy their Exx is QUALITY
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      12-06-2012, 03:20 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by NokTurNaL 330i View Post
Did you maybe expect Brembo for 1/5 the price?
Not at all. Just true "made is USA" stuff. With all the limitations of a 900 usd set.
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      12-06-2012, 05:02 PM   #52
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How about the Zimmerman made rotors sold as OEM equipment from BMW?
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      12-06-2012, 05:14 PM   #53
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How about the Zimmerman made rotors sold as OEM equipment from BMW?
I thought OEM was ATE?
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      12-06-2012, 05:21 PM   #54
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I thought OEM was ATE?
Both Zimmermann and ATE are good products if you have something OEM-like in mind.
Others are EBC (UK) and I have to say that also Brembo has excellent OEM-quality rotors.
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      12-06-2012, 05:32 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DUI Elite View Post
I don't get it. Why is the fact the rotors were made in China so bad?If the company the rotors came from is reputable and makes a consistently good product, thats all that matters. Whats China have to do with it if the company makes them the same way regardless of being in China vs. Germany?
I've been working for a Mfg for over 20 yrs and have seen many cases in which plants were suppose to be copy exact in China, but had poor Quality Control. Thus, yields drop, quality of shipped parts degrade, perceived company quality drops in market place. This is not only in China but other parts of the World where Process Control Systems (PCS) are lacking. This is what they could be doing:

how do you check that the correct alloy has been used X-ray defraction, SEMs
how do you ensure that correct forming has been performed in the Chinese/Taiwanese/wherever foundry PCS, tolerances, SEMs
how do you verify that the proper heat treatment has been applied in the Chinese/Taiwanese/wherever plantHardness check
how do you check that blanks have been handled properly PCS

That said, how can ECS prove this ? The only way is to audit the company which I can guarantee they do not. ECS is a distributor so one needs to ask these questions in advance, or just assume they are made cheaply due to the sale price.

FYI....Germany is well know for quality, but in China there are many companies that are not. Yes, the iPhone and iPads are assembled in China.
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      12-06-2012, 05:50 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by annalisa_ferri View Post
Both Zimmermann and ATE are good products if you have something OEM-like in mind.
Others are EBC (UK) and I have to say that also Brembo has excellent OEM-quality rotors.
I believe it's best to go with brand name products.

The reason I bought EBC dash-slotted rotors was because they are made in the UK, from high-quality metal and with good quality control and certifications, from a brake specialist company that's been around for many years with a reputation to protect. They also have drilled/slotted rotors available.

I've seen alloy wheels made in China with a fake certification stamp (post #5 in this thread): http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=370330

and I too would be concerned about getting brakes from a no-name Chinese source, your life can depend on your brakes.

Last edited by AlanAZ; 12-06-2012 at 06:07 PM.
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      12-06-2012, 06:02 PM   #57
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This is not related to ECS in any way. My client sent me this awhile back for your viewing pleasure. I guess safety is not an issue either

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      12-06-2012, 06:06 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ken1137 View Post
I've been working for a Mfg for over 20 yrs and have seen many cases in which plants were suppose to be copy exact in China, but had poor Quality Control. Thus, yields drop, quality of shipped parts degrade, perceived company quality drops in market place. This is not only in China but other parts of the World where Process Control Systems (PCS) are lacking. This is what they could be doing:

how do you check that the correct alloy has been used X-ray defraction, SEMs
how do you ensure that correct forming has been performed in the Chinese/Taiwanese/wherever foundry PCS, tolerances, SEMs
how do you verify that the proper heat treatment has been applied in the Chinese/Taiwanese/wherever plantHardness check
how do you check that blanks have been handled properly PCS

That said, how can ECS prove this ? The only way is to audit the company which I can guarantee they do not. ECS is a distributor so one needs to ask these questions in advance, or just assume they are made cheaply due to the sale price.

FYI....Germany is well know for quality, but in China there are many companies that are not. Yes, the iPhone and iPads are assembled in China.
What a relief! There is somebody on this Earth who speaks the same language as me.
And it is not by chance that he has a relevant background in the industry processes
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      12-06-2012, 06:09 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ken1137 View Post
This is not related to ECS in any way. My client sent me this awhile back for your viewing pleasure. I guess safety is not an issue either

Jesus!
Thanks, people is usually afraid to write/show impolite things!
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      12-06-2012, 07:44 PM   #60
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You get what you pay for. On things as important as brakes and tires, why buy cheap?

Nothing wrong with a good deal on proven items, but what do you expect for the price?
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      12-07-2012, 05:22 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EYE4SPEED View Post
Nothing wrong with a good deal on proven items, but what do you expect for the price?
Simply, a good set "made in USA".
I should simply have asked in advance.
All this is to help people not to repeat my error.
I'm not saying in any way that the rotors in question are crap or do not fit any application
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      12-07-2012, 11:12 AM   #62
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We will attempt to answer your pointed questions as clearly as possible. Rest assured that we at ECS are passionate about what we do and we take pride in our products and great responsibility in how they are designed, manufactured, quality inspected, and tested. These are rotors that we are proud to run on our own cars, including but not limited to an Audi R8 and BMW E90 M3.

How do you check that the correct alloy has been used?
We subject products from our suppliers to not only dimensional quality inspection, but also material analysis. First production samples are submitted to a materials testing lab to verify that the material meets specifications. In this case, we are working with suppliers that we have a long standing manufacturing partnership with and can assure you they are made of the high quality materials we have specified.

2 Piece Rotor Rings:
  • Our rotor ring supplier is ISO 9001 certified.
  • Our rotor rings are made from FC-30 (equivalent to US ASTM standard 45A/DIN GG30) cast iron with a carbon content as high as 3.3%.
  • Why cast iron?
    • Cast iron actually gets stronger between 500-600F and displays stable mechanical properties up to and over 1000°F
    • Hardness and strength aren’t compromised due to heat which contributes to great wear resistance, particularly at elevated temperatures.
    • Excellent thermal conductivity and heat absorption properties. High heat capacity (heat absorption) combined with high thermal conductivity make it a great material to absorb and dissipate heat more quickly
    • One of the best materials for good vibration damping properties; contributes to quiet braking and no rotor induced squeaking

2 Piece Rotor Hats:
  • CNC Machined from billet 6061-T6 aluminum.
    • Why 6061-T6?
      • T6 temper 6061 has an ultimate tensile strength of at least 42,000 psi (300 MPa) and yield strength of at least 35,000 psi (241 MPa). Coupled with it's excellent strength, light weight nature and superior thermal conductivity, we are able to produce a much lighter rotor that is better able to dissipate heat, and withstand the stresses of thermal expansion pushed to the limit.

How do you ensure that correct forming has been performed in the Chinese/Taiwanese/wherever foundry?
  • Are you referring to casting defects? Rotor rings are cast, then CNC machined to our specification. In this case we are at the mercy of our supplier, who is ISO 9001 certified, to correctly cast a rotor ring. Final machining/dimensional inspection is easily performed in house.
  • Any casting defects are easily found during the machining process, again being processed at a facility that is ISO 9001 certified.
  • Rotor hats are CNC machined from 6061-T6 billet. There is no "forming process", as you call it.


How do you verify that the proper heat treatment has been applied in the Chinese/Taiwanese/wherever plant?
  • For our 2 piece rotors, the heat treatment that is performed is only for stress relief after the casting process. This stress relief is to reduce the potential for stress cracks and warping due to residual stresses left over from the casting process.
  • Our ECS GEOMET® rotors follow standard casting and machining best practice for a high quality OE replacement rotor.
and so on...

To answer a few relevant questions you didn't ask:
  • ALL ECS suppliers are subject to scrutiny regarding their quality management systems. All are either ISO 9001 certified, or have clear and documented quality control systems in place.
  • All ECS designed products are subject to incoming quality inspection at ECS with a CMM (coordinate measuring machine) by our team of R&D engineers. This internal quality inspection system is well documented and serves to ensure our suppliers are consistently giving us product that meets our quality and performance expectations.
  • All ECS designed products are subjected to test fitment and road testing.
  • Our 2 Piece Rotors have been subjected to thousands of miles of hard street use and to the elements (including snow and salt) for years. They have also been subjected to scientific brutal stress testing at the track, performing countless high speed stops in quick succession. We have measured stopping distances and elevated rotor temperatures of over 1000*F for long sustained periods (to the point of rotor bluing and catching brake pads on fire), as well as subjecting rotors to careful post-test inspection for signs of irregular wear, warping, stress cracking, or any other signs of failure.
  • Our rotors have proven themselves to be robust, demonstrating excellent wear characteristics, no warping, no thermal stress cracking, no signs of hot spots and minimal pad glazing.
  • Ever do 100 emergency stops from 100 to 0 mph in quick succession? We have, many times. It's nauseating and exhausting.



We are confident these rotors will perform well. Any further information regarding the development and design of these rotors is deemed proprietary and confidential. No further questions will be answered.
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      12-07-2012, 11:32 AM   #63
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Sometimes people underestimate products because of their origin, when in fact the country on origin doesnt have alot to do with the quality itself rather then the cheap labor they can get from the workers.

Sometimes it depends on the amount of products they develop as well, this may be a weird analogy but it may shed some light on some people...a place like zaxbys that ONLY focuses on making chicken makes better quality chicken then you would find at a place like Mcdonalds or BK where they make Burgers, fish(nasty), chicken etc etc etc. Ive come to find a few small companies that develop and focus on only one time and make pretty decent quality products and fairly priced.

And last but not least let it be no surprise that alot of these companies that say they develop their products in the US do it in countries like China and Taiwan where the labor is dirt cheap and they get away paying less as a business, then claim that their product is made in the US with US standards. Not too long ago i made a similar post on a 350Z forum regarding the quality of DDM tuning HIDS which sold for about $70 $80 dollars per kit, and not only were they made with the same quality as the ones that go for $30 on ebay but some of them came mailed directly from china and with the same labels as if they bought them on ebay and just had them shipped to you. Pretty shitty i might add but lets face it, to them we are a business..i dont think anyone in particular cares about our safety and the functionality of our cars unless someone gets killed because of it and they catch a lawsuit.

SAD BUT TRUE..


on a different note, HAPPY HOLIDAYS EVERYONE!!
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      12-07-2012, 11:49 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECSTuning View Post
We will attempt to answer your pointed questions as clearly as possible. Rest assured that we at ECS are passionate about what we do and we take pride in our products and great responsibility in how they are designed, manufactured, quality inspected, and tested. These are rotors that we are proud to run on our own cars, including but not limited to an Audi R8 and BMW E90 M3.

How do you check that the correct alloy has been used?
We subject products from our suppliers to not only dimensional quality inspection, but also material analysis. First production samples are submitted to a materials testing lab to verify that the material meets specifications. In this case, we are working with suppliers that we have a long standing manufacturing partnership with and can assure you they are made of the high quality materials we have specified.

2 Piece Rotor Rings:
  • Our rotor ring supplier is ISO 9001 certified.
  • Our rotor rings are made from FC-30 (equivalent to US ASTM standard 45A/DIN GG30) cast iron with a carbon content as high as 3.3%.
  • Why cast iron?
    • Cast iron actually gets stronger between 500-600F and displays stable mechanical properties up to and over 1000°F
    • Hardness and strength aren’t compromised due to heat which contributes to great wear resistance, particularly at elevated temperatures.
    • Excellent thermal conductivity and heat absorption properties. High heat capacity (heat absorption) combined with high thermal conductivity make it a great material to absorb and dissipate heat more quickly
    • One of the best materials for good vibration damping properties; contributes to quiet braking and no rotor induced squeaking

2 Piece Rotor Hats:
  • CNC Machined from billet 6061-T6 aluminum.
    • Why 6061-T6?
      • T6 temper 6061 has an ultimate tensile strength of at least 42,000 psi (300 MPa) and yield strength of at least 35,000 psi (241 MPa). Coupled with it's excellent strength, light weight nature and superior thermal conductivity, we are able to produce a much lighter rotor that is better able to dissipate heat, and withstand the stresses of thermal expansion pushed to the limit.

How do you ensure that correct forming has been performed in the Chinese/Taiwanese/wherever foundry?
  • Are you referring to casting defects? Rotor rings are cast, then CNC machined to our specification. In this case we are at the mercy of our supplier, who is ISO 9001 certified, to correctly cast a rotor ring. Final machining/dimensional inspection is easily performed in house.
  • Any casting defects are easily found during the machining process, again being processed at a facility that is ISO 9001 certified.
  • Rotor hats are CNC machined from 6061-T6 billet. There is no "forming process", as you call it.


How do you verify that the proper heat treatment has been applied in the Chinese/Taiwanese/wherever plant?
  • For our 2 piece rotors, the heat treatment that is performed is only for stress relief after the casting process. This stress relief is to reduce the potential for stress cracks and warping due to residual stresses left over from the casting process.
  • Our ECS GEOMET® rotors follow standard casting and machining best practice for a high quality OE replacement rotor.
and so on...

To answer a few relevant questions you didn't ask:
  • ALL ECS suppliers are subject to scrutiny regarding their quality management systems. All are either ISO 9001 certified, or have clear and documented quality control systems in place.
  • All ECS designed products are subject to incoming quality inspection at ECS with a CMM (coordinate measuring machine) by our team of R&D engineers. This internal quality inspection system is well documented and serves to ensure our suppliers are consistently giving us product that meets our quality and performance expectations.
  • All ECS designed products are subjected to test fitment and road testing.
  • Our 2 Piece Rotors have been subjected to thousands of miles of hard street use and to the elements (including snow and salt) for years. They have also been subjected to scientific brutal stress testing at the track, performing countless high speed stops in quick succession. We have measured stopping distances and elevated rotor temperatures of over 1000*F for long sustained periods (to the point of rotor bluing and catching brake pads on fire), as well as subjecting rotors to careful post-test inspection for signs of irregular wear, warping, stress cracking, or any other signs of failure.
  • Our rotors have proven themselves to be robust, demonstrating excellent wear characteristics, no warping, no thermal stress cracking, no signs of hot spots and minimal pad glazing.
  • Ever do 100 emergency stops from 100 to 0 mph in quick succession? We have, many times. It's nauseating and exhausting.



We are confident these rotors will perform well. Any further information regarding the development and design of these rotors is deemed proprietary and confidential. No further questions will be answered.
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      12-07-2012, 12:25 PM   #65
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Finally ECS did the homework…

It took more than 6500 views and 300 replies (and counting) from users all around the world to have substantial questions related to quality and process control answered.

Why this harsh, sometimes boring pin-pall was needed, remains a mystery to me, especially considering that many other manufacturers have this information readily and easily available in the description of similar products. Just as example, have a look to this from PFC – Performance Friction:

“ALL parts are proudly made in the USA”
Reference: http://www.performancefriction.com/about-us/faqs.aspx

“Performance Friction Corporation, 83 Carbon Metallic Highway, Clover, SC 29710, USA fulfills the requirements of the following ISO Technical Specification: ISO/TS 16949 : 2009”

“Performance Friction Corporation, 83 Carbon Metallic Highway, Clover, SC 29710, USA fulfills the requirements of the following ISO Technical Specification: ISO 14001 : 2004”
Reference: http://www.performancefriction.com/p...on-brakes.aspx

As I admitted several times, my error remains: not having asked in advance, and having assumed that ECS does the same as others do: making this product in the USA. But you know, once the confidence is lost, it is lost. That’s it.

I can only hope that ECS would include the infos in his web pages, side by side with a clear statement about the origin of the products. To discover this opening the box and hearing “we would have told you if you only had asked” is not a serious approach.

Thanks to ECS and to who has (positively) contributed to the discussion.
Following ECS, I will not keep the thread alive.

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      12-07-2012, 12:45 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by annalisa_ferri View Post
Finally ECS did the homework…

It took more than 6500 views and 300 replies (and counting) from users all around the world to have substantial questions related to quality and process control answered.

Why this harsh, sometimes boring pin-pall was needed, remains a mystery to me, especially considering that many other manufacturers have this information readily and easily available in the description of similar products. Just as example, have a look to this from PFC – Performance Friction:

“ALL parts are proudly made in the USA”
Reference: http://www.performancefriction.com/about-us/faqs.aspx

“Performance Friction Corporation, 83 Carbon Metallic Highway, Clover, SC 29710, USA fulfills the requirements of the following ISO Technical Specification: ISO/TS 16949 : 2009”

“Performance Friction Corporation, 83 Carbon Metallic Highway, Clover, SC 29710, USA fulfills the requirements of the following ISO Technical Specification: ISO 14001 : 2004”
Reference: http://www.performancefriction.com/p...on-brakes.aspx

As I admitted several times, my error remains: not having asked in advance, and having assumed that ECS does the same as others do: making this product in the USA. But you know, once the confidence is lost, it is lost. That’s it.

I can only hope that ECS would include the infos in his web pages, side by side with a clear statement about the origin of the products. To discover this opening the box and hearing “we would have told you if you only had asked” is not a serious approach.

Thanks to ECS and to who has (positively) contributed to the discussion.
Following ECS, I will not keep the thread alive.

well said
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