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      03-07-2013, 04:08 AM   #45
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I'm also in contact with a well-reknowned German tuner right now who has recently developed a single mass steel flywheel. Apparently very well done, balanced and everything, car's supposed to run even quieter than with the stock setup (has been tested on a 600hp 1M Coupť). I might go with this, depending on the price which I do not know yet.

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      03-07-2013, 04:17 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phil200tdi View Post
Didn't expect a power increase - bonus! I guess it will make a big difference to transmission losses due to the lower inertia required to turn a much lighter FW.

I might get these fitted at the same time:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=810291
I've got a set of them on mine but didn't really notice much of an improvements despite my old ones being 70k+ miles old. I'm still undecided on whether to go alu or steel as my car is noisey enough as it is!
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      03-07-2013, 04:18 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux View Post
I'm also in contact with a well-reknowned German tuner right now who has recently developed a single mass steel flywheel. Apparently very well done, balanced and everything, car's supposed to run even quieter than with the stock setup (has been tested on a 600hp 1M Coupť). I might go with this, depending on the price which I do not know yet.

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+1 I'm interested in this myself
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      03-07-2013, 04:53 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phil200tdi View Post
Didn't expect a power increase - bonus! I guess it will make a big difference to transmission losses due to the lower inertia required to turn a much lighter FW.

I might get these fitted at the same time:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=810291
Transmission mounts look good

Yes, a a heavy flywheel takes energy to accelerate, so during the acceleration phase you will have more hp at the wheels.....

I have an alternative method to get a clutch (but only 1 unfortunately) My brother is in Braselton, Georgia (US) at the moment with the ALMS race team he works for.

There is a SPEC dealer 10 minutes from their shop, and they can get the full stage 2+ kit and ally flywheel in for $750 + $500 = $1250 or £825.

So plan is my brother can pick it up and bring it home in his bag (it weighs 14kg all in). No tax risk as he is a race mechanic rushing a repaired part back to the UK

We'll see.....
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      03-07-2013, 05:03 AM   #49
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What are the timescales?

I might wait until yours is done and see how you get on - maybe take a ride!

It was a good plan of mine to tell you your clutch was slipping!!
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      03-07-2013, 07:33 AM   #50
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Thanks, make me the guinea pig

We're talking next week - the US dealer says SPEC have 2 off 335i ally stage2+ sets in stock and can ship to the dealer by next week, then my brother returns on the 22nd March.

At the moment I've had to cut out any 'spirited' acceleration as I don't want to cook the clutch or DMF by slipping it anymore than the limited amount it has already.

Hopefully I can sell the OE clutch and FW, it's only done 42k and is quite capable of running in a standard or mildly tuned car for a lot of miles yet.
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      03-07-2013, 05:16 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idnan View Post
I'm at about 1000miles and the judder is still quite bad and it is difficult to drive at the moment. I'm used to having a heavy clutch coming from the ACT Street that I had on there before. It's good to know that it should get better with a few more miles. I don't doubt that it will hold the power and I'm not a drag strip addict so I'm not so worried about welding it together. If I need a new clutch then I'm going for the Spec stage 3+ which was my initial choice.
So it's barely bedded in. I remember the first trip I took after it was fitted and I was like OMG - a tad on the heavy side and it took full concentration not to stall it or do a smooth start. Doing a quick getaway at a set of lights was tricky for the first 5-7K and it's only now that it's getting more controllable. I'm not too worried about welding it as I don't do any drag starts, but in hindsight it's maybe a bit much to expect the OEM DMF to take the abuse of 500BHP/700NM. Definitely something to think about if I go down the RB route.

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Originally Posted by idnan View Post
Good stuff, I'm going to do mine myself so I don't need fitting.

I'm hopefully going to get INPA working so will look into raising the idle speed if we all go down this route.
Have you got access to a lift as I would find doing this on axle stands a bit tricky. Man handling the gearbox is a two man job. Isn't the idle a map thing or can you do this in INPA? With COBB I would think that this shouldn't be too hard. I got a COBB sitting on my shelf ready to be fitted as soon as I have fitted my ER oil cooler and a few other bits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by idnan View Post
OEM clutches aren't that cheap and considering he has probably done less than 20k tuned it is unlikely that it will last that long. Considering the labour cost on top, it is best to do it right first time. I've learnt that the hard way I'm lucky that I can DIY but it is a ballache.
+1 clutch disc, pressure plate, DMF, release bearing etc. It all adds up making replacing an OEM clutch quite expensive. With labour at around £250 a go; do you risk not replacing one part and find that you need to drop the gearbox out again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phil200tdi View Post
Not to mention someone to speak to with any issues...

For £250 I'd probably get them to fit mine..
Does the fitting price include the one time aluminium bolts and other bits?

£250 is in the ball park of what I paid in labour on the clutch? It might also be worth considering replacing the release bearing depending on mileage. It's pretty cheap and worth doing for peace of mind.

21 51 7 564 027 Release module ~ Ä52.50
23 00 0 417 164 Set of alu. screws manual gearbox Ä6.55
+ DP/Exhaust gaskets + exhaust bolts (so possible another £20-30)
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      03-07-2013, 05:31 PM   #52
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335rocks, I'm surprised you still have the DMF, for what it's worth it seems a good idea to change it out while the box is off?

Spec are listing a hybrid option on the spec 2+ that uses spec 3 friction material on the full face spec 2 clutch for better wear and smoother engagement, for $75.

We could do with finding out if the idle can be adjusted via inpa...
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      03-07-2013, 06:17 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by doughboy View Post
335rocks, I'm surprised you still have the DMF, for what it's worth it seems a good idea to change it out while the box is off?

Spec are listing a hybrid option on the spec 2+ that uses spec 3 friction material on the full face spec 2 clutch for better wear and smoother engagement, for $75.

We could do with finding out if the idle can be adjusted via inpa...
The market was a little different 1.5 year ago when I looked at this and the low bite point for the ACT and that other high BHP users reporting slipping with RBs put me off that. A few users in the US reported premature failures on the Spec, so at the time the HPF looked like the best option. Now I'm not so sure. I holds the power fine, I'm just not super happy with the driveability experience. The judder ruins the pleasure and doesn't give you the control confidence you want?

My DMF is okay as I'm not running RB's yet, so I'm nowhere near what an RB powered car would be running. Also I didn't change my DMF when the clutch was fitted, so I saved a little money there. When it was changed at 56K my car had only experienced a tiny bit of clutch slip so the flywheel looked fine and wasn't damaged. I think Marcel's experience with replacing the DMF and still getting judder proved that my judder wasn't caused by not changing the DMF.

I might bump up the power a little when I get the oil cooler fitted as this is starting to restrict power on hot track days and running a little hotter that I would like. With the PROcede I could always drop it to a different map with less boost, so it was manageable. Alternatively I could lift off a little so I'll give COBB a try and see how that drives.
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      03-08-2013, 04:32 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 335rocks View Post
So it's barely bedded in. I remember the first trip I took after it was fitted and I was like OMG - a tad on the heavy side and it took full concentration not to stall it or do a smooth start. Doing a quick getaway at a set of lights was tricky for the first 5-7K and it's only now that it's getting more controllable. I'm not too worried about welding it as I don't do any drag starts, but in hindsight it's maybe a bit much to expect the OEM DMF to take the abuse of 500BHP/700NM. Definitely something to think about if I go down the RB route.
It is barely bedded in but it is a nightmare to drive in start stop traffic. The ACT I had was almost as heavy so that isn't the problem. In fact I'm a bit miffed after seeing the HPF youtube video and their 'smooth as butter' BS. I got caught up in the hype of the ACT and then the HPF, and was put off by stories from Spec users on other platforms. Looking back, it seems I've fecked up quite bad when it comes to clutches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 335rocks View Post
Have you got access to a lift as I would find doing this on axle stands a bit tricky. Man handling the gearbox is a two man job. Isn't the idle a map thing or can you do this in INPA? With COBB I would think that this shouldn't be too hard. I got a COBB sitting on my shelf ready to be fitted as soon as I have fitted my ER oil cooler and a few other bits.
I've got access to a lift and tools on the weekends and managed to do it within a day last time which was my first ever clutch change. This time around it should be much easier. As far as I know, INPA is the only way to change the idle speed but I've definitely heard it has been done. Once all this is done then I'm going to fabricate my own Setrab Oil Cooler setup in place of the OEM one.

Fingers crossed guys but it looks like I've found a Spec flywheel so will be doing my own import.
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      03-08-2013, 04:36 AM   #55
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I've had some tech replies from David Norton at SPEC.

First point of interest is N54 flywheels changed from 8 hole to 6 hole after Jan 09 build, so that's a point to be aware of.

Second point is the variety of SPEC models.

They make clutches that will work with OE flywheels....and flywheels that will work with OE clutches.

BUT their clutches that go with their own flywheels are very different, and not compatible with either OE item.

Theire paired clutch/flywheel combos are a lot better drive and engagement / pedal force wise, they have their own non-SAC (non self adjusting clutch mech) which is lighter and simpler and gives higher clamping force with less pedal force.

Also available only with the clutch/FW combo is the $75 'enhanced hybrid option' which is a full faced cross of the st3+ and 2+ compounds. It (quote) offers greater wear life and smoother engagement over the standard st2+.

So it seems buying the paired SPEC clutch / FW combo rather than the OE compatible versions will offer a better solution?

Hmmm..

I'm about to push the button on this while my brother is in the US to hand carry it back....

Darren Wood have quoted 3hrs/£150 to fit it.
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      03-08-2013, 06:22 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux View Post
I'm also in contact with a well-reknowned German tuner right now who has recently developed a single mass steel flywheel. Apparently very well done, balanced and everything, car's supposed to run even quieter than with the stock setup (has been tested on a 600hp 1M Coupť). I might go with this, depending on the price which I do not know yet.

Alpina_B3_Lux
Ok update on the price - let's just forget this option. I'm always surprised at these astronomical prices from German tuners, apparently my learning curve is not really good there. Let's just say its far beyond 1.000 £.

Anyway, doughboy: You said that Spec stated their flywheels should also work with other clutches. Does that now mean I can just replace my OEM flywheel with the Spec steel single mass and call it a day? I'd really like to keep the HPF in spite of the judder, as it's been f***ing expensive.

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      03-08-2013, 06:37 AM   #57
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I'm waiting on a re-confirmation from SPEC.

But it seems clear from the parts lists that you can buy:

a) StageX clutch to fit OE design flywheel
b) Steel or ally flywheels to fit OE design clutches

or

c) Complete StageX & Ally/steel flywheel kits not compatible with clutch or flywheel.

So, yes, in answer if you have any make of clutch on an OE flywheel, the you can buy a SPEC flywheel to fit an OE clutch (in theory)

I'll update when I have a response, but either way you'd be best to confirm with david3@specclutch.com (David)
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      03-08-2013, 06:42 AM   #58
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So Doughboy..

What exactly are you about to buy?

Aluminium FW
Spec Hybrid Stage 2+/3+ Clutch

Do you have the part numbers?
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      03-08-2013, 06:49 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux View Post
Ok update on the price - let's just forget this option. I'm always surprised at these astronomical prices from German tuners, apparently my learning curve is not really good there. Let's just say its far beyond 1.000 £.

Anyway, doughboy: You said that Spec stated their flywheels should also work with other clutches. Does that now mean I can just replace my OEM flywheel with the Spec steel single mass and call it a day? I'd really like to keep the HPF in spite of the judder, as it's been f***ing expensive.

Alpina_B3_Lux
Not all clutches work with the OEM style Spec flywheel. The ACT has rivets near the centre of the pressure plate which touches the Spec SMF which means they can't be used together. The HPF doesn't have this in its design so should work.

I'm totally with you on the HPF, it judders like a mofo but it is too expensive for me to change.

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      03-08-2013, 08:39 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phil200tdi View Post
So Doughboy..

What exactly are you about to buy?

Aluminium FW
Spec Hybrid Stage 2+/3+ Clutch

Do you have the part numbers?
See 335i (Feb 09 on) parts here: http://www.specclutch.com/cars/BMW/335/2010/Single

The upper half is the non-SAC clutches that have to be paired with a SPEC billet (alloy or steel) flywheel, you can select the hybrid option also with these combos. The lower half of the page is the OE compatible clutches and flywheels.

Read the 'comments' section with each.

I'm looking at:

Flywheel SB53A-3 and St2+ Clutch SB533H-2 plus the hybrid option.

You may also notice they only give tested torque figures with their own clutch/flywheel pairs, the OE compatible ones don't quote any such figures......
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      03-08-2013, 09:00 AM   #61
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I'll probably go for:

Aluminum SB53A-2 $579.00

Stage 2+ SB533H-2 $839.00

+ Enhanced Hybrid Option for Stage 2+ Kits $79.00


How big is your brothers baggage allowance!!
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      03-08-2013, 03:19 PM   #62
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How big is your brothers baggage allowance!!
Lol, spec weigh the lot at 14kg, he's got 23kg allowance, but he's a bloke away on his own so only takes a few t-shirts, a pair of jeans and some pants.....

So is yours a pre Jan 09?
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      03-08-2013, 03:48 PM   #63
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Yep Nov 08

Heard back from the UK dist, prices as follows:

SB533H-2 £646.34 each
SB53S-2 £484.82 each

Above prices are with 15% discount, prices inc 20% VAT, exchange rate has dropped quite a bit since my original quote, just in case you wondering why it was more expensive.

If all 5 pieces are bought at the same time, They can knock £100 from the total price.
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      03-08-2013, 07:58 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idnan View Post
It is barely bedded in but it is a nightmare to drive in start stop traffic. The ACT I had was almost as heavy so that isn't the problem. In fact I'm a bit miffed after seeing the HPF youtube video and their 'smooth as butter' BS. I got caught up in the hype of the ACT and then the HPF, and was put off by stories from Spec users on other platforms. Looking back, it seems I've fecked up quite bad when it comes to clutches.
I thought it was just me because I didn't swap the DMF until Marcel had the same issue with a new DMF. So with 3 people experiencing massive clutch judder I'm also a bit miffed about the youtube video. Definitely doesn't live up to the sales pitch. It shouldn't take 15K to bed in to make it driveable in 1st/reverse. I remember the first couple of thousand miles and I agree with you that it's a nightmare in traffic. You quickly learn to put it in neutral and I didn't have much confidence in it for a while.

Quote:
Originally Posted by idnan View Post
I've got access to a lift and tools on the weekends and managed to do it within a day last time which was my first ever clutch change. This time around it should be much easier. Once all this is done then I'm going to fabricate my own Setrab Oil Cooler setup in place of the OEM one.
Nice, I have considered using something like Pit Start self service garages and do it myself. I'm just a bit worried that I'll leave myself stranded because of a part issue or I forget to bring some tools. I got an ER Sports oil cooler to fit as it came with all the brackets, grills and adapters for the oil filter housing. I also bought the ducting for the SE bumper on the off-chance I can butcher it a bit to make it fit my Msport bumper. We'll see what an angle grinder or cutting disc on a Dremel can do to make this happen.

I would have gone down the route of Setrab if I had a VK Motorwerks bracket, but I couldn't really say no to the price I got the ER cooler for.
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      03-11-2013, 11:47 AM   #65
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Yep Nov 08

Heard back from the UK dist, prices as follows:

SB533H-2 £646.34 each
SB53S-2 £484.82 each
Phil,

£1130 (plus about £50 for the $79 hybrid option) is a great deal in the UK.

What's their lead time?

As I'm planning a hand-collection in the US, I'd forgotten about local US taxes, which adds 7% in Georgia, so all in I'd only save £100 by importing it myself (and thats with 10% discount off list AND ZERO shipping, hand carried in person), on a major purchase I don't think that £100 is enough saving considering the risk of import duty if my brother get collared and lack of local backup if there are any problems.

I would prefer to buy it in the UK - are you up for it?
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      03-11-2013, 02:28 PM   #66
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Yes, But those prices were on the basis of 3 x flywheels and 2 x clutches..

Perhaps I should start a new thread in the classifieds for a group buy?

Would you have them fit it too? Or want inc postage? My perspective is if they supply and fit they're much more likely to deal with warranty claims...
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