E90Post
 


 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Meth with MHD



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      09-03-2015, 04:22 PM   #1
Chitown335i
Private First Class
10
Rep
191
Posts

Drives: 2007 Smoky Graphite 335i
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Joliet, IL

iTrader: (0)

Meth with MHD

Is anyone using meth with MHD? What kit do you recommend. Looking at adding it to my setup
__________________
07 335i...M2 exhaust...Macht Schnell DP's...VRSF 7" FMIC...MMP inlets....VRSF Chargpipe with HKS BOV....MHD w/WedgeTuning.... RB Stealths!!!....MFactory LSD...Stage 2 Fuel It...N20 map sensor....265/40/18 Sticky Mickeys in the rear
Appreciate 0
      09-03-2015, 05:41 PM   #2
RVS
Colonel
RVS's Avatar
United_States
81
Rep
2,553
Posts

Drives: N54
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: New York

iTrader: (13)

What kit are you looking into?
Appreciate 0
      09-03-2015, 05:55 PM   #3
Chitown335i
Private First Class
10
Rep
191
Posts

Drives: 2007 Smoky Graphite 335i
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Joliet, IL

iTrader: (0)

I'm not sure. I don't need something crazy. I'm really just looking for it to supplement my hpfp until I can get port injection. Not ideal but it's what I can do for now.
Appreciate 0
      09-03-2015, 05:55 PM   #4
Chitown335i
Private First Class
10
Rep
191
Posts

Drives: 2007 Smoky Graphite 335i
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Joliet, IL

iTrader: (0)

Just wondering what other guys are using since bms meth kit usually is used with jb4. And I have mhd
Appreciate 0
      09-03-2015, 06:05 PM   #5
csu87
Brigadier General
csu87's Avatar
1529
Rep
3,141
Posts

Drives: 09 335xi
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Northern Colorado

iTrader: (0)

any kit with an external controller will work.
Appreciate 0
      09-03-2015, 06:05 PM   #6
TheYuriPanda
Lieutenant
TheYuriPanda's Avatar
35
Rep
400
Posts

Drives: 335i XDrive E90 2010
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Colorado

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chitown335i
Just wondering what other guys are using since bms meth kit usually is used with jb4. And I have mhd
Jb4+ bms meth kit+ MHD flash, imo best setup for those without PI, even with PI,
__________________
Appreciate 0
      09-03-2015, 06:36 PM   #7
Chitown335i
Private First Class
10
Rep
191
Posts

Drives: 2007 Smoky Graphite 335i
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Joliet, IL

iTrader: (0)

I got rid of my jb4. I had too many issues with it straight tune now. A kit with an external controller means it has a failsafe right.
Appreciate 0
      09-03-2015, 08:30 PM   #8
RVS
Colonel
RVS's Avatar
United_States
81
Rep
2,553
Posts

Drives: N54
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: New York

iTrader: (13)

I'm in the market for meth. Just upgraded my charge pipe.

Fail safe is additional i think. External controller is what controls the mist..can set it at a certain boost and etc

I think I'll go with snow performance. Tank will be located in the trunk as well as the motor. Started to read about windshield kits but not as safe though
Appreciate 0
      09-03-2015, 09:23 PM   #9
LQQKOUT
First Lieutenant
35
Rep
350
Posts

Drives: 335XI
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: United States

iTrader: (4)

I use a snowperformance kit that activated at 10PSI.
Appreciate 0
      09-03-2015, 09:52 PM   #10
cwarren
Captain
cwarren's Avatar
29
Rep
707
Posts

Drives: 08 e92
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: portland

iTrader: (1)

Hfs4
Appreciate 0
      09-03-2015, 10:01 PM   #11
Chitown335i
Private First Class
10
Rep
191
Posts

Drives: 2007 Smoky Graphite 335i
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Joliet, IL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LQQKOUT View Post
I use a snowperformance kit that activated at 10PSI.
Does it come with a controller. Or what do you use for it to know when to kick in.
Appreciate 0
      09-03-2015, 10:44 PM   #12
LQQKOUT
First Lieutenant
35
Rep
350
Posts

Drives: 335XI
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: United States

iTrader: (4)

I use a pressure switch. I actually have the snow performance Progressive VC-20 Controller FS if anyone is interested.
Appreciate 0
      09-04-2015, 06:21 AM   #13
3000GT MR
Major
3000GT MR's Avatar
United_States
148
Rep
1,396
Posts

Drives: 09 335i/3000gt vr4
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Sav GA

iTrader: (6)

HSF4 is the best of the best when it comes to the N54 meth/water injection. It was actually developed mainly for the N54. It uses HP fuel, rpm, boost, and IDC to calculate precise control. They're is a bunch of fail safes along with onboard diagnostics to make sure everything is working correctly. It takes a little bit, defiantly more than other kits to set up but its well worth it. I've used just about every kit and controller out there and nothing compares.
__________________
Have a single turbo and/or tired of burning up O2 sensors? Ask me about the new ADV O2 sensor retro kits!
335i 2010 e92 M-sport Mods: VM Top mount 6466, Aquamist HSF4 w/custom direct port. VRSF IC + Exhaust
335i 2009 e90 665RWHP VFF900 ST RIP .
Appreciate 1
      09-04-2015, 10:55 AM   #14
csu87
Brigadier General
csu87's Avatar
1529
Rep
3,141
Posts

Drives: 09 335xi
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Northern Colorado

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chitown335i View Post
I got rid of my jb4. I had too many issues with it straight tune now. A kit with an external controller means it has a failsafe right.
most have failsafes, but they fall in comparison to the JB4 Meth Failsafes...
Appreciate 0
      09-04-2015, 11:13 AM   #15
fmonteiro444
Captain
fmonteiro444's Avatar
20
Rep
634
Posts

Drives: 09 335i X-Drive
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: NJ

iTrader: (5)

Garage List
If you only use meth for cooling, then you don't even really need a fail safe.
__________________
09 e92 335xi AT - RB's w/VTT inlets, MHD Flash w/ e50, AFE Stage 2 Intake, VRSF CP w/HKS BOV, VRSF 7" FMIC. downpipes, Alpina Flash
Appreciate 0
      09-04-2015, 12:17 PM   #16
ferocity02
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
176
Rep
1,602
Posts

Drives: 2007 E90 335i
Join Date: May 2014
Location: USA

iTrader: (7)

Can you use an OTS MHD map with meth? I was under the impression that the tune had to be modified to account for the fact that you are injecting more fuel.
__________________
2007 E90 335i Pre-LCI
Appreciate 0
      09-04-2015, 12:45 PM   #17
Jeff@TopGearSolutions
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor
Jeff@TopGearSolutions's Avatar
United_States
1204
Rep
34,646
Posts


Drives: C6 Z06, 09 335i, 10 335xi
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: www.TopGearSolutions.com

iTrader: (33)

Lot of people like the Aquamist HFS4 and it's no doubt a high quality kit but you can get away with any kit.

They are all universal in nature.

Pump, tank lines, nozzle and sensors.

Between coolingmist, devils own, snow performance or AEM they all "Spray" methanol.

The controllers depending on your budget will make the difference.

Some only have progressive controllers, not really necessary on this platform.

Others like AEM offer optional flow sensors and gauges.

With the right setup with AEM it will be the closest thing to Aquamist in function.

If anyone can throw some insight on how you wire up the FSB from BMS to a flash tune that would be interesting to know for future reference to the community as I didn't know it was possible, personally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ferocity02 View Post
Can you use an OTS MHD map with meth? I was under the impression that the tune had to be modified to account for the fact that you are injecting more fuel.
Depends on how large of a nozzle and mixture.

Methanol adds fuel so it may run too rich but it also adds octane and water so it has cooling benefits. It depends on how you want your methanol setup to run.

A methanol kit can be catered to any need. It's all about the mixture, nozzles and control.

You can spray a small nozzle on a bone stock car with just water and get cooling benefits. Add a splash of methanol (Say 20%) and reap the benefits of the bump in octane too.

Methanol is confusing to most newcomers because it's so flexible and that is because it can be catered to any specific setup, you just need to know what you want out of it, the latter usually being the problem.

Do you want maximum performance benefits?
Cooling only?
Octane only?
Additional fuel ceiling?
__________________
|Facebook Discounts||Evolution Racewerks| |Active Autowerke| |ETS| |Burger Tuning| |Cobb| |Mishimoto||VRSF| |AWE| |Wagner|

|HPB LED Angel Eyes| |VTT| |KW| |Spec| |ST Coilovers| |Koni| |Bilstein| |Borla| |Magnaflow| |AFE| |Shifteck| |Injen|Coding / PPK / Alpina
Appreciate 0
      09-04-2015, 01:04 PM   #18
fmonteiro444
Captain
fmonteiro444's Avatar
20
Rep
634
Posts

Drives: 09 335i X-Drive
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: NJ

iTrader: (5)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions View Post
Lot of people like the Aquamist HFS4 and it's no doubt a high quality kit but you can get away with any kit.

They are all universal in nature.

Pump, tank lines, nozzle and sensors.

Between coolingmist, devils own, snow performance or AEM they all "Spray" methanol.

The controllers depending on your budget will make the difference.

Some only have progressive controllers, not really necessary on this platform.

Others like AEM offer optional flow sensors and gauges.

With the right setup with AEM it will be the closest thing to Aquamist in function.

If anyone can throw some insight on how you wire up the FSB from BMS to a flash tune that would be interesting to know for future reference to the community as I didn't know it was possible, personally.



Depends on how large of a nozzle and mixture.

Methanol adds fuel so it may run too rich but it also adds octane and water so it has cooling benefits. It depends on how you want your methanol setup to run.

A methanol kit can be catered to any need. It's all about the mixture, nozzles and control.

You can spray a small nozzle on a bone stock car with just water and get cooling benefits. Add a splash of methanol (Say 20%) and reap the benefits of the bump in octane too.

Methanol is confusing to most newcomers because it's so flexible and that is because it can be catered to any specific setup, you just need to know what you want out of it, the latter usually being the problem.

Do you want maximum performance benefits?
Cooling only?
Octane only?
Additional fuel ceiling?
What he said
__________________
09 e92 335xi AT - RB's w/VTT inlets, MHD Flash w/ e50, AFE Stage 2 Intake, VRSF CP w/HKS BOV, VRSF 7" FMIC. downpipes, Alpina Flash
Appreciate 0
      09-04-2015, 01:13 PM   #19
ferocity02
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
176
Rep
1,602
Posts

Drives: 2007 E90 335i
Join Date: May 2014
Location: USA

iTrader: (7)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions View Post
Depends on how large of a nozzle and mixture.

Methanol adds fuel so it may run too rich but it also adds octane and water so it has cooling benefits. It depends on how you want your methanol setup to run.

A methanol kit can be catered to any need. It's all about the mixture, nozzles and control.

You can spray a small nozzle on a bone stock car with just water and get cooling benefits. Add a splash of methanol (Say 20%) and reap the benefits of the bump in octane too.

Methanol is confusing to most newcomers because it's so flexible and that is because it can be catered to any specific setup, you just need to know what you want out of it, the latter usually being the problem.

Do you want maximum performance benefits?
Cooling only?
Octane only?
Additional fuel ceiling?
I've used methanol injection on my turbo Silverado, but on that platform you had to tune the VE tables to account for the meth injection, i.e. lean out the tables in the areas where meth was flowing. At WOT it's open loop so there's no wideband feedback like we have on the N54. It was a PITA to do honestly, seemed to be very inconsistent especially during transient/spool.

I was curious if the DME will be able to compensate for the injection of meth using the STFT's fast enough to not run too rich.
__________________
2007 E90 335i Pre-LCI
Appreciate 0
      09-04-2015, 01:19 PM   #20
Jeff@TopGearSolutions
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor
Jeff@TopGearSolutions's Avatar
United_States
1204
Rep
34,646
Posts


Drives: C6 Z06, 09 335i, 10 335xi
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: www.TopGearSolutions.com

iTrader: (33)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ferocity02 View Post
I've used methanol injection on my turbo Silverado, but on that platform you had to tune the VE tables to account for the meth injection, i.e. lean out the tables in the areas where meth was flowing. At WOT it's open loop so there's no wideband feedback like we have on the N54. It was a PITA to do honestly, seemed to be very inconsistent especially during transient/spool.

I was curious if the DME will be able to compensate for the injection of meth using the STFT's fast enough to not run too rich.
This platform is a lot more forgiving. Especially since AFR can kind of be all over the place with no issue and minimal HP gains since it's direct injection. So 11.0 - 12.5 and there really is no difference as far as power.

With a 50/50 mix a M7 or M10 nozzle is plenty on this platform. You could pretty much spray and pray at an 8 PSI trigger and be good to go.

But from a conservative approach, flow sensors and failsafes are recommended. To really real the benefits of the methanol the OTS maps won't suffice and that's just because you didn't up the boost or ignition timing. So to reap the benefits, you'd want to add some boost and you can really up the ignition timing.

Back in the day i ran 10 degrees ignition across the board, ramping up to 12 at 6000 RPM. No knock, no correction, pulled like a train. That was a M10 at 50/50/ I later switched to M5 and M7 for better atomization and just ran a little more meth for safety, mated to the ER CP Tial and 2 meth bung. I used a basic Cooling mist pump, devils own tank, lines and upgraded to a solenoid. This was in the infancy of the platform and that's why I had two companies products.
__________________
|Facebook Discounts||Evolution Racewerks| |Active Autowerke| |ETS| |Burger Tuning| |Cobb| |Mishimoto||VRSF| |AWE| |Wagner|

|HPB LED Angel Eyes| |VTT| |KW| |Spec| |ST Coilovers| |Koni| |Bilstein| |Borla| |Magnaflow| |AFE| |Shifteck| |Injen|Coding / PPK / Alpina
Appreciate 0
      09-04-2015, 01:33 PM   #21
ferocity02
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
176
Rep
1,602
Posts

Drives: 2007 E90 335i
Join Date: May 2014
Location: USA

iTrader: (7)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions View Post
But from a conservative approach, flow sensors and failsafes are recommended. To really real the benefits of the methanol the OTS maps won't suffice and that's just because you didn't up the boost or ignition timing. So to reap the benefits, you'd want to add some boost and you can really up the ignition timing.
The thought could, as an example, be to run the OTS MHD E40 map but with 91 octane and spraying some combination of meth/water.

I'm running the E40 map now but with actual E40 in the tank. Unfortunately, the local E85 pump is not very close. And I don't like the idea of having to make guesses when doing ethanol mixtures. The fuel-it ethanol sensor would help with that though. But overall I think running some meth injection and letting the DME figure out the fueling via trims would be very simple.
__________________
2007 E90 335i Pre-LCI
Appreciate 0
      09-04-2015, 01:35 PM   #22
Jeff@TopGearSolutions
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor
Jeff@TopGearSolutions's Avatar
United_States
1204
Rep
34,646
Posts


Drives: C6 Z06, 09 335i, 10 335xi
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: www.TopGearSolutions.com

iTrader: (33)

Some more on setups:

If you are just going to spray and pray (no failsafe or sensor). Pick up a 1 gallon tank and stage 1 kits from coolingmist or devils own, set the trigger to flow at 7-8 psi with an M10 nozzle and you are good to go.

If you want a failsafe, coolingmist offers a nice one with a gauge and so does AEM.

I'm not 100% familiar on how the coolingmist flow sensor an failsafe works so that might be a questions for them if you want to run it.

I know the AEM, coupled with their aem flow sensor and gauge will allow you to monitor flow and you will set the boost solenoids to bleed boost when methanol isn't flowing as the failsafe.

The AEM system is very thorough in nature. It allows for a lot of customization through their programming.

A lot of people recommend aquamist and that is because they do use very high quality products. People prefer their lines, nozzles and fitting but most importantly their flowsensor and failsafe.

However, on a budget, AEM would be my next choice as it can be had for under $800 all in whereas the Aquamist with 2 gallon tank is upwards of $1200+

Keep in mind a pray and spray setup can be had for under $350, typically for those who just want extra cooling but it can make the same power as any other setup, it just won't have the failsafes.

Keeping failsafes in mind the biggest problem with some is that they cant handle mixture over 75% for too long. This is a hit or miss subject. Some people have no problem running them with 100% methanol, others had them fail at 50/50. Luck of the draw but the Aquamist seems to be robust and I haven't heard too many complaints in AEM.

The other thing about failsafes is if you set up your methanol kit properly it's not needed. That also goes for when you are putting in new methanol in your tank.

The reasons failsafes are needed is either a failure of component like the solenoid or pump or clogged nozzles.

Typically nozzles only get clogged from debris. So if you are filling your methanol tank up in a clean environment, generally you are ok.

I did have a few episodes of clogged nozzles and it was because when the tank was tapped for the lines, small plastic bits remained, clogging my nozzle.

I tell all my customers to run failsafes but i personally didn't for nearly 3 years. The good thing about this car is it's pretty smart so when the methanol wasn't flowing ignition did drop, albeit not the smartest approach to tuning. Riding the knock sensor or relying on the knock sensor is not the proper way to spray methanol. So keep that in mind.

If anyone has any questions, I'm more then happy to help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ferocity02 View Post
The thought could, as an example, be to run the OTS MHD E40 map but with 91 octane and spraying some combination of meth/water.

I'm running the E40 map now but with actual E40 in the tank. Unfortunately, the local E85 pump is not very close. And I don't like the idea of having to make guesses when doing ethanol mixtures. The fuel-it ethanol sensor would help with that though. But overall I think running some meth injection and letting the DME figure out the fueling via trims would be very simple.
Well basically if you are running a pump 91 or 93 map and want to add methanol for a bump in power, running an E30-E40 map would be the best approach. In fact, it would leave some headroom on the table as the methanol injection would offer cooling (air charge + combustion) and octane, where as E85 would just offer octane and a slightly lower combustion temp.
__________________
|Facebook Discounts||Evolution Racewerks| |Active Autowerke| |ETS| |Burger Tuning| |Cobb| |Mishimoto||VRSF| |AWE| |Wagner|

|HPB LED Angel Eyes| |VTT| |KW| |Spec| |ST Coilovers| |Koni| |Bilstein| |Borla| |Magnaflow| |AFE| |Shifteck| |Injen|Coding / PPK / Alpina
Appreciate 0
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:31 AM.




e90post
e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST