[The HACK]

This reminds me of this one time...

I used to work at a very reputable automotive aftermarket company, based out here in the United States. I was tasked to hold a specific event to reward our loyal customers. I won't go into details, but let's just say it's an event not unlike what you'd get from BMW's ///M school, but only cost the participants $120 for a day. Because, you know, we wanted to really reward some of our most loyal customers.

At the end of the day there were some prizes given away. Some including about $500 worth of parts, some including $500+ worth of DISCOUNTS from our participating vendor(s).

A few months go by, and I get an angry email from the participant who won one of the grand prizes at the end of the day. He demand that we pay him $1,200 for the parts that was promised (we gave him the $500 part), which includes a brand new set of Michelin tires. I told him he was on crack. No where does it state that the Michelins were for free. And even if it did say so, it was clearly marked that "prizes are subject to change."

Sure enough, said participant threatened to sue us and "ruin our reputation on the forums." I told him to go pound sand. He got a $1,200 worth of track day for paying $120, on top of that $500 worth of parts, AND a $500 discount on a new set of tires. Needless to say, said participant went on just about every single forum he could find that has anything remotely to do with our products and started bad-mouthing us. And was making harassing calls to our office daily asking to speak to the President and CEO, and left menacing voicemails on the phone.

Finally my boss caved and told accounts payable to cut him a check for $1,200. I argued until I was blue in the face to NOT GIVE IN TO THESE TERRORIST DEMANDS.

I was overruled. So what did we get out of the entire exchange? The douche on the other end of the phone got paid $1,080 ($1,200 minus his $120 entry fee), we had a sh*t load of threads bad-mouthing us on the forums and not once did the douche apologize or go back to edit his threads, and regardless of what we do, we ended up looking like the bad guys. I was furious. If we're going to look like bad guys anyway, why the f**k give in to his ridiculous demands?

At the end of the day, the lesson learned here is, you either ESCALADE or you acquiesce as the vendor/manufacturer, and the stories you hear on these intarweb forums is NEVER what it seems.

[Meeni]

Originally Posted by EYE4SPEED

You get what you pay for. On things as important as brakes and tires, why buy cheap?

That tends to be false. The price of most items on the shelf in first world country tend to be priced to the "sweet spot" of the buyer, with little relation to the cost of production, if any.

The dirt cheap items are probably crap because their price doesn't allow for quality manufacture.

However, expensive items are often targeting the poseur. The type of people who by the most expensive, because, well, if it is expensive it must be quality, right ? Well no. Sometimes it is just the same crap as above, but for 10x the price, so it looks richer.

Remember that sometime, decreasing the price decreases the volume of sale, because the product is not perceived as quality by consumers anymore.

Price is no indication of a good product. It may permit weeding the crap, if the price is unbelievably low, but anything in the medium price range is probably as good an item as something that is expensive but is not recognized for quality otherwise (probably better, even, as it targets value conscious, educated customers, rather than zealots that buy without comparing).

[edirtaynine]

damn. this thread totally made a big deal about something that shouldn't have been this big of a dramatic issue.

[fireline43]

Yea this thread was pretty useless to me unless there was some kind of comparison to stock and road tests. I could care less where its made if it works good.

[edirtaynine]

Originally Posted by The HACK

This reminds me of this one time...

I used to work at a very reputable automotive aftermarket company, based out here in the United States. I was tasked to hold a specific event to reward our loyal customers. I won't go into details, but let's just say it's an event not unlike what you'd get from BMW's ///M school, but only cost the participants $120 for a day. Because, you know, we wanted to really reward some of our most loyal customers.

At the end of the day there were some prizes given away. Some including about $500 worth of parts, some including $500+ worth of DISCOUNTS from our participating vendor(s).

A few months go by, and I get an angry email from the participant who won one of the grand prizes at the end of the day. He demand that we pay him $1,200 for the parts that was promised (we gave him the $500 part), which includes a brand new set of Michelin tires. I told him he was on crack. No where does it state that the Michelins were for free. And even if it did say so, it was clearly marked that "prizes are subject to change."

Sure enough, said participant threatened to sue us and "ruin our reputation on the forums." I told him to go pound sand. He got a $1,200 worth of track day for paying $120, on top of that $500 worth of parts, AND a $500 discount on a new set of tires. Needless to say, said participant went on just about every single forum he could find that has anything remotely to do with our products and started bad-mouthing us. And was making harassing calls to our office daily asking to speak to the President and CEO, and left menacing voicemails on the phone.

Finally my boss caved and told accounts payable to cut him a check for $1,200. I argued until I was blue in the face to NOT GIVE IN TO THESE TERRORIST DEMANDS.

I was overruled. So what did we get out of the entire exchange? The douche on the other end of the phone got paid $1,080 ($1,200 minus his $120 entry fee), we had a sh*t load of threads bad-mouthing us on the forums and not once did the douche apologize or go back to edit his threads, and regardless of what we do, we ended up looking like the bad guys. I was furious. If we're going to look like bad guys anyway, why the f**k give in to his ridiculous demands?

At the end of the day, the lesson learned here is, you either ESCALADE or you acquiesce as the vendor/manufacturer, and the stories you hear on these intarweb forums is NEVER what it seems.

sorry to hear but i totally understand.

there are too many internet dweeb fucknuts that have this twisted sense of entitlement to everything in life. fuck them and all these complaint threads. fools need to get a life and stop tripping on their "power of the internet" bullshit.

[timmyc]

Once BMW moves their manufacturing to China this guy's head is gonna explode

[Meeni]

Done for BMW mottorrad already

[mike-y]

Originally Posted by ken1137

FYI....Germany is well know for quality, but in China there are many companies that are not.

Germany is also well known for making expensive cars that break more than others, and are expensive to maintain and repair.

it's ignorant to assume quality (or lack of) solely because of place of manufacture.

My car wasn't made in Germany, it was made in the South Africa plant, and has been more reliable than many of it's German counterparts.

I've also used chinese made brake rotors many many times on other cars (and probably on my bmw, IDK), and have never had a single issue or failure, even when they got so hot during track days that the rotor hats turned blue.

[Alpina_B3_Lux]

Originally Posted by annalisa_ferri

Finally ECS did the homework…

It took more than 6500 views and 300 replies (and counting) from users all around the world to have substantial questions related to quality and process control answered.

Why this harsh, sometimes boring pin-pall was needed, remains a mystery to me, especially considering that many other manufacturers have this information readily and easily available in the description of similar products. Just as example, have a look to this from PFC – Performance Friction:

“ALL parts are proudly made in the USA”
Reference: http://www.performancefriction.com/about-us/faqs.aspx

“Performance Friction Corporation, 83 Carbon Metallic Highway, Clover, SC 29710, USA fulfills the requirements of the following ISO Technical Specification: ISO/TS 16949 : 2009”

“Performance Friction Corporation, 83 Carbon Metallic Highway, Clover, SC 29710, USA fulfills the requirements of the following ISO Technical Specification: ISO 14001 : 2004”
Reference: http://www.performancefriction.com/p...on-brakes.aspx

As I admitted several times, my error remains: not having asked in advance, and having assumed that ECS does the same as others do: making this product in the USA. But you know, once the confidence is lost, it is lost. That’s it.

I can only hope that ECS would include the infos in his web pages, side by side with a clear statement about the origin of the products. To discover this opening the box and hearing “we would have told you if you only had asked” is not a serious approach.

Thanks to ECS and to who has (positively) contributed to the discussion.
Following ECS, I will not keep the thread alive.

I think ECS has behaved in an exemplary fashion throughout this whole process, even with a customer who is quite obviously being difficult. I wish all vendors here behaved similarly.

I also find the assumption that Asian products as such are likely to be of lower quality quite insulting and discriminatory. While there are certainly products with quality control problems in China or elsewhere, it is simply trivializing things to apply this assumption to any product from that region. 30 years ago people had the same attitude towards cars from Japan...while just a few years later it was obvious that cars from there have far better quality control than anything produced in the US.

As to Performance Friction: I assume that you do not have much of an idea about the cost of their kits. Otherwise you would not compare them to ECS who are playing in a different league. If you want top-notch quality, you'll have to pay for it. To seek cheap products and then complain they're made in countries with low wages is, well, naïve to put it mildly.

Alpina_B3_Lux

[ken1137]

Originally Posted by mike-y

it's ignorant to assume quality (or lack of) solely because of place of manufacture.

Did you read my posts? I didnt say all but MANY in China are suspect to poor quality due to their lack of Process Control Systems (PCS). Do you work in engineering and audit mfg facilities? I have over 20 yrs experience. ignorance ? No, experience. Please feel free to accompany us on our next trip to the outskirts of Shanghai for an audit, then to Germany.

[mike-y]

unless you can tell me exactly which chinese manufacturing plant those rotors came out of, than, yes, it is ignorant to assume they are of poor quality. Now if you go to that particular plant for inspection on your next excursion, then feel free to project an informed opinion on those products. but until then, your opinion is still uninformed, and doesn't hold any more weight than anyone else's on this forum.

[fibonacci]

Agreed that complaining about the source of a product after a purchase, and not addressing or performing any investigation to validate the assumed claim that "China/Taiwan manufacturing=bad", suggests OP just wanted to whine.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by timmyc

Once BMW moves their manufacturing to China this guy's head is gonna explode

They've already done that.

[The HACK]

Story time...

For over 50 years, the company I used to work for prided themselves on "made in America" and have had all manufacturing, machining, packaging, and EVERYTHING done here. While it was a tall order, we've always felt that American engineering is what made the company great, and American build quality is what our customers should get.

Then in the late 199X and early 200X we started seeing a bunch of counterfeit and knock-off products on the market. Our competitors would take our designs, go to China, and have them manufacture our products for cheaper and bring them over here and sell them. And sell a lot of them. It's clearly hurting our bottom line. Company had to contract, people had to be laid off, and at one point a manufacturing process that has upwards of 200 people working shrunk down to ~50.

For a while, we stand by and assume that our products are of better quality and our customers will continue to buy from us because we're made in America and are of better quality, and continue to market so..."Don't buy Chinese knock-offs! They're CRAP! 300 miles down the road it'll EXPLODE and take you and your car with it!" We ended up spending the last bit of cash and leveraged the resources heavily to borrow and BOUGHT our competitor. Then we started to look closely at their knock-offs from China, you know, before we tell them to shove off and stop making our stuff.

And we were shocked that their quality is just as good, and sometimes, BETTER than our own. The material, the machining, and the quality is just amazing, especially considering the money paid to have this produced. The VP of Operations and the VP of Engineering looked at each other and said, "why the f**k are we making this stuff here?" By late 200X, 75% of our parts were made in China and assembled here in the U.S. And the reason why they're assembled here, is we're finding the Chinese plant would make our parts, assemble it, and then sell it to a third party. So we wised up and only have them make the parts, and make them at multiple plants, without any engineering drawing as to how they all get put together.

The big picture part though, was after a few years we looked at the ledger and again was shocked, that despite moving 75% of our manufacturing to China, we were actually spending MORE MONEY on the manufacturing process when it's all said and done, since all the parts had to be assembled here...And instead of being able to enjoy a higher margin due to the lowered manufacturing cost, we were forced to deal with the Chinese manufacturing plant because, if we don't have them made there, they'll just knock off our product and turn it around and sell it for 1/3rd the price here.

So what's the lesson to be learned here? I guess none. But what I will point out is, no matter what you buy now-a-days, they're ALL made in China. 1.5 billion in workforce means sh*t gets done and gets done CHEAP. At the end of the day, companies will be stupid not to source some of their manufacturing from the largest single workforce in the world. Heck, I'll bet if you dig deeper, you'll probably find that over 50% of the parts in your BWM probably came from China one way or another, since the majority of the suppliers BMW deal with, be it Bosch or ZF or any of the tier 1, tier 2 or tier 3 suppliers, ALL get their stuff manufactured there. Maybe they do the assembly in Germany or United States, and by the time it gets to the next step, in the supply chain, nobody will be the wiser.

That, and anyone here that thinks stuff made in China is inferior? Think again. Cheap sh*t made in China is inferior. Expensive stuff made in China? They're probably BETTER made than the most skilled labor can produce here in the U.S. or even in Europe. High-end skill labor in China is BETTER than high-end skilled labor you can find anywhere. The problem with the high-end stuff for import? You can't afford to make enough to drive the cost of logistics down. Especially say, for a product that cost $100 to make? You're not importing multiple container-full of it and tying up 8, or 9 figure in cash for the inventory to make the per-unit cost reasonable for import. Where it makes sense, is if you're importing $100,000 worth of springs and sprockets and stuff that comes in several huge containers, that you ultimately assemble here yourself into thousands of units.

Like I said. If any of you wants to dig deeper, you'd be SHOCKED at how much of your BMW comes from China. SHOCKED.

[achien]

what kind of world do you people live in?

it is almost impossible not to find anything made in China (Vietnam, Thailand, or other SEA countries ...) now?!?

on the odd occasions you find items made in Italy, France, or Japan, you will be paying at least 4 times as much (if not more).

[Florida Boy]

Mine are made in china. Had them for awhile and love them. Funny thing is i paid $235 for the rotors and pads and some vendors sell them for $500. Almost everything is outsourced now days. OP put your rotors on and you will like them come back and tell us how much you like your Chinese product

[timmyc]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Story time...

For over 50 years, the company I used to work for prided themselves on "made in America" and have had all manufacturing, machining, packaging, and EVERYTHING done here. While it was a tall order, we've always felt that American engineering is what made the company great, and American build quality is what our customers should get.

Then in the late 199X and early 200X we started seeing a bunch of counterfeit and knock-off products on the market. Our competitors would take our designs, go to China, and have them manufacture our products for cheaper and bring them over here and sell them. And sell a lot of them. It's clearly hurting our bottom line. Company had to contract, people had to be laid off, and at one point a manufacturing process that has upwards of 200 people working shrunk down to ~50.

For a while, we stand by and assume that our products are of better quality and our customers will continue to buy from us because we're made in America and are of better quality, and continue to market so..."Don't buy Chinese knock-offs! They're CRAP! 300 miles down the road it'll EXPLODE and take you and your car with it!" We ended up spending the last bit of cash and leveraged the resources heavily to borrow and BOUGHT our competitor. Then we started to look closely at their knock-offs from China, you know, before we tell them to shove off and stop making our stuff.

And we were shocked that their quality is just as good, and sometimes, BETTER than our own. The material, the machining, and the quality is just amazing, especially considering the money paid to have this produced. The VP of Operations and the VP of Engineering looked at each other and said, "why the f**k are we making this stuff here?" By late 200X, 75% of our parts were made in China and assembled here in the U.S. And the reason why they're assembled here, is we're finding the Chinese plant would make our parts, assemble it, and then sell it to a third party. So we wised up and only have them make the parts, and make them at multiple plants, without any engineering drawing as to how they all get put together.

The big picture part though, was after a few years we looked at the ledger and again was shocked, that despite moving 75% of our manufacturing to China, we were actually spending MORE MONEY on the manufacturing process when it's all said and done, since all the parts had to be assembled here...And instead of being able to enjoy a higher margin due to the lowered manufacturing cost, we were forced to deal with the Chinese manufacturing plant because, if we don't have them made there, they'll just knock off our product and turn it around and sell it for 1/3rd the price here.

So what's the lesson to be learned here? I guess none. But what I will point out is, no matter what you buy now-a-days, they're ALL made in China. 1.5 billion in workforce means sh*t gets done and gets done CHEAP. At the end of the day, companies will be stupid not to source some of their manufacturing from the largest single workforce in the world. Heck, I'll bet if you dig deeper, you'll probably find that over 50% of the parts in your BWM probably came from China one way or another, since the majority of the suppliers BMW deal with, be it Bosch or ZF or any of the tier 1, tier 2 or tier 3 suppliers, ALL get their stuff manufactured there. Maybe they do the assembly in Germany or United States, and by the time it gets to the next step, in the supply chain, nobody will be the wiser.

That, and anyone here that thinks stuff made in China is inferior? Think again. Cheap sh*t made in China is inferior. Expensive stuff made in China? They're probably BETTER made than the most skilled labor can produce here in the U.S. or even in Europe. High-end skill labor in China is BETTER than high-end skilled labor you can find anywhere. The problem with the high-end stuff for import? You can't afford to make enough to drive the cost of logistics down. Especially say, for a product that cost $100 to make? You're not importing multiple container-full of it and tying up 8, or 9 figure in cash for the inventory to make the per-unit cost reasonable for import. Where it makes sense, is if you're importing $100,000 worth of springs and sprockets and stuff that comes in several huge containers, that you ultimately assemble here yourself into thousands of units.

Like I said. If any of you wants to dig deeper, you'd be SHOCKED at how much of your BMW comes from China. SHOCKED.

I was specifically referring to when BMW builds all their cars in China with the joint venture they have with Brilliance...I actually got a call about a job offer in a factory there but turned it down for gf reasons...

[DSC_OFF]

I've worked with ECS over the last 8 years from my VW days till now. And to be honest, they are great for sourcing oem parts but that's pretty much it. All their in-house products & kits aren't that great, ie their oil drain plug among others. Stick to oe or reputable brands like Stoptech, Brembo, etc.

[cleex024]

again i have the ecs slotted rotors that have that "special" coating on them and mine still are not rusting and i have had them on for like 6 monhts now. to me they are quality parts...no warping either and i have done a couple hard track days.

[335ivargas]

I agree jus cuz a product is from china doesnt mean its garbage. As a matter of fact I recently purchased a ignition coilover for my older 02 3 series. And the product was actually made in china. And this was a offical bmw autobahn dealer!!! Since I paid 100$ for it figured it was legit but I guess eveything now adays is from china.

[sirantsE90]

So were these installed? If so how do you like them so far? I want these, just curious how they are holding up

[edirtaynine]

Originally Posted by Florida Boy

Mine are made in china. Had them for awhile and love them. Funny thing is i paid $235 for the rotors and pads and some vendors sell them for $500. Almost everything is outsourced now days. OP put your rotors on and you will like them come back and tell us how much you like your Chinese product

mine look exactly the same... including the wheel and tire. lol