E90Post
 


TireRack
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > AUDIO/VIDEO + BLUETOOTH + Electronics/Alarm/Software > Help with an amp choice



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      01-29-2013, 08:44 AM   #23
Cheesegeezer
Private
 
Cheesegeezer's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 M Sport
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: From Reading, Live in Aberdeen

Posts: 57
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by makkan00 View Post
Here is a tip for you.

A) BMW OEM HU ----> Bit one/ ten (processing) -----> amplifier ----> drivers (active or passive)

B) P80RS (processing & time allignment) -----> amplifier ----> drivers. (active or passive)

In above two routes, chances of noise is less in that system where there is less equipment.

Also, bit one / ten will take the signals and flat them first of all and then recreate the sound signals for the HU. With P80RS, signals will be coming directly from the HU (pure form). I may be wrong but IMO, P80RS seems to work better.
The idea of the 80PRS is certainly favourable, I used to own a 8400 unit in my last install and i loved it for the customisation you had with the outputs. Also this has a USB in which will take the digital signal direct from the ipad mini (only concern is the charging function).

I'm still set on getting a 3 way up front. 6.5" either in door or under seats and the Hertz Mille's (drivers only - no passive crossovers) are what I have my heart set on now. So keepin the active system (bear in mind I have never run an active system before, but have read many pros for doing so)..... I will have

1 x 4ch amp for tweets & hi mid - supplied by front RCA output from HU
1 x 4ch amp bridged to 2ch for 6.5" woofers - supplied by rear RCA output from HU
1 x mono amp driving Sub - supplied by sub output from HU

My dilemna comes for the tweets and hi mids. Most amps are set up for HP or LP x-overs. Where the hi mid really needs to be bandpass and tweets the same. As I only have front output from HU driving this, I would imagine I will need to an active X-over here anyway to get the separation that I need(I think). Is this not the case, am I looking too deep into this.

Does anyone know of any good band pass amplifiers out there, I've had a look but most seem to be US brands unavailable here in the UK.

EDIT: Ground Zero Amps look like a likely winner for my price range, so 2 of these and 1 of these. I've also changed my mind to the Hertz HX300d Sub - after reading many reviews and a good road test, I think it will complement the system.

Once again.... thanks.
__________________
The Difference between Genius and insanity??............. Is the measure of success!

My Build Thread

Last edited by Cheesegeezer; 01-29-2013 at 09:39 AM.
Cheesegeezer is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      01-29-2013, 08:48 AM   #24
kaigoss69
Brigadier General
 
kaigoss69's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 335i
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: JAX

Posts: 3,028
iTrader: (5)

JBL MS amps do bandpass I believe.
__________________
Mobridge DA2 > JBL MS-8 > JL Audio HD600/4 > (3) Hybrid Audio L3SE & (2) Rainbow Cal25; JL Audio HD900/5 > (2) Morel HCW-10 & (1) IDMax 15
kaigoss69 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-29-2013, 09:47 AM   #25
Cheesegeezer
Private
 
Cheesegeezer's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 M Sport
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: From Reading, Live in Aberdeen

Posts: 57
iTrader: (0)

I did find some ground zero amps that I quite like the sound of, but I edited my post above rather than repost.

Thanks for the input it's much appreciated.
__________________
The Difference between Genius and insanity??............. Is the measure of success!

My Build Thread
Cheesegeezer is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      01-29-2013, 10:40 AM   #26
kaigoss69
Brigadier General
 
kaigoss69's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 335i
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: JAX

Posts: 3,028
iTrader: (5)

Are you aware of the potential current draw those three amps would require from your electrical system?
__________________
Mobridge DA2 > JBL MS-8 > JL Audio HD600/4 > (3) Hybrid Audio L3SE & (2) Rainbow Cal25; JL Audio HD900/5 > (2) Morel HCW-10 & (1) IDMax 15
kaigoss69 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-29-2013, 11:20 AM   #27
makkan00
Major General
 
makkan00's Avatar
 
Drives: E91 330D
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Essex

Posts: 7,072
iTrader: (48)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesegeezer View Post
1 x 4ch amp for tweets & hi mid - supplied by front RCA output from HU
1 x 4ch amp bridged to 2ch for 6.5" woofers - supplied by rear RCA output from HU
1 x mono amp driving Sub - supplied by sub output from HU

My dilemna comes for the tweets and hi mids. Most amps are set up for HP or LP x-overs. Where the hi mid really needs to be bandpass and tweets the same.

I suggest you to read the manual of P80RS.

If you are going for active, then the HU will do the job for you.
If you select the network mode on this Pioneer HU, then you will get LOW, MID & HIGH signals to RCA compared to front, rear and Sub.

I am going down the same route and you'd require to setup the HU in network mode.

So
High --> Amp ---> tweeters (no xovers requires on amp, use HU for xover)
mid ---> Amp ---> Mid range drivers (no xovers requires on amp, use HU for xover)
low ---> Amp ---> under seats drivers (see further details down)


Now things get complicated when you need to separate under seats and sub.

Here you require semi-active system. How you'd do it?

Lets say on HU, you selet xover for low range drivers as 200Hz.
So LP setting for your low range driver is actively set by HU.

The xover settings b.w your under seats and sub needs to be set at amps.

But since this HU comes with auto timing, you'd do that first.

So you set up the system as I mentioned above and do auto calibration and timing (without the boot sub). HU will setup all the attribute as per your drivers and per your car's interior.

Once you have all the timing / calibration done, then you add the boot sub. (that will be there for feeling).

Now since your LP settings for low range drivers are actively set at HU as 200Hz (for example).

On the amp for underseat, set xovers as 60-70Hz HP. (it will be band passed automatically since HU will be controlling upper limits for these drivers).

And on the amp for boot sub, set the LP filter to 60-70 LP and infra sonic filter shold do the job for lower end (if you have ported / free air sub).

Few things to consider though, your amp for rear boot should have a function where if it takes stereo signals, it should be automatically convert them to mono and fire you sub.

Also your amplifier for the sub should have 24 dB crossover settings and ideally for your under seats.


The only draw back is that you boot sub is not time alligned but as mentioned earlier, that will be there to give you feeling and not sound.


I am going down the same route though I am experimenting it on 88PRS.

HTH.
__________________

Last edited by makkan00; 01-29-2013 at 03:39 PM.
makkan00 is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      01-29-2013, 11:31 AM   #28
Cheesegeezer
Private
 
Cheesegeezer's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 M Sport
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: From Reading, Live in Aberdeen

Posts: 57
iTrader: (0)

Yeah, I am but I will not be pumping all of those W to the speakers. Off hand do you know what the alternater distributes from the 320d, I think it's 150A.

The manuals for those amps recommend a 200A for the 4ch and 180A for the mono, which is something the electrical system will never give. I'll have to look into some more. I only really need the bandpass for tweets & hi mids. Also I'll check out the JBL amps you suggest also.
__________________
The Difference between Genius and insanity??............. Is the measure of success!

My Build Thread
Cheesegeezer is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      01-29-2013, 12:30 PM   #29
Cheesegeezer
Private
 
Cheesegeezer's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 M Sport
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: From Reading, Live in Aberdeen

Posts: 57
iTrader: (0)

makkan...... You legend!!! (Why are there no "Thanks" buttons or Rep buttons on here)I have been downloading the manuals for everything, just not got round to reading them all and only glanced over the 80PRS one. I should have RTFM to understand better. (Slap on the wrist for me!!)

Well that will save me a few quid on selecting my amps. I have chosen the Pioneer PRS D420s as my 4ch amps then.

Makkan, do you have a "build thread" at all for your install/trails, would be interesting to see your progress.

Cheers for info..... I'm off to do some reading now!!
__________________
The Difference between Genius and insanity??............. Is the measure of success!

My Build Thread
Cheesegeezer is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      01-29-2013, 03:23 PM   #30
taibanl
Brigadier General
 
taibanl's Avatar
 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: NA

Posts: 3,542
iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesegeezer View Post
Thanks Kaigoss, having looked more at the UK base system, the underseats are 6.5" any way which will allow me get the mid sound I'm after, i think.
Those 6.5 are still in an 8" (200cm) enclosure; I would recommend pulling them out and dropping an 8 into the enclosure.
taibanl is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-29-2013, 03:46 PM   #31
makkan00
Major General
 
makkan00's Avatar
 
Drives: E91 330D
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Essex

Posts: 7,072
iTrader: (48)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesegeezer View Post
makkan...... You legend!!! (Why are there no "Thanks" buttons or Rep buttons on here)I have been downloading the manuals for everything, just not got round to reading them all and only glanced over the 80PRS one. I should have RTFM to understand better. (Slap on the wrist for me!!)

Well that will save me a few quid on selecting my amps. I have chosen the Pioneer PRS D420s as my 4ch amps then.

Makkan, do you have a "build thread" at all for your install/trails, would be interesting to see your progress.

Cheers for info..... I'm off to do some reading now!!

Problem is that I keep changing things around.
I have not started my active build yet (would be mak's stage 3 sound system), but it will be pretty much what I have mentioned above.

Also, when you get P80RS, make sure that you update its firmware as new firmware was out few days ago.

I really want P80RS, but I am not sure how much I would gain compared to BMW OEM HU, so started with 88PRS.

I am still waiting for few bits and bobs.


Re: amps, which ever you go for, please make sure that they should be quality amps, otherwise you will not get max out of going active. One example is that if your amps is to produce 20Khz, that means 20K vibrations / secs and just think, how hard is it for amp and a driver.
__________________
makkan00 is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      01-29-2013, 04:33 PM   #32
Cheesegeezer
Private
 
Cheesegeezer's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 M Sport
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: From Reading, Live in Aberdeen

Posts: 57
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
Those 6.5 are still in an 8" (200cm) enclosure; I would recommend pulling them out and dropping an 8 into the enclosure.
Didn't know that... Thanks for the info.

Quote:
Originally Posted by makkan00 View Post
Problem is that I keep changing things around.
I have not started my active build yet (would be mak's stage 3 sound system), but it will be pretty much what I have mentioned above.

Also, when you get P80RS, make sure that you update its firmware as new firmware was out few days ago.

I really want P80RS, but I am not sure how much I would gain compared to BMW OEM HU, so started with 88PRS.

I am still waiting for few bits and bobs.


Re: amps, which ever you go for, please make sure that they should be quality amps, otherwise you will not get max out of going active. One example is that if your amps is to produce 20Khz, that means 20K vibrations / secs and just think, how hard is it for amp and a driver.
Cheers Mak, if I may call you that (it's on your siggi). I've been umming and arrrhing at AMPs for ages as you can guess by the thread title. Also been reading the 80PRS manual, it makes more sense now but I think it will be a practical trial once the rig is in the car and I can start playing with settings. The mute function for speaker sets seems like a rather good idea, to isolate your xover points for a freq range.

So here are the freq of the Milles (I'm using this thread to store alot of info for my install, it maybe useful for someone in the future... who knows.)

ML280 - tweets.... 1.8Khz @ 12db (HPF) range from 1.3Khz - 25Khz Approx 100W RMS
ML700 - Hi Mids... 250hz @ 12db (HPF) range from 200h - 14Khz Approx 70W RMS
ML1600 - Mids..... range from 40hz - 7Khz Approx 150W RMS
HX300D - Sub..... range from 28hz - 700hz Approx 600W RMS

So the PRS D420 uses 12db slopes for their cutoffs. And is claimed to have a Freq Response from 10hz to 50Khz (hmmm, thats probably some marketing BS). I think for the power its suited well at 4ch and 2channel.

I've also found this rather useful Wire Gauge Calculator for speaker wires.

Edging Closer to final summary of shopping list.
__________________
The Difference between Genius and insanity??............. Is the measure of success!

My Build Thread

Last edited by Cheesegeezer; 01-29-2013 at 04:38 PM.
Cheesegeezer is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      01-29-2013, 06:15 PM   #33
sohlman
Second Lieutenant
 
sohlman's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 330iSE
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Surrey

Posts: 205
iTrader: (0)

You have neglected to have the mb quart 3 way system purpose built for the e90/1/2/3 priced at £430. This is what is going in my car along with the pioneer 80prs.

Amp quality is important I am going with genesis in my application.

My car installer highly recommend audison and hertz amps. The 5 channel audison hp5 is tiny in footprint and very meaty in power and would power mids and tweets with two channels, underseats
With the other two and still have 700wrms left for a sub in the boot. It also fits nicely in boot side where cd changer normally lives.
__________________
E90 330i SE Auto Graphite Grey Metalic
sohlman is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-29-2013, 07:31 PM   #34
Cheesegeezer
Private
 
Cheesegeezer's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 M Sport
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: From Reading, Live in Aberdeen

Posts: 57
iTrader: (0)

Been looking at the Hertz Amps however the HP range, it looks like are discontinued, I had been considering the HDP4 amp.

But I must say I've just stumbled across a corker of an amp from rainbow.... the iPaul range... must say they do have a fair bit of eye candy about them and have read some good reviews about them (however.... must do more reading).

EDIT: have the iPaul amps really been around this long??? Well I suppose the saying stands.... If it ain't broke... Don't fix it!!

Saw this review, there dont seem to be that many any more.
__________________
The Difference between Genius and insanity??............. Is the measure of success!

My Build Thread

Last edited by Cheesegeezer; 01-31-2013 at 11:26 AM.
Cheesegeezer is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      01-31-2013, 10:40 AM   #35
Cheesegeezer
Private
 
Cheesegeezer's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 M Sport
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: From Reading, Live in Aberdeen

Posts: 57
iTrader: (0)

So looks like my shopping list may have changed, again!!

I'm considering the Rainbow CS 365 Vanadium for upfront now (shame you can't just buy the drivers as ships with Xover). I've read nothing but good reviews about them and a lot of people have preffered the tweeter from them as they are not harsh.

What do you guys think??? Go with the Rainbows or stick with the Hertz Mille (Drivers only).

Gonna go for the iPaul Amps too.. 2 x 4.300

Sticking with the Hertz HX300D Sub and the Ground Zero Hydrogen GZHA1.1200DXII amp but may use the iPaul DM2000 to keep continuity of equipment (although it will be hidden anyway).

Any Thoughts (other than filling under seats with 8" subs - this may come later)
__________________
The Difference between Genius and insanity??............. Is the measure of success!

My Build Thread
Cheesegeezer is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      02-01-2013, 07:12 AM   #36
Cheesegeezer
Private
 
Cheesegeezer's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 M Sport
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: From Reading, Live in Aberdeen

Posts: 57
iTrader: (0)

Found a really good source of info regarding set up from VP Electricity, granted its from a 1 series but packed full of great info on what not to do with audio, but if you do it here's how to sort it

Anyway for anyone interested Linky Here

I was toying with the idea of some Dynaudio Esotec MW 172 8" under seats and was worried about mounting depth, hence i stumbled across the above post and it can be done, so i'm happy i have more options than SWS or Jenhert
__________________
The Difference between Genius and insanity??............. Is the measure of success!

My Build Thread
Cheesegeezer is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      02-01-2013, 08:40 AM   #37
kaigoss69
Brigadier General
 
kaigoss69's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 335i
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: JAX

Posts: 3,028
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesegeezer View Post
Found a really good source of info regarding set up from VP Electricity, granted its from a 1 series but packed full of great info on what not to do with audio, but if you do it here's how to sort it

Anyway for anyone interested Linky Here

I was toying with the idea of some Dynaudio Esotec MW 172 8" under seats and was worried about mounting depth, hence i stumbled across the above post and it can be done, so i'm happy i have more options than SWS or Jenhert
The MW-172 is too deep, no way they fit. MW-182 is actually more shallow, but those may still not fit and if they do, you would have to mod the enclosures heavily. Rainbow WOB200 I'm sure fits, but I haven't seen any proof (yet).
__________________
Mobridge DA2 > JBL MS-8 > JL Audio HD600/4 > (3) Hybrid Audio L3SE & (2) Rainbow Cal25; JL Audio HD900/5 > (2) Morel HCW-10 & (1) IDMax 15
kaigoss69 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      02-01-2013, 08:55 AM   #38
Cheesegeezer
Private
 
Cheesegeezer's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 M Sport
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: From Reading, Live in Aberdeen

Posts: 57
iTrader: (0)

I tried to edit my post after reading that threat fully, but it wouldnt let me on ipad. So i agree that heavy mods would be required to get deeper mids fitted over the sws or jens.

Cant find the WOB200's in the uk unfortunately.
__________________
The Difference between Genius and insanity??............. Is the measure of success!

My Build Thread
Cheesegeezer is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      02-01-2013, 01:22 PM   #39
kaigoss69
Brigadier General
 
kaigoss69's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 335i
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: JAX

Posts: 3,028
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesegeezer
I tried to edit my post after reading that threat fully, but it wouldnt let me on ipad. So i agree that heavy mods would be required to get deeper mids fitted over the sws or jens.

Cant find the WOB200's in the uk unfortunately.
From memory I believe there exists a model from Ground Zero that seems to be visually identical to the WOB200. Probably from the same build house.
__________________
Mobridge DA2 > JBL MS-8 > JL Audio HD600/4 > (3) Hybrid Audio L3SE & (2) Rainbow Cal25; JL Audio HD900/5 > (2) Morel HCW-10 & (1) IDMax 15
kaigoss69 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      02-01-2013, 04:18 PM   #40
Cheesegeezer
Private
 
Cheesegeezer's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 M Sport
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: From Reading, Live in Aberdeen

Posts: 57
iTrader: (0)

Mmmm i've been looking at Ground Zero when I was choosing AMPs, but never noticed any subs, i'll check them out. Although i did send an email to Rainbow in Germany asking about the 200's, will have to see what they say.
__________________
The Difference between Genius and insanity??............. Is the measure of success!

My Build Thread
Cheesegeezer is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      02-01-2013, 08:09 PM   #41
mob17
Brigadier General
 
mob17's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 335D
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: East Middle Land, UK

Posts: 3,720
iTrader: (4)

Following with interest. Especially your ipad install.

Anyways keep an eye out in the UK clasifieds section in the next day or two....
__________________
2008 E92 335D SE
2010 E90 320D SE
1994 E36 318I SE
1996 E36 316I SE
mob17 is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      02-02-2013, 02:29 AM   #42
Cheesegeezer
Private
 
Cheesegeezer's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 M Sport
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: From Reading, Live in Aberdeen

Posts: 57
iTrader: (0)

Well i got home last night and was rather excited to go and get the new wheels only to find out the bloke had sold it to someone else!!! He gave me my deposit back and that was that!! The thing that annoyed me was he said that he wasnt picking up his new car until yesterday which would have worked out fine for both of us... The human race is such an odd Species!!?!

I'm absolutely gutted! So the hunt is on again. That doesn't mean this project is over, only a minor set back, i can still shop.

But I'm away again tomorrow so think i'll go drown my sorrows in the local boozer and watch England stuff Scotland at rugby up here in Aberdeen LOL
__________________
The Difference between Genius and insanity??............. Is the measure of success!

My Build Thread
Cheesegeezer is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      02-03-2013, 07:01 AM   #43
mob17
Brigadier General
 
mob17's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 335D
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: East Middle Land, UK

Posts: 3,720
iTrader: (4)

In case you missed it http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=799207

__________________
2008 E92 335D SE
2010 E90 320D SE
1994 E36 318I SE
1996 E36 316I SE
mob17 is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      02-03-2013, 04:30 PM   #44
Cheesegeezer
Private
 
Cheesegeezer's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 M Sport
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: From Reading, Live in Aberdeen

Posts: 57
iTrader: (0)

Cheers Mob17 but I'm gonna decline, looks like a tidy setup tho.
__________________
The Difference between Genius and insanity??............. Is the measure of success!

My Build Thread
Cheesegeezer is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:40 AM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST