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      08-25-2016, 03:05 PM   #1
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335d Engine Tapping + Drivetrain Vibration

Hi All,

I'm hoping some of you very knowledgeable people can help me with two separate issues we are experiencing with our much loved UK e92 pre-LCI 335d (2008) that are driving me mad.

Engine Tapping / Ticking
Firstly, there is a light pronounced tapping / ticking sound at idle that I am unable to locate the source of. I have had both the main belt & air-con belt off to rule out ancillaries, pulley's and tensioners and the noise remains. The car has covered 60k miles and is extremely well maintained - every service item and fluid has been replaced along with new water pump, thermostats (main & EGR), crankshaft pulley, swirl flaps blanked, new breather and entire vacuum hoses replaced. We also have a 2007 e60 LCI 525d (3.0d single turbo) that's covered 140k miles and my dad has a 2010 LCI 635d that's covered 45k miles, both of which don't do this noise so I know there is an issue.

The noise is very similar to the following clip that I have found on YouTube - note this is not my car but the noise is the same, mine is maybe a little less pronounced if anything:

https://youtu.be/x9wMU7Ws0zc

Any ideas....I have considered the vacuum pump and exhaust manifold leaking, but as the noise 'appears' to be coming from the front of the engine I am fearing something timing chain related which I know is not common on these (M57N2 Engine). Noise is the same cold and warm and never gets any worse but equally never goes - it's always there at idle, albeit only noticeable from outside the car. The car sounds fine when the revs are raised even slightly and pulls / idles extremely well! I have used a mechanics stethoscope and still cannot locate the source of the noise

Drivetrain Vibration
Secondly, under low rpm, I'd say less than 1700 rpm and in a high gear I can feel a slight vibration / resonance under full load. It's not too excessive but is still noticeable - as a precaution and a total waste of time and money as it happens - I have changed both engine mounts, gearbox mounts and vacuum hoses to the engine mounts which has made no difference. I also recently changed the gearbox fluid, filter and various seals which has also made no difference (gearbox changes very well though so good preventative maintenance anyway).

Any suggestions - early sign's of wear to the Giubo / flex disc / rubber UJ on the propshaft and / or the propshaft centre bearing? I notice there is a separate part number on realOEM for the LCI e92's which I believe uses an updated Giubo / flex disc made from aluminium rather than the usual rubber one listed for pre-LCI cars - anyone upgraded to one?

Do any of you notice any similar 'vibrations' / 'resonance'? Dropping a gear always removes the vibration and equally as the revs rise above around 1700 rpm the vibration disappears anyway. For reference I am referring to the car being on a 100% standard map, so this is definitely nothing to do with an excessive engine map!

Sorry for the long post but thought it better to provide full details. I would be most grateful if anyone could help me identify the source of my two issues. The car is 'perfect' otherwise!

Last edited by Palmo; 08-25-2016 at 03:18 PM.
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      08-26-2016, 08:27 AM   #2
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No one got any thoughts at all? I would be really grateful of people's opinions - I'm getting frustrated with both the noise and vibration.
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      08-26-2016, 09:16 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palmo
Hi All,

I'm hoping some of you very knowledgeable people can help me with two separate issues we are experiencing with our much loved UK e92 pre-LCI 335d (2008) that are driving me mad.

Engine Tapping / Ticking
Firstly, there is a light pronounced tapping / ticking sound at idle that I am unable to locate the source of. I have had both the main belt & air-con belt off to rule out ancillaries, pulley's and tensioners and the noise remains. The car has covered 60k miles and is extremely well maintained - every service item and fluid has been replaced along with new water pump, thermostats (main & EGR), crankshaft pulley, swirl flaps blanked, new breather and entire vacuum hoses replaced. We also have a 2007 e60 LCI 525d (3.0d single turbo) that's covered 140k miles and my dad has a 2010 LCI 635d that's covered 45k miles, both of which don't do this noise so I know there is an issue.

The noise is very similar to the following clip that I have found on YouTube - note this is not my car but the noise is the same, mine is maybe a little less pronounced if anything:

https://youtu.be/x9wMU7Ws0zc

Any ideas....I have considered the vacuum pump and exhaust manifold leaking, but as the noise 'appears' to be coming from the front of the engine I am fearing something timing chain related which I know is not common on these (M57N2 Engine). Noise is the same cold and warm and never gets any worse but equally never goes - it's always there at idle, albeit only noticeable from outside the car. The car sounds fine when the revs are raised even slightly and pulls / idles extremely well! I have used a mechanics stethoscope and still cannot locate the source of the noise

Drivetrain Vibration
Secondly, under low rpm, I'd say less than 1700 rpm and in a high gear I can feel a slight vibration / resonance under full load. It's not too excessive but is still noticeable - as a precaution and a total waste of time and money as it happens - I have changed both engine mounts, gearbox mounts and vacuum hoses to the engine mounts which has made no difference. I also recently changed the gearbox fluid, filter and various seals which has also made no difference (gearbox changes very well though so good preventative maintenance anyway).

Any suggestions - early sign's of wear to the Giubo / flex disc / rubber UJ on the propshaft and / or the propshaft centre bearing? I notice there is a separate part number on realOEM for the LCI e92's which I believe uses an updated Giubo / flex disc made from aluminium rather than the usual rubber one listed for pre-LCI cars - anyone upgraded to one?

Do any of you notice any similar 'vibrations' / 'resonance'? Dropping a gear always removes the vibration and equally as the revs rise above around 1700 rpm the vibration disappears anyway. For reference I am referring to the car being on a 100% standard map, so this is definitely nothing to do with an excessive engine map!

Sorry for the long post but thought it better to provide full details. I would be most grateful if anyone could help me identify the source of my two issues. The car is 'perfect' otherwise!
I think I am having the same vibration issue, I was gonna post about it my self too. Car is getting a walnut blast this week so asked them to check all bushings in the back. Waiting to hear back.
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      08-26-2016, 09:27 AM   #4
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This forum was asked about the ticking noise a while back but I don't recall anyone having a legit answer to help you. On the drivetrain vibration front, I know of atleast one guy that changed Guibo and it was the problem. Another poster wrote a nice DIY on Guibo change so go look for this and read his symptoms and see if they match your's. People have switched to the newer aluminum Guibo but after close inspection, they weren't over enamored with its construction. This is 2nd hand info though. I'll try to find the Guibo thread(s). Good luck.
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      08-26-2016, 10:48 AM   #5
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Are you sure the ticking isn't just the high pressure direct injection system? : They are quite noisy, specially with your cover removed.

Could you post a video for further details?
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      08-26-2016, 11:31 AM   #6
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He mentioned he has another M57 (as well as his dad) that doesn't do it. I presume the other 2 had cover pulled off for fair comparison. I listened and agree it sounds like coming from front of engine (but now I recall this wasn't his car and was an example of same concern he has).
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      08-26-2016, 11:32 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iaro View Post
I think I am having the same vibration issue, I was gonna post about it my self too. Car is getting a walnut blast this week so asked them to check all bushings in the back. Waiting to hear back.
Sorry to hear you have a similar vibration - please do post what is found when it's checked over.
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      08-26-2016, 11:36 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BB_cuda View Post
This forum was asked about the ticking noise a while back but I don't recall anyone having a legit answer to help you. On the drivetrain vibration front, I know of atleast one guy that changed Guibo and it was the problem. Another poster wrote a nice DIY on Guibo change so go look for this and read his symptoms and see if they match your's. People have switched to the newer aluminum Guibo but after close inspection, they weren't over enamored with its construction. This is 2nd hand info though. I'll try to find the Guibo thread(s). Good luck.
Hhhhmmm - the ticking is frustrating, certainly not major but very annoying as I can't pinpoint what is causing it and I hate to think it is something more serious 'developing'.

I will have a search for the DIY on Giubo change to see what the symptoms were by comparison - thanks for pointing me in the right direct. I know how to do the change as it happens as I have changed the one on my e60 525d previously but didn't get these symptoms, maybe because that is manual? Interesting that the newer aluminium Giubo fitted to the LCI's may not be an overall improvement in design then?
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      08-26-2016, 11:46 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kydiesel35 View Post
Are you sure the ticking isn't just the high pressure direct injection system? : They are quite noisy, specially with your cover removed.

Could you post a video for further details?
I am 100% sure the noise isn't 'normal'. It isn't 'major' but certainly not there on other similar cars for e.g. I also have an e60 525d which uses essentially the same engine, albeit detuned and with only a single turbo - this doesn't do it, also my dad has a 635d which has the exact same engine set-up and that doesn't do it either.

The noise can be heard the most from the front resonating through the grille with the bonnet / hood closed.

I did put a link in the original post to a video - not my car, but the sound is very similar - link re-attached below.

https://youtu.be/x9wMU7Ws0zc
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      08-26-2016, 11:57 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BB_cuda View Post
He mentioned he has another M57 (as well as his dad) that doesn't do it. I presume the other 2 had cover pulled off for fair comparison. I listened and agree it sounds like coming from front of engine (but now I recall this wasn't his car and was an example of same concern he has).
Yes the other two M57 N2 engines I have access to definitely don't make the same noise. I've had the covers off all three engines at various points - all are much noisier with the covers removed as can be expected and yes I can hear the injectors and the like making the usual noises. However, there is definitely a different 'ticking' / 'tapping' on this particular engine.

I'm not aware of chains typically failing on the M57 engines - certainly not like on the N47's and maybe N57's but doesn't mean they can't go I guess which is what I am really wanting to rule out. The car has only covered 60k miles. We have owned the car for little over a year and I have done 4 oil changes in that time as part of my extended maintenance which I usually do when buying a second hand car in an attempt to make sure the engine is clean internally without using harsh flushing chemicals. I am running it on the recommended Castrol LL04 0w30 (as the other two cars are running on) but have wondered if switching to Castrol LL04 5w30 may be of benefit?
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      08-26-2016, 12:05 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palmo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iaro View Post
I think I am having the same vibration issue, I was gonna post about it my self too. Car is getting a walnut blast this week so asked them to check all bushings in the back. Waiting to hear back.
Sorry to hear you have a similar vibration - please do post what is found when it's checked over.
Will do
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      08-26-2016, 12:15 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iaro View Post
Will do
After I have already changed the engine & gearbox mounts, engine mount vacuum lines and gearbox fluid, my next logical step seems to be the Giubo and Propshaft Centre Bearing. Just wondering if to go with the standard rubber item or upgrade to the later aluminium one as referred to in this thread:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...bo+oem+upgrade
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      08-26-2016, 12:20 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palmo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iaro View Post
Will do
After I have already changed the engine & gearbox mounts, engine mount vacuum lines and gearbox fluid, my next logical step seems to be the Giubo and Propshaft Centre Bearing. Just wondering if to go with the standard rubber item or upgrade to the later aluminium one as referred to in this thread:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...bo+oem+upgrade
I have talked to a friend of mine that owned multiple 3 series cars and had it replaced on 2 of them. He said definitely go with new upgraded version and not the rubber one.
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      08-26-2016, 02:36 PM   #14
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Surprised no one's mentioned it yet, but you should NOT be at full load before 1700 rpm's. The resonance is called 'lugging', and it's really hard on the bearings.

The rule is never go full throttle until you're past the engine's torque peak. Use smooth, progressive throttle application, and never 'mash' it to the floor unless it's a life/death emergency.
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      08-26-2016, 03:30 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicklockard View Post
Surprised no one's mentioned it yet, but you should NOT be at full load before 1700 rpm's. The resonance is called 'lugging', and it's really hard on the bearings.

The rule is never go full throttle until you're past the engine's torque peak. Use smooth, progressive throttle application, and never 'mash' it to the floor unless it's a life/death emergency.
With a manual car I totally agree that I would not be driving at such low rpm with full throttle / full load as that would be 'labouring' the engine which is what I guess you are calling 'lugging'?

However, the 335d - even in standard form without a remap is a completely different scenario altogether as a result of the very high torque and auto gearbox (which you will know if you own one or have driven one) - plus at no time am I mashing it to the floor when it does this, if I did it would kick down and actually prevent the vibration.

I'll give you an example.....near where I live there is a road with a 60mph limit down a steep hill where the car goes into 6th gear just under 60 mph, the road immediately levels out and begins to go up a steep hill and the speed limit increases to 70mph, the car is probably pulling 1500-1600 rpm at that point. If I then give it full throttle it will immediately kick down (as you would expect) with no vibration. However, if I give it say 60-80% throttle, the car just pulls like a train but without kicking down (maximum torque is obviously available from that point onwards). It is in these scenarios that the vibration is felt. The car has the torque available and BMW programmed it to hold the gear so I do not believe this is being driven wrongly - why would I give it more power than I needed to force a kick-down or equally manually downshift or reduce the throttle and slow down? Again it is not a major vibration but one that is felt and is annoying and didn't used to be there. My dad's 635d in the same situation responds exactly the same in terms of holding the gear but does not vibrate. There is clearly something wrong here. I have driven these cars (525d, 335d & 635d thousands upon thousands of miles) and there is definitely something wrong here.
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      08-26-2016, 03:34 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iaro View Post
I have talked to a friend of mine that owned multiple 3 series cars and had it replaced on 2 of them. He said definitely go with new upgraded version and not the rubber one.
OK. I am definitely considering changing the Giubo to one of these along with a new propshaft centre bearing.
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      08-26-2016, 07:03 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palmo View Post
Yes the other two M57 N2 engines I have access to definitely don't make the same noise. I've had the covers off all three engines at various points - all are much noisier with the covers removed as can be expected and yes I can hear the injectors and the like making the usual noises. However, there is definitely a different 'ticking' / 'tapping' on this particular engine.

I'm not aware of chains typically failing on the M57 engines - certainly not like on the N47's and maybe N57's but doesn't mean they can't go I guess which is what I am really wanting to rule out. The car has only covered 60k miles. We have owned the car for little over a year and I have done 4 oil changes in that time as part of my extended maintenance which I usually do when buying a second hand car in an attempt to make sure the engine is clean internally without using harsh flushing chemicals. I am running it on the recommended Castrol LL04 0w30 (as the other two cars are running on) but have wondered if switching to Castrol LL04 5w30 may be of benefit?

A couple people on here including me have had loose exhaust manifold nuts which can cause ticking. 4 of mine were loose. A couple are tough to get to. I had a whistle under hard acceleration due to this also. Any soot around your manifold?
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      08-26-2016, 07:24 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fsd350 View Post
A couple people on here including me have had loose exhaust manifold nuts which can cause ticking. 4 of mine were loose. A couple are tough to get to. I had a whistle under hard acceleration due to this also. Any soot around your manifold?
Interesting! I have wondered about the exhaust manifold leaking. The noise does seem to be coming from the front though but definitely something I will look into further. I have already had a look around the area for soot but can't see anything obvious - looks a nightmare to get to the manifold nuts. Do you know what they should be torqued up to? I definitely don't have a whistle under acceleration.
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      08-26-2016, 07:56 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palmo View Post
(snipped)...However, if I give it say 60-80% throttle, the car just pulls like a train but without kicking down (maximum torque is obviously available from that point onwards). It is in these scenarios that the vibration is felt. The car has the torque available and BMW programmed it to hold the gear so I do not believe this is being driven wrongly - why would I give it more power than I needed to force a kick-down or equally manually downshift or reduce the throttle and slow down? Again it is not a major vibration but one that is felt and is annoying and didn't used to be there. My dad's 635d in the same situation responds exactly the same in terms of holding the gear but does not vibrate. There is clearly something wrong here. I have driven these cars (525d, 335d & 635d thousands upon thousands of miles) and there is definitely something wrong here.
Does it do this in all shift modes? Is it repeatable in sport shifting mode (do you have sport shift mode there?) The rpm's, gear, and load factors mentioned sound like engine laboring (lugging) to me.

Regarding ticking: in addition to following up what fsd350 said, Have the injectors ever been serviced or removed in the vehicle? I ask because it's common for the injector hold-down forks to have been improperly torqued, the injector sealing (copper) washer to have been reused/reinstalled when it was out of spec's for thickness (too thin), or grime/grit in that same sealing area when injectors were serviced. You can anneal (soften with heat followed by no quench) the copper washers once or twice to get a 2nd or sometimes 3rd life out of them. -- (I come from the VW Tdi world where this is the root cause of sharp ticking noises under the hood 90% of the time.)
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      08-27-2016, 05:33 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicklockard View Post
Does it do this in all shift modes? Is it repeatable in sport shifting mode (do you have sport shift mode there?) The rpm's, gear, and load factors mentioned sound like engine laboring (lugging) to me.

Regarding ticking: in addition to following up what fsd350 said, Have the injectors ever been serviced or removed in the vehicle? I ask because it's common for the injector hold-down forks to have been improperly torqued, the injector sealing (copper) washer to have been reused/reinstalled when it was out of spec's for thickness (too thin), or grime/grit in that same sealing area when injectors were serviced. You can anneal (soften with heat followed by no quench) the copper washers once or twice to get a 2nd or sometimes 3rd life out of them. -- (I come from the VW Tdi world where this is the root cause of sharp ticking noises under the hood 90% of the time.)
It doesn't do the vibration in DS mode as this automatically holds the revs higher, so only does it in regular D mode. It can be replicated in manual mode by deliberatey holding a higher gear and increasing throttle in the discussed rev range - not something I would usually do but have tried as part of assessing the characteristics of the fault.

I haven't had the car from new (it had covered approx 38k miles when I got it) so can't be 100% if the injectors have ever been removed but I very much doubt it. Firstly I have a comprehensive service history and receipts folder and nothing is mentioned in there and from everything I have touched when working on it, there is no evidence of anything ever being messed with other than usual servicing items - so really doubt the injectors have ever been out - certainly not while I have owned it. Out of interest, I have done a smooth running test and the injector correctional values are excellent - all barely deviating from 0, so injectors appear in very good condition - the car certainly run's very well otherwise.
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      08-27-2016, 05:36 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fsd350 View Post
A couple people on here including me have had loose exhaust manifold nuts which can cause ticking. 4 of mine were loose. A couple are tough to get to. I had a whistle under hard acceleration due to this also. Any soot around your manifold?
Just considering this a little further - did you just tighten the manifold nuts, or did you remove the manifold and replace the manifold gasket before correctly torquing?
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      08-27-2016, 10:25 AM   #22
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In regards to engine noise..Do you have any deletes...Tune? etc.. Cold mornings with an egr delete the engine is significantly louder. The engine will change the injection timing which will make the car louder.
Check injectors to make sure there isn't a sealing issue. I have seen various european diesels (mercedes mostly) where the copper crush ring that seals the injectors will fail and fuel will make its way into the engine cabin. Symptoms are a loud tapping noise and low ish power, smoke or diesel smell in the cabin and under the hood.
In regards to the engine driveline vibration any codes? The zf tranny is extremely sensitive and will pick up vibration and throw you into limp mode. (ask me how i know.) Guibo is a good option. that being said I had a vibration in the tranny caused by a failed injector. (that was interesting to diagnose.) I have a thread floating around here about that somewhere.
Hope this helps
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