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      01-13-2013, 11:37 AM   #67
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read this on another forum and although some of the medical jargon is a bit over-emphasized for effect...the point is made.

Quote:
As far as safety restaint system, yes, all harness bars are absolute crap. Glad you can see the dangers here. A collison at an autocross is highly unlikely, but just having that bar in your car on the street, even if you're using your OEM 3 point belt, it can be a fatal mistake.



Okay, I'm making this post in an attempt to save the OP or anyone else who wishes to install a harness, harness bar, or roll cage from ending up paralyzed or dead. I see improperly used and improperly installed equipment on a regualr basis, and it kills me to see people risking their lives and their passengers lives simply because they don't have the pertinent information.

You NEVER mount harnesses to the floor, period. What is keeping you from doing a face plant on the steering wheel/dash in a front end collision? The seatback? That seat would snap like a toothpick. Not only that, as you fly forward into the dash, and you will, in even a low speed accident, the harness is going to pull down on your shoulders and compress your spine causing a debilitating or fatal back injury.

Furthermore, harnesses, harness bars, and roll cages have no place in a street car, period.

DO NOT USE HARNESS BARS for safety equipment. Use a bolted or welded in roll cage. But you are putting your life on the line if you use a roll cage, or even a harness bar without wearing a helmet AT ALL TIMES in the car. I know of someone who was killed in a 25mph collision when he bumped his head on his harness bar.

DO NOT USE ROLL BARS/CAGES on the street. You should never get into a car that has any type of roll cage or roll bar in it unless you wear a helmet at all times. See above for a further explaination of why a helmet is necessary.

DO NOT USE 4 POINT HARNESSES. Use 5 or 6 point harnesses. The reason you submarine out of a 4 point harness is that your upper body does not lean forward and over the lap belt like it would with a 3 point. Thus, the g forces force your body out under the lap belt. The act of submarining out of a belt is going to seriously injure and potentially kill you, but once you've submarined out of the harness, you can also be ejected from the car. Also, if you have a 5 or 6 point harness and it works as it should, it decelerates your torso instantly in a frontal impact, but your head will continue moving forward. This will result in a debilitating or fatal neck injury or instantly fatal basular skull fracture. Oh and that front airbag, forget about it because you'll never reach it if the harness works. Never use a harness on the street, period.

Next, harnesses should only be mounted at shoulder level and mounted only to a welded or bolted in roll cage, period. Mounting to the floor, or rear seatbelt mounts, causes the harness to pull down on your shoulders and crush your spine when you are in a frontal impact, causing a debilitating or fatal back injury. Also, you will be hitting the steering wheel/dash with full force if you've bolted the harness to the floor. The only place I would say that it is remotely safe to use an improperly installed harness is the autocross. This is because collisions at autocross events are more than rare, so you would not be at much risk of using the harness as a safety restraint. But, injuries are still possible, at least you can now weigh the risks and make an informed decision as to whether or not you use this equipment in your car.

STREET CARS DO NOT USE AFTERMARTKET SEATS. Well, they don't when they have integral airbags in the seats. When you remove the seats with airbags, the airbag light comes on, and you have now DISABLED EVERY AIRBAG IN THE CAR. You have no more front, side, or curtain airbags. You have also put yourself in hot water with your insurance company by removing your factory safety equipment. If you or someone else is injured or killed in your vehicle, even if the accident is the other guy's fault, you are going to get sued, along with the guy who hit you.

I've had several people mention that 'race cars' use this type of safety equipment, but....

Also consider that accidents in race cars are NOT usually as severe as accidents on the street. Everyone is going the same direction on a race track, so no head on collisions. The track is lined with tire walls and barriers so that it is highly unlikely that you could hit a solid object like a tree. The track is set up so that collisions are deflected and cars can't deccelerate all at once. There should be no spot on a track where you can go head on into something and deccelerate intantly. On the street, the hazards and potential impacts are far greater in likelihood and severity than on a track.

Furthermore, The safety equipment used in 'race cars' is a system, period. You cannot pick and choose what equipment you want to use. No harness without a HANS, no HANS without a helmet, no cage without a helmet, the list keeps going in cirlces. YOU NEED EVERYTHING. Race car drivers do not piecemeal their safety equipment together.

The factory safety equipment is the best possible design for street use and is also a system. When you remove or change one piece, nothing else works like it should. It kills me to see people risking and losing their lives so that they can have some Race Inspired Cosmetic Enhancements on their cars.

If self preservation is at all alive within you, use your factory safety equipment AND ONLY YOUR FACTORY SAFETY EQUIPMENT on the street.
so I am left with the following
- cannot get a harness bar as it will not provide sufficient structural support
- cannot get seat without 4-6 point, but then need a cage, and need a HANS so as to prevent cervical spine fractures
- if i get seat and figure out a way to pass OEM belt though the side piece, i most likely need to reposition the belt receptacle slightly to make sure it stay snug. also, i am disabling drive side airbag
- if i decide to get a sport seat just for a bit more support, short of getting the BMW performance recaros which have integrated airbags, but which are like 2500 each, getting a regular sport seat will still cost over 1000 and will necessitate disabling driver side airbag

i hate this shit.

thank you Joel for preventing me from making a potentially stupid mistake. i am still contemplating it if I can get the belt to work...but if not, I'm out. Even if I can, it's still iffy.
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      01-13-2013, 12:52 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GewoW View Post
read this on another forum and although some of the medical jargon is a bit over-emphasized for effect...the point is made.



so I am left with the following
- cannot get a harness bar as it will not provide sufficient structural support
- cannot get seat without 4-6 point, but then need a cage, and need a HANS so as to prevent cervical spine fractures
- if i get seat and figure out a way to pass OEM belt though the side piece, i most likely need to reposition the belt receptacle slightly to make sure it stay snug. also, i am disabling drive side airbag
- if i decide to get a sport seat just for a bit more support, short of getting the BMW performance recaros which have integrated airbags, but which are like 2500 each, getting a regular sport seat will still cost over 1000 and will necessitate disabling driver side airbag

i hate this shit.

thank you Joel for preventing me from making a potentially stupid mistake. i am still contemplating it if I can get the belt to work...but if not, I'm out. Even if I can, it's still iffy.
Doesn't seem to be possible. The only way this can work is to shorten the actual belt receptacle, which is not possible. It will end up towards the top of the seat on the right side, and so i can not put my belt in the hole and then in the receptacle, it would not allow for full tension. would be like an "s" shape routing. And if I don't put it in the hole, I would go over the seat and hence not around the hips....so not as safe and would destroy the seat in the even of a crash triggering the pre-tensioning of the belt

here is a good example of the issue with the belt



I'm out...fuck. oh well. camber
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      01-13-2013, 03:10 PM   #69
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finally working on the rear of your car?
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      01-13-2013, 03:19 PM   #70
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That post is actually excellent, thanks for sharing George. No need for seat!
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      01-13-2013, 03:27 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by GewoW View Post
Doesn't seem to be possible. The only way this can work is to shorten the actual belt receptacle, which is not possible. It will end up towards the top of the seat on the right side, and so i can not put my belt in the hole and then in the receptacle, it would not allow for full tension. would be like an "s" shape routing. And if I don't put it in the hole, I would go over the seat and hence not around the hips....so not as safe and would destroy the seat in the even of a crash triggering the pre-tensioning of the belt

here is a good example of the issue with the belt
...

I'm out...fuck. oh well. camber
Sucks, but much safer that way. I'm guessing a half cage (hoop into the floor with cross members all nice nice) would be 1300$ or so. You may want to speak to Seb to get a quote for grins. The seat ranges from 700 to 1800$, rails, slider and install another $500.

The camber mod is always good.
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      01-13-2013, 05:54 PM   #72
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porsche does this smart...they have a maleable seat belt receptacle can can pass through the hole and maintain OEM restraint with no issues






BMW has a stiff belt receptable with a steel wire inside (for pre-tensioning) and cannot really be routed through

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      01-13-2013, 05:57 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgalaxy View Post
Sucks, but much safer that way. I'm guessing a half cage (hoop into the floor with cross members all nice nice) would be 1300$ or so. You may want to speak to Seb to get a quote for grins. The seat ranges from 700 to 1800$, rails, slider and install another $500.
not worth it for now. i would like to retain rear seat functionality...at least 1. a rollcage would add so much weight and at the end of the day probably worsen things without a full strip to equalize the weight gain. So this will not happen unless I make this into a track car...which will happen at some point
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      01-13-2013, 09:10 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by jgalaxy View Post
Winter auto project
what are these for ??
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      01-13-2013, 09:23 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GewoW View Post
read this on another forum and although some of the medical jargon is a bit over-emphasized for effect...the point is made.



so I am left with the following
- cannot get a harness bar as it will not provide sufficient structural support
- cannot get seat without 4-6 point, but then need a cage, and need a HANS so as to prevent cervical spine fractures
- if i get seat and figure out a way to pass OEM belt though the side piece, i most likely need to reposition the belt receptacle slightly to make sure it stay snug. also, i am disabling drive side airbag
- if i decide to get a sport seat just for a bit more support, short of getting the BMW performance recaros which have integrated airbags, but which are like 2500 each, getting a regular sport seat will still cost over 1000 and will necessitate disabling driver side airbag

i hate this shit.

thank you Joel for preventing me from making a potentially stupid mistake. i am still contemplating it if I can get the belt to work...but if not, I'm out. Even if I can, it's still iffy.
george, the following is what i did and why i did it.

- installed recaro fixed back seat to stop me from sliding around.
- had to disable driver seat airbag.
- decided on installing one seat only so i can keep passenger side seat airbag fully functional, that way i dont put my passenger in as much risk.
- retained the use of 3 point belt.
- harnesses would require a harness bar but i dont think harness bars are safe without a roll hoop, which means a full roll bar would be needed... imo thats just too heavy a modification for me to justify financially.
- modified the seat belt receptacle to ensure that the standard 3 point belt will hold me in at the hips. i did this by channeling the seat belt receptacle through the belt hole on the right side of the seat. so when i put my seat belt on, the lower belt still goes across my hips.

not saying that what i did is the best in terms of safety but i weighed the pros and cons of what i did and was prepared to take the risks. the best and safest way to drive on a track would be to have a full fire proof race suit, helmet with hans, built-in fire extinguisher system, full weld-in roll cage with side protection bars, etc..... but go to any event and see how many people actually have this set up (usually less than 50%). it basically makes their car un-driveable on the street.

end of your day, its your car and your life. so you'll have to weigh in the pros and cons on your own. but dont let forum talk decide what you should be doing....

link to an e46 m3 that also had his seatbelt receptacle shortened.
http://m3forum.net/m3forum/showthrea...=315833&page=7
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      01-14-2013, 01:42 AM   #76
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check out this vid.... makes me feel like i dont know anything bout driving.

skip to 5.10 to see some action.

!
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      01-14-2013, 09:48 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal red View Post
george, the following is what i did and why i did it.

- installed recaro fixed back seat to stop me from sliding around.
- had to disable driver seat airbag.
- decided on installing one seat only so i can keep passenger side seat airbag fully functional, that way i dont put my passenger in as much risk.
- retained the use of 3 point belt.
- harnesses would require a harness bar but i dont think harness bars are safe without a roll hoop, which means a full roll bar would be needed... imo thats just too heavy a modification for me to justify financially.
- modified the seat belt receptacle to ensure that the standard 3 point belt will hold me in at the hips. i did this by channeling the seat belt receptacle through the belt hole on the right side of the seat. so when i put my seat belt on, the lower belt still goes across my hips.

not saying that what i did is the best in terms of safety but i weighed the pros and cons of what i did and was prepared to take the risks. the best and safest way to drive on a track would be to have a full fire proof race suit, helmet with hans, built-in fire extinguisher system, full weld-in roll cage with side protection bars, etc..... but go to any event and see how many people actually have this set up (usually less than 50%). it basically makes their car un-driveable on the street.

end of your day, its your car and your life. so you'll have to weigh in the pros and cons on your own. but dont let forum talk decide what you should be doing....

link to an e46 m3 that also had his seatbelt receptacle shortened.
http://m3forum.net/m3forum/showthrea...=315833&page=7
1- i don't know how it will fit though. it's already snug when im sitting...adding the receptacle will give me a permanent bruise
2- did u need to shorten the receptacle? how did you rout it it's so stiff
3- did any clubs not let you run
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      01-14-2013, 03:50 PM   #78
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And Chris. Do u have pics?
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      01-15-2013, 08:39 AM   #79
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Thought I would chime in on the seat-bar discussion to help clear out whats good and whats bad.

1- Running a race seat with a 3 point belt is a big NO NO as the belt has to be routed through the seat hole and have the correct geometry to rest in the iliac crest of the pelvis to prevent the submarine effect and-or abdomen injury.
Even worst, I heve seen guys run the 3 point belt on top of the raceseat.... This is excessively dangerous and will not keep you into the seat in a crash.

2- A race seat must run the proper harness to ensure a good fit and the most secure in case of impact. In order to use a race seat and harness 99% of clubs mandate to have a rollbar (not harnessbar) in case of rollover.

3- To have better support while keeping the functionality and safety of the OEM setup is installing DOT sport seats;recaro, cobra, etc... that will work properly with the 3 point harness. Don't forget that the OEM system is a integrate system with tensioner built into it to tighten the belt in case of impact to minimize submarining.

4- My 2 cents: If you do it...Do it right!! There is no substitute for safety... All looks good until someone get hurt and we are not playing bowling here!!!!!


Can wait to get back on the track!!!!


Now back in the shop to work on Jgalaxy's monster
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      01-15-2013, 11:29 AM   #80
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Hey Seb!

Thanks for chiming in!

Another way to look at it coldly, is that it may not be a bad idea to have the whole chabang: the roll cage, harness, hans device, etc. if one is mostly driving 10/10.
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      01-15-2013, 12:47 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seb1 View Post
Thought I would chime in on the seat-bar discussion to help clear out whats good and whats bad.

1- Running a race seat with a 3 point belt is a big NO NO as the belt has to be routed through the seat hole and have the correct geometry to rest in the iliac crest of the pelvis to prevent the submarine effect and-or abdomen injury.
Even worst, I heve seen guys run the 3 point belt on top of the raceseat.... This is excessively dangerous and will not keep you into the seat in a crash.

2- A race seat must run the proper harness to ensure a good fit and the most secure in case of impact. In order to use a race seat and harness 99% of clubs mandate to have a rollbar (not harnessbar) in case of rollover.

3- To have better support while keeping the functionality and safety of the OEM setup is installing DOT sport seats;recaro, cobra, etc... that will work properly with the 3 point harness. Don't forget that the OEM system is a integrate system with tensioner built into it to tighten the belt in case of impact to minimize submarining.

4- My 2 cents: If you do it...Do it right!! There is no substitute for safety... All looks good until someone get hurt and we are not playing bowling here!!!!!


Can wait to get back on the track!!!!


Now back in the shop to work on Jgalaxy's monster
Thx seb. That's enough for me. Will just stick to camber
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      01-15-2013, 05:19 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GewoW View Post
1- i don't know how it will fit though. it's already snug when im sitting...adding the receptacle will give me a permanent bruise
2- did u need to shorten the receptacle? how did you rout it it's so stiff
3- did any clubs not let you run
will give you more details on what i did if you decide to choose to install the seat but looks like you made up your mind.

1 and 2.)
i cut the oem receptacle so that it would sit lower. i did this on a used unit that i bought online so i dont ruin my oem one. it does intrude on your side slightly but never made me uncomfortable.

3.) no clubs have ever objected. most clubs have rules that if you want to run harnesses, you need a harness bar or roll bar but no rules stating what kind of seat you should have.

all depends on what youre comfortable with doing. i have seen tons of people using harnesses with OEM seats and no roll bar or harness bars like the schroth quick fit systems....this is another way to get your more anchored down in your seat...but if you go by what all the other folks are saying, this would probably be a no-go as well.

just gotta weight your own pros and cons.

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      01-15-2013, 09:51 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgalaxy View Post
Winter auto project
what are these for ??
It's just a little something I'm working on.
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      01-15-2013, 11:26 PM   #84
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Teaser
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      01-15-2013, 11:47 PM   #85
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Quote:
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Teaser
very confused!
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      01-16-2013, 12:25 AM   #86
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very confused!
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      01-16-2013, 12:27 AM   #87
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ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh shit son

and now i understand your teaser!
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      01-16-2013, 12:30 PM   #88
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Downforce baby!
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