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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Porsche or Procede? 6MT



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      08-16-2007, 01:21 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
FWIW, we have a Cayman S that we are working on right now......
Hey Shiv, does that mean if I one day update to a 911 (997) that my PROcede may be able to be re-used????

Cheers.
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      08-16-2007, 01:21 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wistarf View Post
Well, after driving the Cayman S I got in my 335 and my car suddenly felt somewhat soft and floaty in comparison. Part of it was certainly due to the difference in the seats. The CS had much more firm seats (which I actually liked), and part of it was undoubtedly due to the added mass of my car. But back-to-back, the difference was striking. As a daily driver however, I don't think there's a better ride/handling compromise on the planet than my car.

That said, I'm confident that my 335 could keep up with a Cayman S around just about any track. The suspension is just so well balanced and capable, even if it isn't as stiff as the Cayman's. And the fat helpings of torque don't hurt either.
Sway bars and coilovers wil take care of that. I am having that done to my 335i in about 3 weeks. I am goig with KW V2 and H&R sways, also corner balanced and alignment. I would be adding PROcede as well, but unless Shiv makes a toned down version of V2, I think I will pass.
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      08-16-2007, 01:47 AM   #25
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i was shopping the cayman and ended up with the 335i...
the turbo sold me
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      08-16-2007, 02:19 AM   #26
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i have a cayman and its really depends on what you want. The cayman feels more like a sports/track car as oppose to the touring feel of the 335i coupe. The cayman is exceptional when i took it up the canyons.

The turn-in and balance is spot on especially since its a mid engine car.it really feels like the car is an extension of you rather then you actually driving it. you would feel more confident pushing it then the 335i . The throttle response as you have mentioned is exceptionally good as well

this is stock for stock. with sway bars and coilovers; for BOTH cars, the advantage will still go to the cayman. with a procede 335i, the cayman is still a much lighter car. its not always the fastest cars that win races on the tracks...plus the novelty of fast straight acceleration wears down fast once you get use to it.

if you're driving the cayman daily, it does get loud with the engine right behind you.(love the boxer note though.)

having said all that, if you want a turbocharge euro car that has an engine with potential of untold proportions, comfortable and much better for long distance driving. stick to the 335i. i love it more driving it around daily.




PS: on the side note, RUF already has a supercharger kit out for the cayman. check out cayman club .net for more information about the car and take note, its the only porsche that can fit a set of golf bag besides the cayenne!!

dont think too much about the extra 20k of buying a porsche as oppose to a BMW in terms of value for money. its a porsche you're buying. just because they are both coupes doesnt mean they are in the same category.
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      08-16-2007, 02:23 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike fab View Post
So, my question: will the Procede help the shortcomings that I percieve in the 335?
I have a steptronic (not manual) 335i with PROcede but I can give you a relative comparison with Porsches. My friend has a 2000 911 (996) that spends a bit of time in the workshop. He is always given near new Porsche loaners, the most recent last Tuesday when he was given a Boxster S steptronic. I took this car for a long test run with a friend as a passenger.

What I noticed:
  • My friend stated the Boxster S was quicker than his 911 (this is quite possible as his model is the 911 4 wheel drive also steptronic powered by the older 3.4 engine).
  • My PROcede 335 definitely feels quicker than the Boxster S. The Boxster roars but does not have the oomph to match. The Boxster S has no grunt down low at all.
  • The Boxster is noisy and feels cramped without a back seat. In fact I found the engine drone was annoying after a while.
  • The Boxster has better steering feel, corners like a go-kart and absorbs potholes surprisingly well. It would make a brilliant track car.
I have also driven my friend's loaner Cayman as well as a 911 Turbo (996) on the track. I can give my thoughts on these as well if needed.

In my opinion the 335i is a better value option than a Boxster S. I hope to one day compare my 335i to a 911 (997) to see how it stacks up.

Hope this helps you Mike.

Cheers.
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      08-16-2007, 05:18 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptOz View Post
In my opinion the 335i is a better value option than a Boxster S. I hope to one day compare my 335i to a 911 (997) to see how it stacks up.


Cheers.
Might have to introduce you to my friends at SVM

Sorry for the OT but how is the LSD project coming along? I'm doing some suspension mods first since this crown weld is holding mine up.
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      08-16-2007, 06:18 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by WOPALX View Post
Might have to introduce you to my friends at SVM

Sorry for the OT but how is the LSD project coming along? I'm doing some suspension mods first since this crown weld is holding mine up.
I will be ordering the Quaife LSD from Birds in the UK when I get back from holidays. I don't expect any problems as long as I find an experienced installer I can trust.

Cheers.
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      08-16-2007, 08:53 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ward View Post
the BMW just isolates you from the road a bit more, BMW has made more "luxury" compromises than Porsche has

the steering, clutch, brakes don't communicate as much as the Porsche cars

the BMW is better than most on the road, but the P cars are better

to the OP, I think the CDV mod may help your complaints, but I don't think more HP is the answer


OK, Ward, I think you understand me. This thread has become "335 vs. Cayman", which isn't exactly what I intended. I really wanted to talk about whether the Procede will effect the throttle response in the 335.

Again, this isn't about absolute amount of torque. The 335 has a lot more than the boxster/cayman s. Its about stepping partially on the throttle in a corner, then pushing on the throttle more and getting IMMEDIATE, PRECISE and CONSISTENT amount of thrust. The p-cars have this dialed-in. After driving one, I have found the throttle feel lazy in the 335.

Thanks for the comments so far. Does anyone have first hand experience on throttle response changes that the Procede offers a 6MT 335?
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      08-16-2007, 08:55 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zenmaster View Post
Stock Cayman S 2954lbs/295hp = 10.0 lb/hp
Stock 335i e92 3584lbs/315hp = 11.4 lb/hp
Just wanted to point out the above power to weight ratios are a bit flawed.
First, the stock 335i is equally as fast as the stock Cayman S.
Both have identical 0-60 times and similiar 1/4 mile times too.
How is that?

Well, do the power to weight ratio with the following for the BMW 335i
3350 lbs / 320 hp = 10.4 lbs/hp

BMW lists the weight of their cars with a driver, cargo, and 90% full tank of fuel. Remove the driver and cargo and the weight of a manual coupe is around 3350 lbs. Plus the 335i engine really puts about 320 hp out of it.
That gives a power to weight ratio of nearly identical with the Cayman S, the torque of the 335i and gearing variances make the two cars equals in the acceleration arena stock.
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      08-16-2007, 12:00 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike fab View Post
OK, Ward, I think you understand me. This thread has become "335 vs. Cayman", which isn't exactly what I intended. I really wanted to talk about whether the Procede will effect the throttle response in the 335.

Again, this isn't about absolute amount of torque. The 335 has a lot more than the boxster/cayman s. Its about stepping partially on the throttle in a corner, then pushing on the throttle more and getting IMMEDIATE, PRECISE and CONSISTENT amount of thrust. The p-cars have this dialed-in. After driving one, I have found the throttle feel lazy in the 335.

Thanks for the comments so far. Does anyone have first hand experience on throttle response changes that the Procede offers a 6MT 335?

It offers no more throttle response IMHO. I have an AT though. I think throttle response is improved based on what gear you're in and what RPMs you're at. For auto's DS (sport) mode improves throttle response in the sense that you're at 2000-2400RPM with down shifts where in regular D mode you might drop to 1000-1500RPM. Turbos spool up quicker, and acceleration happens more promptly. So for me I can feel a difference in how precise you can be with the throttle. To be fair, I have autocrossed and been on the track and the 335i has sloppy throttle response compared to NA cars. Everyone that has driven both the 335i and their own NA car says the 335i feels good on the track, but the throttle response is somewhat sluggish. It's because it's a turbo'd car. Procede won't get the 335i's throttle response to the level of a NA Cayman, IMHO.
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      08-16-2007, 12:04 PM   #33
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The Cayman is more like a Lotus. The 335 is a tourer. You feel more with the Cayman, whereas the 335 is insulated.

That said, there are ways to enhance the feel of the 335. I have been very happy with the increased sporty feel from the following mods to my 335: M-sport steering wheel, Zeckenhausen CDV, and M-sport wheels and Pirelli P-0s (huge dif). I will be installing a Quaife LSD, PROcede, coilovers, strut braces, & sways. I will also try and lower the weight a bit. It will not be a Cayman, but it will be a much more precise and exciting ride than stock. The other option to consider is the new M3.
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      08-16-2007, 01:24 PM   #34
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Stressdoc... do the Pirelli's make you feel more connected to the road? I've heard good things about other non-RFTs. Sometimes Potenza RFTs feel... ummm.. floaty.
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      08-16-2007, 01:31 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
FWIW, we have a Cayman S that we are working on right now. Today, it baselined at 257-260whp on the dyno. Yes, it's getting a PROcede. And yes, it is the same one used in the BMW

Cheers
Shiv
what...? ok, you got me noggered. Wence, did thy croc get a turbo...? pr are you talking emu for the flat-6?
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      08-16-2007, 01:44 PM   #36
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I have never liked a set of tires as much as these new Pirellis. I was all set to go with the gold standard Michelin PS2s until I read a couple reviews of the P0s. The P0s were classified as "extreme performance" (more radical) than the PS2s -- but now they are in the same "max performance". Not having had the Michelins on this car, I cannot make a direct comparison. But the difference between the P0s and the Bridgestone RE050 rfts is big. Ditto for the difference with my winter tires (Contis). The Pirelli P0s provide a ton of grip and a ton of feel. The best way to describe them is Gum Rubber. The rfts were stiff and unyielding, and the grip was pretty good. The P0s are also stiff, but rather than skittering over little road irregularities, you have the feeling that they conform and grab. The sidewalls seem to have the same lack of sideways flex, but they give more over little bumps. So at max cornering, the sidewall flex is the same (nil), but the ride is better, and the grip higher. Road feel is better, you are more aware of the surface and limits of adhesion, and yet the ride is a little more comfortable. And the acceleration is way better. It is harder to spin the P0s, and the car just seems to leap from a stop in a highly predictable way.

The big drawback: $ for standard ZSP sizes (@ Tirerack 225/40/18 - $240 & 255/35/18 - $315; if you go up to 235s and 265s they are $45 and $20 more). But PS2s are not cheap either. I look forward to a high quality comparison test.
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      08-16-2007, 01:50 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Garrett View Post
what...? ok, you got me noggered. Wence, did thy croc get a turbo...? pr are you talking emu for the flat-6?
It does not have turbo.
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      08-16-2007, 01:52 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stressdoc View Post
I have never liked a set of tires as much as these new Pirellis. I was all set to go with the gold standard Michelin PS2s until I read a couple reviews of the P0s. The P0s were classified as "extreme performance" (more radical) than the PS2s -- but now they are in the same "max performance". Not having had the Michelins on this car, I cannot make a direct comparison. But the difference between the P0s and the Bridgestone RE050 rfts is big. Ditto for the difference with my winter tires (Contis). The Pirelli P0s provide a ton of grip and a ton of feel. The best way to describe them is Gum Rubber. The rfts were stiff and unyielding, and the grip was pretty good. The P0s are also stiff, but rather than skittering over little road irregularities, you have the feeling that they conform and grab. The sidewalls seem to have the same lack of sideways flex, but they give more over little bumps. So at max cornering, the sidewall flex is the same (nil), but the ride is better, and the grip higher. Road feel is better, you are more aware of the surface and limits of adhesion, and yet the ride is a little more comfortable. And the acceleration is way better. It is harder to spin the P0s, and the car just seems to leap from a stop in a highly predictable way.

The big drawback: $ for standard ZSP sizes (@ Tirerack 225/40/18 - $240 & 255/35/18 - $315; if you go up to 235s and 265s they are $45 and $20 more). But PS2s are not cheap either. I look forward to a high quality comparison test.
I'm glad you are happy with them. I have heard nothing but excellent feedback regarding them.
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      08-16-2007, 01:53 PM   #39
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Certainly not any more than the Potenzas. I have the Blizzaks for winter tires. Those things are squishy soft. You can almost feel the rubber sticking to the pavement in 50 degree "heat". Ahh... what to do. I'd like a little more stability over uneven pavement.
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      08-16-2007, 01:58 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by DrDomer View Post
Certainly not any more than the Potenzas. I have the Blizzaks for winter tires. Those things are squishy soft. You can almost feel the rubber sticking to the pavement in 50 degree "heat". Ahh... what to do. I'd like a little more stability over uneven pavement.
Smoke the rfts and get some quality shoes and coilovers. And send some of that rain down our way.
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      08-16-2007, 02:06 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike fab View Post
OK, Ward, I think you understand me. This thread has become "335 vs. Cayman", which isn't exactly what I intended. I really wanted to talk about whether the Procede will effect the throttle response in the 335.

Again, this isn't about absolute amount of torque. The 335 has a lot more than the boxster/cayman s. Its about stepping partially on the throttle in a corner, then pushing on the throttle more and getting IMMEDIATE, PRECISE and CONSISTENT amount of thrust. The p-cars have this dialed-in. After driving one, I have found the throttle feel lazy in the 335.

Thanks for the comments so far. Does anyone have first hand experience on throttle response changes that the Procede offers a 6MT 335?
What you are describing is what happens when you compare an NA car to a turbocharged one. Some people just prefer the honest and instant power delivery of an NA engine. If you want that feeling, you will NEVER get if from a 335i, because its factory turbo.

FWIW, I've never felt a car come up onto boost as seamlessly as a 335i, due to the high compression ratio and tiny stock turbos.

Drive an older Evo VIII, and you'll swear the 335i feels NA in comparison.
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      08-16-2007, 02:32 PM   #42
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I'm thinking to make a separate thread on this, but it seemed relevant here. One of the most important things you could do to make a 335 feel more like a Cayman is lose weight. That was seeming like a very difficult thing to do, but I just totalled up some simple mods and the losses are substantial: wheels 8 lbs. each, tires 5 lbs each, coilovers 8 lbs each, hollow sways 15 lbs each, exhaust 40 lbs, DPs 10 lbs, mini battery 40 lbs, take out tool kit and other unnecessary stuff, and we are talking over 200 lbs, much of it unsprung weight. That is going to make a significant difference.
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      08-16-2007, 02:57 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stressdoc View Post
I'm thinking to make a separate thread on this, but it seemed relevant here. One of the most important things you could do to make a 335 feel more like a Cayman is lose weight. That was seeming like a very difficult thing to do, but I just totalled up some simple mods and the losses are substantial: wheels 8 lbs. each, tires 5 lbs each, coilovers 8 lbs each, hollow sways 15 lbs each, exhaust 40 lbs, DPs 10 lbs, mini battery 40 lbs, take out tool kit and other unnecessary stuff, and we are talking over 200 lbs, much of it unsprung weight. That is going to make a significant difference.

But most of those weight removing items are costly.
Wheels/tires are probably the most bang for the buck as you gain a lot by spending a grand or two swapping to different wheels/tires and dropping 25-45 lbs rotational mass while gaining better all around performance.

Where do you get hollow sways?
And I'd guess they'd be expensive, plus installing sways on this car is a costly install.

Exhaust is usually closer to a 30 lbs drop in weight, but it's worth it because you drop weight, gain a bit of power, and get great sound all for $1100-2000

DP's are great too, but expensive and while many dealers will accept cat back exhaust systems and not void a warranty, don't know of ANY who will accept DP's on a car without voiding the engine/turbo warranty.

Also don't know if you'll drop 40 lbs from a lightweight battery.
The LW batts are usually around 12-15 pounds.
OEM ones are probably 40-45 pounds, so you'll save 25-30 lbs.
It's a good mod and have considered it myself.

The tool kit weighs probably 2-3 lbs. Not worth not having it in the car.

BMW should offer the 335i with an optional sunroof.
Those alone add probably 10-12 pounds to the car and it's all in the worst place...top of the car.
Same with aluminum hoods instead of steel. Would also probably save 10 pounds not only up high, but in the front, where you want to lose a bit of weight to make the weight distribution better.
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      08-16-2007, 03:01 PM   #44
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That's a good point. Instead I've added weight. Two child seats (yes... you read that right... and yes it's a coupe ) 30lbs, trunk mat - 10lbs.... you get the picture. If someone was serious, you get get a carbon fiber hood. I've seen wheels like Kosei K1s that weigh 17lbs a piece. I didn't realize coilovers would save any weight (although I am a dumbarse). RFTs are heavy. I could stop eating McDonald's. You even wonder how much heavier leather interior is than Alacantra (sp?)?

P.S. I scheduled golf yesterday... Hence, it rained here. If you want to schedule me a tee-time in Missouri than you can get some too! I was just in Swansea (by St.Louis) last weekend... 104F on the bank clock... hot!

Sorry for the banter.
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Last edited by DrDomer; 08-16-2007 at 03:05 PM. Reason: It's raining.
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