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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > New 2006 330i & 530i turbo kits



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      05-23-2005, 06:10 PM   #1
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New 2006 330i & 530i turbo kits

Hello... I'm the owner of HorsepowerFreaks and have decided to divert some of our R&D into the development of a turbo kit / intercooler and exhaust system for the new 2006 330i and 530i. We sell most product lines, and already have these products for many other vehicles. http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/sale...bos/Turbo_Kits

I'd like to gauge interest for those of you that own these cars or are thinking about purchasing them.

1) The turbo kits / intercooler / fuel mods and exhaust can be installed by the average joe. The instructions will be fairly clear for someone that has worked on a car before. Our shop is in Portland, OR which will not be possible for many of you to come here. How many would be willing to attempt the installation and/or have their local shop do the work?

2) Would it be important for you to have an option to revert back to a "warranty" state? The turbo kits are easily uninstallable. All factory pieces will need to be saved and it will be much easier if you do the work yourself.

3) What power level would you like to achieve. I am proposing 3 options. stage 1 would be roughly 300rwhp - very low boost, stage 2 would be 350rwhp - low boost and stage 3 would be 400rwhp - moderate boost. Would these power levels be sufficient? Would there be interest in a 500 and 600rwhp option?

4) Most people like to recirculate the wastegate output which makes the turbo barely noticeable soundwise. This recirculation costs about 10rwhp. Would anybody want an open wastegate (which will make an audible exhaust note at full boost?)

If you have any questions for me or would like to add any information to this thread I'd greatly appreciate it. This communication helps us hit the market with better products that are better tailored for you.

Thanks.
Chris.
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      05-23-2005, 06:53 PM   #2
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1) yes yes yes, if you can make a turbo kit that was truly a DIY i guarantee you will sell a buttload of these.

2) yea that would be good, especially for the younger crowd who are leasing the car and need to get it back to stock (i used to be one of those ppl !

3) I think most people would want exactly what you said, because i think most ppl are interested in having something safe for the engine rather then the most power available. I think thats why the new SK+ ASA supercharger is getting popular for the e46, even though its a bit less power its extremly safe. Of course the highpower option is really important because the speedfreaks in us want the most power no matter what. so stage 3 should be up there in power


cant wait to see the kit come out, and i'll be in line for one, if you can make a reliable, dyno proven kit, that actually can work seamlessly with the ECU, we dont like to see error/obd codes our dash

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      05-23-2005, 09:03 PM   #3
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awesome, as long its price is reasonable, and what type if engine mangments is needed to get it tune right
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      05-23-2005, 09:30 PM   #4
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1) if there are clear instructions for the average joe I'd be willing to try an install myself (if I have a garage install this, how many hours would you estimate install takes?)
2) definite, want the option to revert back to stock easily if I decide to sell the car one day
3) stage 1 and stage 2 would be enough for me... 350hp nice!
4) I'd like a recirculated wastegate... all that turbo hissing is good on japanese sports cars, but not on my bmw

Have you guys successfully developed E46 applications in the past? I'd be interested if this was run at a safe psi level and it was demonstrated that the the new 3 series engine can handle the boost. Thanks.
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      05-24-2005, 12:55 AM   #5
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MarkE90M3.... Absolutely.. Safety is a absolute must. The last thing I want to do is blow up 2 brand new BMW's I just bought. I'm still debating on whether to include a turbo that is incapable of flowing enough to blow up the motor or using a better flowing turbo and relying on the wastegate. The 2nd option is WAY preferable in terms of power output, cooler intake charge, and better performance over repeated blasts. The downside of the 2nd option is that if someone fails to hook up the boost controller and wastegate properly, they could overboost. I may just use various wastegate springs in the different kits so that even someone who didn't know what they were doing would still have trouble creating too much boost.

The other issue that is very important to me as a vehicle owner is to be able to see 2 things. #1) a/f ratio and #2) boost level. There are various things that need to happen as boost is increased. #1 - fuel must be increased. This can be done with a simple fuel riser, a piggyback fuel computer or a stand-alone. My preference would be the cheaper route as there are no plug-n-play stand-alones for this car and probably won't be for atleast 5 years. I will run both a boost gauge and a wide-band gauge in both of my R&D vehicles. It would be highly recommended for anybody installing these to utilize both of these to ensure the installation is done properly. Would you be willing to run them if a suitable pillar pod was constructed? I can work with several of our pillar pod manufacturers to create these. It will add some $$'s to the overall cost of the kits but would provide a LOT of safety and allow for tunability with a boost controller and optional fuel computer.

The supercharger option is never as good in my opinion. Upside is you get instant throttle response, downside is you lose more gas mileage, it produces less power and it changing boost levels requires a pulley change.

We will provide for a test pipe option (eliminate cats) which will indeed trip the engine codes. These codes are not desireable and will need to be defeated with an obd2 faker and we will provide the wiring diagram for that. I believe we could still easily achieve the 400rwhp without removing the cats and that would be my preference.

EVO_S4... I am not as familiar with the BMW as I am with other vehicles. We install stand-alones in most of the cars we build and tune. That is not the route I want to take here. I want a simple, cost effective way to trick the fuel injectors to inject more fuel (a simple fuel riser increasing fuel pressure is a standard on many newer vehicles). Also tricking the ECU to not thinking the MAF is flowing as much is usually also required. This can be done very simply as well.

Terps...

1) there will be very clear instructions. We will determine at what power levels fuel injectors and a fuel pump is required. I'm guessing the stock injectors and fuel pump could handle 300rwhp which will reduce the installation time. We will continue to turn the boost up until we run out of fuel pressure and/or injectors. I'll back the boost down about 50rwhp and make that the requirement for fuel modifications. I'll know what those are when we get there. The FMIC will require about 4 hours and the turbo kit, wastegate, intake, BOV, etc will require about 8 hours. Fuel changes will require about 3 hours if needed.

2) we want everything to remain stock. No cutting, drilling, etc. I want to be able to resell or warranty my BMW's as well.

4) we will probably make the kit a mandatory recirculate on both the BOV and wastegate so it will be virtually impossible for someone to know you have a turbo in it. There will probably be a barely noticeable high frequency pitch under full boost conditions that is not offensive but will happen due to the open element air filter. This is typical with nearly all turbo cars unless they have built in huge air-boxes that dampen this sound.

We have not developed any E46 applications at this point. We build and install similar mods in many other vehicles, however. My own personal Supra has over 1000rwhp and runs 9's in the 1/4 mile. The Supra is only a 3.0L motor! We have built everything from Hummer H4's to Maserati's to Honda Civics and everything in between. I think the BMW will be an awesome application for our next kit because of the similarities to our other turbo kits which are designed for the 3.0L powerplants, the marketshare that BMW is commanding and the fact that I want to use it as a daily driver. My girlfriend will be daily driving the 330i and I will be driving the 530i. This will ensure our new kits reliability prior to shipment.

Great feedback....

Take care,
Chris.
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      05-24-2005, 02:47 AM   #6
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Not to burst anyones bubble here, but I have an interesting story about a bolt-on turbo kit. My friend had a brand new Integra GS-R. He purchased one of those bolt-on turbo kits when the car had like 400 miles on it. Well, to make a long story short, he ended up blowing the motor because of a faulty wastegate (so he says). He then returned it to original and took the car to the dealership. The dealer inspected it and told him to take a hike. They new within a few seconds that he had a turbo kit installed. I am guessing they did a bore-scope on it, and saw that the pistons were anililated. I have always been of the opinion that you should never turbo an engine that wasn't engineered for turbos. Especially a new car that costs A LOT of money. Just my .02 cents.....
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      05-24-2005, 09:17 AM   #7
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Hey I don't have that much to add to what was already said but I hope to see aftermarket tuning options like this! As long as the proper R&D is put into the product, I'd consider it.
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      05-24-2005, 09:48 AM   #8
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I encourage members to provide any input/feedback you may have, even if you don't plan on turbocharging your car. It's nice to see a product developer asking for feedback on a product before development and this is your chance to have a say in how an E90 aftermarket product turns out. At the very least your opinion may provide for a better product for those who choose to go this route in the future.
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      05-24-2005, 09:57 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voltron1011
Not to burst anyones bubble here, but I have an interesting story about a bolt-on turbo kit. My friend had a brand new Integra GS-R. He purchased one of those bolt-on turbo kits when the car had like 400 miles on it. Well, to make a long story short, he ended up blowing the motor because of a faulty wastegate (so he says). He then returned it to original and took the car to the dealership. The dealer inspected it and told him to take a hike. They new within a few seconds that he had a turbo kit installed. I am guessing they did a bore-scope on it, and saw that the pistons were anililated. I have always been of the opinion that you should never turbo an engine that wasn't engineered for turbos. Especially a new car that costs A LOT of money. Just my .02 cents.....
You are correct in thinking too much boost can cause lead to pre-ignition and possibly detonation. Also, too lean a mixture can cause even more damage than too much boost.

However....

Most NA engines can handle 7 to 10psi of boost. Nearly every supercharger and turbo kit that we sell that is manufacturers by us or by Banks, Paxton, Comptech, Blitz, Greddy, HKS, XS Engineering, ATI Procharger, Vortech, and many others are made for vehicles that were not designed for a turbo or supercharger.

#1, integra motors are not designed like the 3.0L BMW motor. They don't even have a solid block and the walls are easy to bust with a little pre-ignition and too much boost. Plus some integra and Civic owners will turn the boost up higher than the recommendation (which is 7 psi for the stock block on that vehicle).

I've also spoken with my local BMW dealership and they said they have no problem warranting a motor that has been modified. Not to say this will be the same for every BMW dealership, but many will not go through a thorough inspection to determine if the vehicle was indeed modified, and a clean installation will be impossible to diagnose anyway.

The key with any power adder is to ensure the safety and reliability of the engine. Your friend that blew up his motor should not have been hot rodding with only 400 miles on the vehicle. A motor needs proper break in time for everything to seat properly.

These stage 1-3 kits will not be providing boost levels that are high enough to cause an adequate risk. If improper care is done on ANY vehicle (even a prior turbocharged vehicle) detonation can result and can damage the motor. This is very important in considering what products you buy and especially... who does the work.

Take care,
Chris.
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      05-24-2005, 02:08 PM   #10
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hay HorsepowerFreak will you be making the kits to work with the 325? they have almost the same engin as the 330!!! i would like it alot if you made them for the 325 too!
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      05-24-2005, 05:16 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romeo26
hay HorsepowerFreak will you be making the kits to work with the 325? they have almost the same engin as the 330!!! i would like it alot if you made them for the 325 too!
Yes... That is very possible.

We're going to start development on the 330i and 530i within the next month. Development R&D & production finalization takes about 3 months, with another 1-2 months for testing and documentation. I would say that we could start on the 325i around the end of this year if we do it at all.

Take care,
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      05-24-2005, 05:19 PM   #12
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Horsepower freak, I have two questions:

1) Would you have to defeat VANOS on the engine?
2) Considering that the redline is 7000 RPM...how much lag will there be before Turbo kicks in (basically what size Turbine would you offer)?

Aside from that, I don't think you would sell many of these. Many luxury car owners are not DIY'ers, they don't even change their own oil. Also, the rumored turbocharged 335i might cut into some of your sales...because you'll have to compete with a BMW-warrantied turboed car. But that's just a rumor. I really don't see a lot of 530i owners turboing their car.

On the flipside, if you made it cheap enough...I don't know how a BMW racer can resist a 330i that can keep up with an Evo or STI.

Me personally, if I bought a Bimmer...I wouldn't turbo it.
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      05-24-2005, 10:49 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wannabe
Horsepower freak, I have two questions:

1) Would you have to defeat VANOS on the engine?
2) Considering that the redline is 7000 RPM...how much lag will there be before Turbo kicks in (basically what size Turbine would you offer)?

Aside from that, I don't think you would sell many of these. Many luxury car owners are not DIY'ers, they don't even change their own oil. Also, the rumored turbocharged 335i might cut into some of your sales...because you'll have to compete with a BMW-warrantied turboed car. But that's just a rumor. I really don't see a lot of 530i owners turboing their car.

On the flipside, if you made it cheap enough...I don't know how a BMW racer can resist a 330i that can keep up with an Evo or STI.

Me personally, if I bought a Bimmer...I wouldn't turbo it.
I don't see any need to defeat Vanos. The variable valve timing shouldn't be affected too much. Turbo Lag will be pretty minor. We're not talking about big turbos here, my best guess right now would be a 60mm wheel with a .68 a/r for the stage 3 or quite possibly smaller. Boost will start hitting at around 2,500rpm with full boost by 3,800rpm.

Here's my belief about the turbo kit market for new 330i's and 530i's.... I think there's a huge market, just not many suppliers of parts. I also think BMW owners are more into performance than Mercedes, Lexus and Jaguar owners. Another advantage is that these cars are selling like hotcakes and the 3 series has typically been a best seller for quite some time. The other benefit is that a well designed kit can sell for many many years to come.

Standard performance shops will easily be able to install these kits so the non-mechanic types will still be able to run them. We will also provide for vehicle transport where necessary to install them at our facility here.

We will be providing videos, dyno charts, complete instructions and full disclosure of the turbo kit/intercooler/exhaust/fuel/etc. We typically provide a pre-release discount for pre-orders and what usually happens is once a few people start running around with the kits, everybody starts to want them.

My goal is to make this happen for the BMW, and hopefully I can get enough feedback to penetrate this market without missing the boat.

Chris.
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      05-25-2005, 12:28 AM   #14
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hay HorsepowerFreak what you are doing is very good for us bmw owners. actually giving us options rather than using the AA option (which is very expensive and the kits from them looks complicated) all youll need to do is price the kit lower then AA then you will have the BMW market for turbos. well hope you do make a kit for the BMW.
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      05-25-2005, 02:31 AM   #15
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This is defintely interesting. I think my main focus will be on reliability. The car itself is already such a joy to drive and the power feels abundant, not a lot of gain is really necessary as long as the kit is not ridiculously priced. My last car had a custom turbo, and I stressed the point of reliability to the shop. I ran 7psi without really any major problems. Slight oil leaks here, a gasket replaced there, nothing catostrophic. Of course the car ran full stand-alone AEM ecu for management.

This might be an impossible desire to have, but if I can have just close to 280-300 hp at wheels without having to worry about things going wrong while driving to vegas, or up the mountains, then I would definitely go for it.

Two major incidents with my turbo, just to let you guys know...
One time I was running with an evo on 57 south, took it up to about 140 and lifted off, and immediately saw white smoke spewing. Pulled off the freeway and realized oil's empty, but I couldn't find the leak (late at night with no flashlight). Adding oil was useless as it leaked right out, so I ended up having it towed. The next day the shop found the rubber hose to the oil cooler was ripped off by something. With the help of AAA, the fix cost me $40, $0 towing. No big deal.

Another time, I went to big bear to snowboard. At the end of the day we were gonna head off the mountain, and when I started up my car I heard a loud pop and flushing sound and saw oil pouring out the bottom. Make a long story short, I was stuck on the mountain for 2 hours, running around buying tools, oil, flashlight, then jumper and got the leak fixed. It was the hose to the oil cooler again.

So both times of major problem were due to the darn oil cooler, which I dont even really need, and could've probably avoided with a steel braided hose. The cost to fix was insignificant, but its the trouble of fixing, the embarrasment of white smoke, and the time it takes.

Well, I would want a kit that would worry free, and I would pay extra just to have that insurance.
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      05-25-2005, 12:53 PM   #16
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HorsepowerFreak, I really think you need to do a lot of market research on this one. Judging from some of the posters on this forum and what I've seen on the road...most people buy a Bimmer for 'status'...sure performance is also a consideration, but how much into performance can U.S. BMW owners be if most of them opt for the automatic?

Sure there are lots of BMW's sold and market share is huge...that tells me that people are already happy with the car's performance. There are a lot of things to consider when adding a turbo to a car not designed to be turboed. Does the car really need that much power? Will it upset the balance of the car? Will the car's drivetrain be able to handle the added power?

Not only that, but I'm guessing most people lease a Bimmer...these people would most likely not even consider a turbo. Considering how expensive the car is, and the possibility that the warranty could be voided would also scare away the minority of people that buy the car straight out.

Also, people have to think about the possibility that if you get into an accident and the insurance company discovers that you turboed the car...they will not give you ANY money. If you were honest enough to pay the extra insurance for the turbo...your premiums would increase by a lot.

I currently drive a 2002 Honda Civic Si...a truly underpowered car. If any car ever produced needed to be turboed...it would be the Si. But I was on the forums 2 years ago when Turbo kits started coming out and there were only a small number of people that did it. Most people opted to keep the motor naturally aspirated.

Believe me, being a performance oriented guy...it would be a dream to have 300-400 HP at the rear wheels of a BMW...but guys like me and the people that have posted on this thread are rare. To be honest...I think the people that have posted on this thread that said they would get it...only half would really consider it.

Just letting you know of my doubts...I would hate to see you spend a lot of money on R&D and not get it back in return. I think you need to read through this forum a little more and you'll start to see what I see.

I think you should take a poll, you can do that on this forum...and ask people if they would honestly spend $$$ on a turbo kit and install. Let them know about the possibilities of voided warranties and the insurance company not paying up. This would be interesting to see.
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      05-25-2005, 01:32 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wannabe
HorsepowerFreak, I really think you need to do a lot of market research on this one. Judging from some of the posters on this forum and what I've seen on the road...most people buy a Bimmer for 'status'...sure performance is also a consideration, but how much into performance can U.S. BMW owners be if most of them opt for the automatic?

Sure there are lots of BMW's sold and market share is huge...that tells me that people are already happy with the car's performance. There are a lot of things to consider when adding a turbo to a car not designed to be turboed. Does the car really need that much power? Will it upset the balance of the car? Will the car's drivetrain be able to handle the added power?

Not only that, but I'm guessing most people lease a Bimmer...these people would most likely not even consider a turbo. Considering how expensive the car is, and the possibility that the warranty could be voided would also scare away the minority of people that buy the car straight out.

Also, people have to think about the possibility that if you get into an accident and the insurance company discovers that you turboed the car...they will not give you ANY money. If you were honest enough to pay the extra insurance for the turbo...your premiums would increase by a lot.

I currently drive a 2002 Honda Civic Si...a truly underpowered car. If any car ever produced needed to be turboed...it would be the Si. But I was on the forums 2 years ago when Turbo kits started coming out and there were only a small number of people that did it. Most people opted to keep the motor naturally aspirated.

Believe me, being a performance oriented guy...it would be a dream to have 300-400 HP at the rear wheels of a BMW...but guys like me and the people that have posted on this thread are rare. To be honest...I think the people that have posted on this thread that said they would get it...only half would really consider it.

Just letting you know of my doubts...I would hate to see you spend a lot of money on R&D and not get it back in return. I think you need to read through this forum a little more and you'll start to see what I see.

I think you should take a poll, you can do that on this forum...and ask people if they would honestly spend $$$ on a turbo kit and install. Let them know about the possibilities of voided warranties and the insurance company not paying up. This would be interesting to see.
Points well taken. There are DEFINITELY people that would not want to modify their BMW in any way. Especially if it voided their warranty and insurance claims. I like the poll idea and will post a poll shortly.

By law, insurance must cover your vehicle, whether you've modified it or not. They don't have a choice. I recently had a wheel come off on a 1,000rwhp Supra and ended up in a ditch. It was no where near stock, it had a roll cage, gauges everywhere, and more bling in the motor than I'm sure they're used to seeing. Not only did they cover the car, but also made it a no-fault accident since the vehicle actually sheered all 5 wheel studs off the wheel hub.

Most dealerships will warranty a modified vehicle because they make a ton of money on warranty claims.

We sell turbo and supercharger kits for nearly every vehicle known to man, and trust me, where there's a car, somebody has built a turbo kit for it.

The feedback I'm looking for is not whether people will buy it. I believe I already know the answer to that question. The questions I have are 1) would you want the option to remove your catalytic converter for a test pipe for an additional 35rwhp? 2) would you want the wastegate to outlet into the atmosphere instead of back into the exhaust for an additional 20rhwp? 3) if reliability was not an issue, what price would you pay to get to 300rwhp, 350rwhp and 400rwhp?

Thanks again for all the feedback.

Chris.
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      05-25-2005, 04:22 PM   #18
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I just called my insurance company, Progressive, they said that they have to know about the modification before a claim for them to cover it. They said, if they didn't know about the modification...they would cover $1000. If you tell them about the modifications, they will raise the premium and cover up to $5000. So I guess you are right, they'll cover the car...for some reason I have heard or believed that putting a turbo on your car will invalidate the insurance claim.

About the warranty stuff, in your original post #2 asked if it would be important to revert back to "warranty" state. But now you are saying most dealerships will cover it? Besides, there was a post on here where an unmodified BMW caught fire and even then BMW didn't cover it under warranty. Now you're telling me a car with a turbo, a test pipe (that throws off all sorts of engine codes), and a modified ECU will be covered under warranty? I find that hard to believe. The dealer might want to make money, but the decision still lies with BMW doesn't it?

I'm not in the turbo business, so I don't know...but are you telling me there is nothing to worry about with regards to warranty and insurance claims after installing a turbo?
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      05-25-2005, 04:49 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wannabe
I just called my insurance company, Progressive, they said that they have to know about the modification before a claim for them to cover it. They said, if they didn't know about the modification...they would cover $1000. If you tell them about the modifications, they will raise the premium and cover up to $5000. So I guess you are right, they'll cover the car...for some reason I have heard or believed that putting a turbo on your car will invalidate the insurance claim.

About the warranty stuff, in your original post #2 asked if it would be important to revert back to "warranty" state. But now you are saying most dealerships will cover it? Besides, there was a post on here where an unmodified BMW caught fire and even then BMW didn't cover it under warranty. Now you're telling me a car with a turbo, a test pipe (that throws off all sorts of engine codes), and a modified ECU will be covered under warranty? I find that hard to believe. The dealer might want to make money, but the decision still lies with BMW doesn't it?

I'm not in the turbo business, so I don't know...but are you telling me there is nothing to worry about with regards to warranty and insurance claims after installing a turbo?
I'm definitely not saying there is nothing to worry about with warranty claims. The dealership can certainly say "no". The insurance company will definitely cover your vehicle whether there's a turbo kit in it or not. They will often cover the cost of the turbo kit as well if it is damaged in an accident. If it was me and I had a warranty claim such as a transmission or something related, I would probably pull my turbo kit off for the warranty work to be done and then put it back on afterwards just to be safe.

Chris.
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      05-25-2005, 05:02 PM   #20
romeo26
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hay wannabe go to www.bmw-forums.com and youll see a lot of people there who mod there Bmw's almost as much as those little civics. there are people on that board where if they found a turbo at a resonable price (way below AA's price) then they will get the turbos from horsepowerfreak then AA. i know i would if it was cheaper!!! because i think the AA turbo kit is like 10g(for e46 m3) and they dont recomend you to put it on your self unless you are a mechanic!! i dont know how much i would pay for 350hp on the 325i/ci but if its lower then AA then ill get it. and bout the bmw catching on fire i think that was a freak accedent. i think that must of been bs because i didnt hear bout it in news, or online. for a high profile company like Bmw i think theyll put it in the papers. dont you think so??
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      05-25-2005, 05:08 PM   #21
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romeo26, thanks. I'll check it out. This is the only BMW forum I've consistently read and posted.

Towards your statement "little civics"...it was interesting, but when I was in Europe, I picked up a magazine that compared an e46, a civic, and a prius...it had their pictures side-by-side to scale with their dimensions. I was surprised to see that the civic was the same size dimesionally and the prius was actually bigger than the e46. So "little" civics, but also "little" BMWs.
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      05-25-2005, 05:12 PM   #22
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yah i no but my gf calls her four door civic little, i think my 2 door e30 is the same size as her car but shes more comfortable in my car though, dont know why. well sry for offending you, if i did.
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