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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Vargas Turbo Stage 2 / 3 update



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      01-02-2013, 12:57 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by robc1976 View Post
11.4-11.2 with RB'S is being done, I just got a bunch of suspension mods for some better traction....will report back after I run and Dyno.
RB's are legit no doubt , but I'm getting the sense that Carl thinks solid 10 second n54 cars are gonna be a dime a dozen b/c he masses will demand a 5k turbo kit.. 10 sec cars cost $$$$ that's why there so cool..

I wouldn't be suprised it there's a potential 10 sec RB right now just waiting for the right combo of driver, conditions and perfect setup...
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      01-02-2013, 01:04 PM   #112
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RB's are legit no doubt , but I'm getting the sense that Carl thinks solid 10 second n54 cars are gonna be a dime a dozen b/c he masses will demand a 5k turbo kit.. 10 sec cars cost $$$$ that's why there so cool..

I wouldn't be suprised it there's a potential 10 sec RB right now just waiting for the right combo of driver, conditions and perfect setup...
+1 getting a car into the 10's is not a sub 5K turbo kit away. I will say, I do think the prices on N54 stuff will come down as they are right now. But never to Honda levels, these care are much more complicated which is why the progress has been so slow to begin with. The old saying still holds true. Cheap, Fast, Reliable. Pick two.
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      01-02-2013, 01:09 PM   #113
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I wouldn't be suprised it there's a potential 10 sec RB right now just waiting for the right combo of driver, conditions and perfect setup...
That is wht m going to try and do, I will be using 100 meth additive, 80% E85 see wht it can do. I have the differential lock down unit from DEFIV, LSD, Powerflex subframe bushings, BC BR coil-overs, hotchkis sway bars and M3 control arms up front. I think I have the power....traction is more important now.
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      01-02-2013, 01:12 PM   #114
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RB's are legit no doubt , but I'm getting the sense that Carl thinks solid 10 second n54 cars are gonna be a dime a dozen b/c he masses will demand a 5k turbo kit.. 10 sec cars cost $$$$ that's why there so cool..

I wouldn't be suprised it there's a potential 10 sec RB right now just waiting for the right combo of driver, conditions and perfect setup...
Agree man, I have we'll over $20,000 in my car (lots if OEM stuff rep,aced along he way in that price lol!) but I save lot on labor because I install everything myself.
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      01-02-2013, 01:44 PM   #115
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Show me a twin turbo platform that you can get into the 10's with a sub 5k turbo kit.. Or even into the serious 500hp area , not 501 or 525 hp.
I'm just saying, as soon as the market is big enough (cars are cheap enough) it will happen. The work Vargas is doing right now will put him in a good position to pursue that when the time comes, if he chooses to. If it's done with twins my prediction is that it will be done with custom housings and wheels that are stock-compatible. Look at what FP did with their Green/Red/Black turbos for the 4g63. They made their own stock-compatible housings and wheels once the market was big enough. I'm thinking something similar to that. But in the meantime I look forward to a good Stage 3 solution that will unfortunately sell in limited numbers as Vargas noted.
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      01-02-2013, 01:46 PM   #116
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I'm getting the sense that Carl thinks solid 10 second n54 cars are gonna be a dime a dozen
I do think they will once the cars get cheap enough. There are a ton of them out there and the potential is becoming more obvious every day.
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      01-02-2013, 01:53 PM   #117
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+1 getting a car into the 10's is not a sub 5K turbo kit away. I will say, I do think the prices on N54 stuff will come down as they are right now. But never to Honda levels, these care are much more complicated which is why the progress has been so slow to begin with. The old saying still holds true. Cheap, Fast, Reliable. Pick two.
Not at the moment. But what's preventing it? Basically just a cheap way to get 65+lb/min into the motor and the software to control it. Both will be relatively cheap in 5 years when the cars are cheap. And people will buy an AWD model or a pair of slicks and it will happen. Right now while the cars are expensive everybody is trying to do everything perfect...just wait until the cheap junkyard guys get ahold of these. They won't have a problem with driving one around on a hacked up drag suspension that none of us would touch. If the ECU is just too complicated somebody will make a $500 one that gets the job done, etc.. Yeah, people will blow them up and make them undriveable and nobody will care.
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      01-02-2013, 02:20 PM   #118
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I do think they will once the cars get cheap enough. There are a ton of them out there and the potential is becoming more obvious every day.
I'm almost with you, but a bunch of ricer boys driving 335's kinda scares me..

Here's why I don't think it will happen.. 2001 330's are still 10k . Theses cars will never be cheap for reasons you already stated.. Very modable . I bet you won't be selling your 335 cheap to some 18 y.o. In 5 yrs for 40% of what you paid.. You'll be asking top dollar b/c you know how cool it is.

It will be a demand supply thing.. And if by some reason there's a 700hp turbo kit for 5k what about the other maintaince stuff coils , water pumps and other stuff that will break just from being 10yrs old that again will never be that cheap the reason why guys run fox body's and ls1 swaps.

Although I'm in agreement that more companies may start severing up n54 needs it will never be cheap just a bit better. Although it seems like there's a ton of n54 cars if you calculated car owners and owners that modify and owners that are willing to break shit. Stg3 turbo owners will still be in the low hundreds of drivers..

Majority of owners will just be replacing there blown ones with a small upgrade..
Just my thoughts man.

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      01-02-2013, 02:37 PM   #119
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I'm almost with you, but a bunch of ricer boys driving 335's kinda scares me..

Here's why I don't think it will happen.. 2001 330's are still 10k .
I'm sure nice ones are. But where are the clapped out ones? I imagine with a 330 they go to the ghetto or to high school kids. But that's because a 330 doesn't have drag potential. An equivalent 335 will attract a different kind of owner that will pony up a few hundred more.

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Theses cars will never be cheap for reasons you already stated.. Very modable . I bet you won't be selling your 335 cheap to some 18 y.o. In 5 yrs for 40% of what you paid.. You'll be asking top dollar b/c you know how cool it is.
If so, it will be a first. Normally I buy cheap and by the time I'm done with them they're worthless :-). I sold my 250+k mile 12 second GVR4 to my mechanic for 2 grand.

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It will be a demand supply thing.. And if by some reason there's a 700hp turbo kit for 5k what about the other maintaince stuff coils , water pumps and other stuff that will break just from being 10yrs old that again will never be that cheap the reason why guys run fox body's and ls1 swaps.
But keep in mind that Fox bodies and LS1s used to be kind of expensive. And they had some features that were a pain. But workarounds and cheap fixes were developed because people liked them and wanted to keep them on the road. I'm just predicting that due to performance potential similar things will occur on this platform. I think there are too many out there for them to actually appreciate due to being so cool.
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      01-02-2013, 03:40 PM   #120
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I do think they will once the cars get cheap enough. There are a ton of them out there and the potential is becoming more obvious every day.
Have you looked at pricing for turbo kits on older cheaper BMW's? Say e36 M3, this is a good kit:

http://techniquetuning.com/e36m3obd1turbo.html

The point is a whole car in decent condition can be bought for about the same price as the kit. I know, I still own one (e36 M3), have had it since new. Getting a reliable 400-500WHP out of that car is a 8-12k proposition, not including drivetrain and exhaust and other mods, for a well sorted kit. BTW s52 twin turbos now approaching 1200WHP and 225 MPH standing mile.

Outside of eBay kits and hacker stuff e36 kits have stayed about the same price per WHP over the years, but maybe improved in quality and reliability. As the car price plummets. I hope they have bottomed, who knows. I doubt they recover and become collectible like e30 M3's seem to be doing now, as they made a shitload of them.

So I doubt N54 kit prices come down a whole lot lower, even though the car may become somewhat cheaper. The basic FFTEC/Vishnu big single kit is comparable in price to the above, yet puts out quite a bit more power. I'd love to see a well-sorted stage 3 twin upgrade for N54 come out.
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      01-02-2013, 03:53 PM   #121
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I understand what you're saying, but I think it might be different this time and might pull in a different type of vendor. I say this because the people who have modified BMWs prior to the 335 were BMW people who just wanted the fastest BMW they could build. I expect the 335 (when it gets cheap enough) to pull in people who aren't "BMW people" for the first time, and I consider myself to be on the leading edge of that. I had no desire to own a BMW, but I did want a turbo I6/6MT/AWD 4dr and that led me to the 335. I wouldn't be surprised if thousands of other people who want a lot of horsepower potential and would otherwise drive a muscle car or rally-type car don't end up doing the same thing because it has all the ingredients they are looking for.

The thing most likely to stop them is if they can't be kept on the road at reasonable cost. But the community seems to be near critical mass for having the knowledge commonly available to do fuel pump and water pump and injector swaps without bankrupting the owner the way dealer prices would for a person paying 10k for the car.
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      01-02-2013, 03:59 PM   #122
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I understand what you're saying, but I think it might be different this time and might pull in a different type of vendor. I say this because the people who have modified BMWs prior to the 335 were BMW people who just wanted the fastest BMW they could build. I expect the 335 (when it gets cheap enough) to pull in people who aren't "BMW people" for the first time, and I consider myself to be on the leading edge of that. I had no desire to own a BMW, but I did want a turbo I6/6MT/AWD 4dr and that led me to the 335. I wouldn't be surprised if thousands of other people who want a lot of horsepower potential and would otherwise drive a muscle car or rally-type car don't end up doing the same thing because it has all the ingredients they are looking for.

The thing most likely to stop them is if they can't be kept on the road at reasonable cost. But the community seems to be near critical mass for having the knowledge commonly available to do fuel pump and water pump and injector swaps without bankrupting the owner the way dealer prices would for a person paying 10k for the car.
I can concur with your thesis, some friends and I grew up on fast imports. Now that we are settled down and established in life, the 335 gives us the tunability that we loved, but with some refinement and luxury. The Fast and Furious boy racer crowd has grown up, and they love anything Turbo.
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      01-02-2013, 04:17 PM   #123
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I'm sure nice ones are. But where are the clapped out ones? I imagine with a 330 they go to the ghetto or to high school kids. But that's because a 330 doesn't have drag potential. An equivalent 335 will attract a different kind of owner that will pony up a few hundred more.



But keep in mind that Fox bodies and LS1s used to be kind of expensive. And they had some features that were a pain. But workarounds and cheap fixes were developed because people liked them and wanted to keep them on the road. I'm just predicting that due to performance potential similar things will occur on this platform. I think there are too many out there for them to actually appreciate due to being so cool.

I think you missed my point about the 330.. Nice car but nothing to special still commanding a premium , what will be a special car 335 will command a higher premium.. And clapped out or otherwised owners always think its worth more than its.

I know little about fox body's and ls1 swaps except they can be made fast easily and cheaply, again just saying there will always be a extra cost to own a BMW always has been always will be..

And I think any Johnny come lately vendors will have a per unit profit point as opposed to a volume thing..

I appreciate the optimistic out look and hope it comes true only time will tell.
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      01-02-2013, 04:19 PM   #124
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The Fast and Furious boy racer crowd has grown up.
Not 100% buying that..
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      01-02-2013, 04:21 PM   #125
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There should be a few RB setups in the 10s this year... Lets do thiiiiiis!
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      01-02-2013, 05:05 PM   #126
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The old saying still holds true. Cheap, Fast, Reliable. Pick two.
I have to agree with this comment from Vargas. We see it time and time again on all platforms but people always forget that you can't have all three of those. Most people usually end up struggling as they choose cheap parts to go fast only to come back and throw more money in and around the same modification to make it reliable. It is a vicious cycle that I am also guilty of on a previous platform I was part of, namely VW. Not going down that same road again that is for sure.

I do miss my vdub many a time though..
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      01-02-2013, 05:10 PM   #127
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I do think they will once the cars get cheap enough. There are a ton of them out there and the potential is becoming more obvious every day.
Have you looked at pricing for turbo kits on older cheaper BMW's? Say e36 M3, this is a good kit:

http://techniquetuning.com/e36m3obd1turbo.html

The point is a whole car in decent condition can be bought for about the same price as the kit. I know, I still own one (e36 M3), have had it since new. Getting a reliable 400-500WHP out of that car is a 8-12k proposition, not including drivetrain and exhaust and other mods, for a well sorted kit. BTW s52 twin turbos now approaching 1200WHP and 225 MPH standing mile.

Outside of eBay kits and hacker stuff e36 kits have stayed about the same price per WHP over the years, but maybe improved in quality and reliability. As the car price plummets. I hope they have bottomed, who knows. I doubt they recover and become collectible like e30 M3's seem to be doing now, as they made a shitload of them.

So I doubt N54 kit prices come down a whole lot lower, even though the car may become somewhat cheaper. The basic FFTEC/Vishnu big single kit is comparable in price to the above, yet puts out quite a bit more power. I'd love to see a well-sorted stage 3 twin upgrade for N54 come out.
+1. Honestly we have stayed away from the cheaper import scene and chose to get back in to performance turbocharger options with the N54 because of the potential and the exclusivity of a higher end German platform. The lower the price of turbo kits and parts became the less discerning the owners become and honestly this is not a desirable situation for most performance shops trying to make a name in a community and platform. I do not see the N54 going the Honda route and use the same examples of older bmw's turbo options staying steady price wise. This is an awesome platform with its challenges. We will be bringing some great options for you guys. Stage 3 will be up and running soon.
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      01-02-2013, 06:33 PM   #128
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Have you looked at pricing for turbo kits on older cheaper BMW's? Say e36 M3, this is a good kit:

http://techniquetuning.com/e36m3obd1turbo.html

The point is a whole car in decent condition can be bought for about the same price as the kit. I know, I still own one (e36 M3), have had it since new. Getting a reliable 400-500WHP out of that car is a 8-12k proposition, not including drivetrain and exhaust and other mods, for a well sorted kit. BTW s52 twin turbos now approaching 1200WHP and 225 MPH standing mile.

Outside of eBay kits and hacker stuff e36 kits have stayed about the same price per WHP over the years, but maybe improved in quality and reliability. As the car price plummets. I hope they have bottomed, who knows. I doubt they recover and become collectible like e30 M3's seem to be doing now, as they made a shitload of them.

So I doubt N54 kit prices come down a whole lot lower, even though the car may become somewhat cheaper. The basic FFTEC/Vishnu big single kit is comparable in price to the above, yet puts out quite a bit more power. I'd love to see a well-sorted stage 3 twin upgrade for N54 come out.
It's always more expensive to turbo charge a car that is N/A from the factory. In addition, a car that is limited production and has a limited demand for turbo products will demand a higher price because of little or no competition in the space. The n54 offers a much bigger market and more vendors will enter the space when the cars become cheaper, which will drive prices down as more aftermarket options become available. I suspect the n54 aftermarket will be more expensive than the 4g63, 2jz, ls1 crowd due to it's smaller size. However, this platform has alot to offer for those that want a powerful yet respectable DD so it will grow in the coming years.

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+1. Honestly we have stayed away from the cheaper import scene and chose to get back in to performance turbocharger options with the N54 because of the potential and the exclusivity of a higher end German platform. The lower the price of turbo kits and parts became the less discerning the owners become and honestly this is not a desirable situation for most performance shops trying to make a name in a community and platform. I do not see the N54 going the Honda route and use the same examples of older bmw's turbo options staying steady price wise. This is an awesome platform with its challenges. We will be bringing some great options for you guys. Stage 3 will be up and running soon.
I see your Stage 1 and 2 options as filling the void for replacement twins under $3k in this market at the moment. The stage 3 option will appeal to a limited crowd that will pay a premium to retain twins and make big power. There will be a gap however, and we will see vendors entering into the $3-6k single turbo space and providing options very soon.
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      01-02-2013, 06:50 PM   #129
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I suspect the n54 aftermarket will be more expensive than the 4g63, 2jz, ls1 crowd due to it's smaller size.
This is what I'm questioning, particularly the 2jz. I'm just noting that because of the way BMW arranged their product line, a very large (IMO) number of N54/N55 engines have been build and delivered to the USA. Once the cars are cheap, the crowd could end up being much larger than people are currently anticipating. Maybe I'm jaded in Colorado, but I see a ton of them every day, and most are owned by people who have no emotional attachment to them, are not on any boards, and will be getting rid of them as soon as they have an expensive repair that's not under warranty and something new catches their eye.
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      01-02-2013, 07:01 PM   #130
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This is what I'm questioning, particularly the 2jz. I'm just noting that because of the way BMW arranged their product line, a very large (IMO) number of N54/N55 engines have been build and delivered to the USA. Once the cars are cheap, the crowd could end up being much larger than people are currently anticipating. Maybe I'm jaded in Colorado, but I see a ton of them every day, and most are owned by people who have no emotional attachment to them, are not on any boards, and will be getting rid of them as soon as they have an expensive repair that's not under warranty and something new catches their eye.
I think it will be more expensive atleast in the next couple of years. After that, it will be a mature market with a knowledgeable community and alot of tested aftermarket parts available. Hopefully the cars age gracefully without frequent $1k+ repair bills as the miles go up.

The simple fact that for $1,500 you can be 400whp+ in a comfortable sleeper will attract a large crowd as prices come down. All those Honda kids who drop $10k into a motor build will sell their rust buckets and cruise in luxury.
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      01-02-2013, 11:18 PM   #131
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Show me a twin turbo platform that you can get into the 10's with a sub 5k turbo kit.. Or even into the serious 500hp area , not 501 or 525 hp.
http://fsrmotorsports.com/index.php?...mart&Itemid=69

Boom.
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      01-03-2013, 06:27 AM   #132
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Well if that is all you mean by a "kit" then sure, sub 5k kits are going to be out there, sooner the better. The basic FFTEC/V is $6.8k with more stuff. Get a chinese knock-off of their manifold and a cheaper turbo and decontent some and you're under 5k easy.

But in reality you need at least a basic tune, bigger IC, integrated meth system, exhaust, etc etc. before you even touch the rest of the car outside of the engine compartment.

When I think "kit" it means everything needed to covert stocker inside the EC up to where the downpipes meet stock exhaust, to functional use of extra air capacity without blowing up. No clutch or driveline mods. The e36 turbo kit I posted above is such a kit. A turbo, BOV, and manifold is not a kit. Likewise RB's are not a kit, neither are the coming stage 2/3 Vargas a kit. They are upgrades to one (major) component of an existing system. Upgrades I hope would definitely come in well under 5k. Two really big turbos and a well executed manifold, without fueling, IC, etc. who knows.

Two bigger turbos for 911 996TT are not really that expensive, for example. It's all the extra stuff to keep your $$$ german motor from slagging that racks up the major coin.
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